software and PH calcs

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Turfgrass

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I finally got a Hanna PH meter and I'm looking forward to getting my mash PH dialed in. My first go at it and I had similar PH reading to my old meter that I dropped and broke. My target PH using EZ-Water was 5.4 and I ended up around 4.8 twenty minutes into the mash. Phosphoric acid 85% was used in addition to salts. Any one else having issues with their target mash PH? I recently purchased BeerSmith, so maybe their calcs are more accurate. EZ Water is nice, but I don't like how you add the grains to the program. I haven't had a water test completed in a couple years, so the starting PH might have been lower and the Phosphoric brought me to low. What do you think? Thanks in advance.
 

VikeMan

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I recently purchased BeerSmith, so maybe their calcs are more accurate.
One thing you should know about BeerSmith... its default ph model is MpH version 3. There's is a newer and better version of MpH (v 4.2) available in spreadsheet format at MpH Water Calculator v4.2
 

VikeMan

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I thought Brad corrected that discrepancy in an update a while back.
I don't use BeerSmith, but I downloaded the trial to check. "MPH 3 Model"
 

Silver_Is_Money

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You didn't list your grist components and their weights, or your water analyticals and volumes, but only the most robust of Caramel/Crystal and Deep Roasted malt ladened Stouts or Porters are ever going to be remotely capable of approaching a mash pH of 4.8. I've only ever heard of a recorded mash pH of 4.8 from someone whom I trust once in my life. And I've been brewing since the late 80's.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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If alternative mash pH assistant software is being tossed into the mix, I might as well toss my 'Mash Made Easy' version 10.00 into the mix.
 

marc1

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I finally got a Hanna PH meter and I'm looking forward to getting my mash PH dialed in. My first go at it and I had similar PH reading to my old meter that I dropped and broke. My target PH using EZ-Water was 5.4 and I ended up around 4.8 twenty minutes into the mash. Phosphoric acid 85% was used in addition to salts. Any one else having issues with their target mash PH? I recently purchased BeerSmith, so maybe their calcs are more accurate. EZ Water is nice, but I don't like how you add the grains to the program. I haven't had a water test completed in a couple years, so the starting PH might have been lower and the Phosphoric brought me to low. What do you think? Thanks in advance.
I just downloaded EZwater (Version 3.0.2) to check it out and don't see Phosphoric Acid as an option. Am I missing it?

How did you determine the amount of acid to add?

I agree that posting your grist, water salt additions, water makeup, and water volumes would help troubleshoot.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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EZ Water has not (to my knowledge) been maintained or upgraded for many years now, so I have not actively looked at it in a very long time. I just looked at it and (as for @marc1) I only see Acid Malt and Lactic Acid as acidification choices. If it has a Phosphoric Acid option I also seem to be missing it.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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An addition of 85% Phosphoric acid would be on the order of only about 77% of the mL volume of addition computed for 88% Lactic Acid (when within the most common of targeted mash pH range).
 
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Turfgrass

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My mistake about the phosphoric acid being on EZ Water. Confused it with Beersmith. I'll have to check out some of the other program calculators. My mash is 4lb. 2-row, 4lb. Maris Otter, 1.5lb. Flaked Wheat, 2lb. White Wheat and 1/2lb. Honey Malt. I just upgraded to BS 3.1, so I'll have to look up the Bru' N Water option. I assume you download Bru'N first?


With that grist the BS calculator has me at 5.3 PH with my salts added and 5ml of phosphoric acid. Bringing my adjusted mash ph to 5.33.

Next time I will check the mash ph after 10 minutes of the salts being mixed in before I add any acid.
 
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marc1

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My mistake about the phosphoric acid being on EZ Water. Confused it with Beersmith. I'll have to check out some of the other program calculators. My mash is 4lb. 2-row, 4lb. Maris Otter, 1.5lb. Flaked Wheat, 2lb. White Wheat and 1/2lb. Honey Malt. I just upgraded to BS 3.1, so I'll have to look up the Bru' N Water option. I assume you download Bru'N first?


With that grist the BS calculator has me at 5.3 PH with my salts added and 5ml of phosphoric acid. Bringing my adjusted mash ph to 5.33.

Next time I will check the mash ph after 10 minutes of the salts being mixed in before I add any acid.
What was your water volume, salts added, and starting water profile?
 

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An addition of 85% Phosphoric acid would be on the order of only about 77% of the mL volume of addition computed for 88% Lactic Acid (when within the most common of targeted mash pH range).
Say that again?

I use EZ Water, and use phosphoric acid in some of my brews (not lactic). Are you saying it's more effective? Wondering if I should fudge it a little (I use 10% in that option box, maybe it should be 8 or 12%)? I know it's all estimated anyhow but if I can get a little closer, all the better.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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Say that again?

I use EZ Water, and use phosphoric acid in some of my brews (not lactic). Are you saying it's more effective? Wondering if I should fudge it a little (I use 10% in that option box, maybe it should be 8 or 12%)? I know it's all estimated anyhow but if I can get a little closer, all the better.
Does your version of EZ Water support Phosphoric Acid? Or are you only seeing Lactic Acid and Acid Malt?

At a target mash pH of specifically and exclusively 5.40, roughly 10.5 mL of 10% concentration Phosphoric Acid should be the 'effective' acidity equivalent of 1 mL of 88% Lactic Acid.
 

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Does your version of EZ Water support Phosphoric Acid? Or are you only seeing Lactic Acid and Acid Malt?
Looks like just lactic acid & acidulated malt. Version is 3.0.2, still on their site. I dropped the 88% down to 10%, and then just used it as "acid" not considering that the type made much difference in the calculations
.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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Looks like just lactic acid & acidulated malt. Version is 3.0.2, still on their site. I dropped the 88% down to 10%, and then just used it as "acid" not considering that the type made much difference in the calculations
.
Seems like it might be time for a spreadsheet change. But then I'm biased...
 

Kjokkakim

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My mistake about the phosphoric acid being on EZ Water. Confused it with Beersmith. I'll have to check out some of the other program calculators. My mash is 4lb. 2-row, 4lb. Maris Otter, 1.5lb. Flaked Wheat, 2lb. White Wheat and 1/2lb. Honey Malt. I just upgraded to BS 3.1, so I'll have to look up the Bru' N Water option. I assume you download Bru'N first?


With that grist the BS calculator has me at 5.3 PH with my salts added and 5ml of phosphoric acid. Bringing my adjusted mash ph to 5.33.

Next time I will check the mash ph after 10 minutes of the salts being mixed in before I add any acid.
I'm using Brewfather.
That grist and 5ml of 85% phosphoric acid Brewfather calculates to pH 5.21. I still haven't added salts and don't know the pH of your water. My source have pH 8.0.

If you have pH 7.0 and added 5 grams each of calcium and gypsum pH goes below 5.
 

Silver_Is_Money

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Your water as given does not Cation/Anion balance, and gives a bad check. If your analysis was from Ward Labs, then your SO4 is actually 36 ppm, and for that it balances with a good check. For Ward Labs the SO4-S value (which reports only the sulfur or 'S' component) must always be multiplied by 3 in order to convert it into straight SO4. Of course, nitrate and potassium reporting would nail this critical balance down better. Ward's NO3-N nitrate value is similarly reporting only 'N' and needs to be multiplied (off the top of my head) by 4.4 in order for it to report as straight NO3.
.SO4 at 36 ppm.png
 
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Turfgrass

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Your water as given does not Cation/Anion balance, and gives a bad check. If your analysis was from Ward Labs, then your SO4 is actually 36 ppm, and for that it balances with a good check. For Ward Labs the SO4-S value (which reports only the sulfur or 'S' component) must always be multiplied by 3 in order to convert it into straight SO4. Of course, nitrate and potassium reporting would nail this critical balance down better. Ward's NO3-N nitrate value is similarly reporting only 'N' and needs to be multiplied (off the top of my head) by 4.4 in order for it to report as straight NO3.
.View attachment 721599
okay, i already had made the conversion with 12, so the value should be 4. My Ward Lab report has K at 2 and Nitrate at 1.9 SAFE

I just added four to the calculation and I still have a bad check.
 
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Silver_Is_Money

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okay, i already had made the conversion with 12, so the value should be 4. My Ward Lab report has K at 2 and Nitrate at 1.9 SAFE

I just added four to the calculation and I still have a bad check.
If your water report now looks like this thumbnail, then all you can do is move forward and chalk the bad check up to Ward Labs.
Water Analysis.png
 

marc1

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Was your meter calibrated right before use?
 
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