Soft crash questions

[CyberFox]

I have a few questions about soft crashing to remove yeast:

1. I know that soft crashing ale yeast in the upper 50s removes most of the yeast, but ale yeast can also be fermented at 60 degrees or lower. How would you soft crash an ale yeast fermented at 60 degrees?

2. Can lager yeasts be soft crashed if fermented in the 60s or would their resilience to cold temperatures prevent that?

3. Is it the temperature drop that matters for a soft crash or the specific temperature for a given yeast?


Thanks in advance!

 

[hotbeer]

Don't forget about time.

When people talk about cold crashing and then also say it took 3 or 4 days, I wonder if it was more about time than temperature. Maybe a little of both.

First off I don't do lagers, so I can't answer your question within that regard.

But I've had plenty of ales be cloudy up until the day they weren't cloudy. And I don't cold crash at all.

 

[CyberFox]

Don't forget about time.

When people talk about cold crashing and then also say it took 3 or 4 days, I wonder if it was more about time than temperature. Maybe a little of both.

First off I don't do lagers, so I can't answer your question within that regard.

But I've had plenty of ales be cloudy up until the day they weren't cloudy. And I don't cold crash at all.

I'm mainly talking about soft crashing instead of cold crashing. As far as cold crashing goes, I imagine that the lower the temperature, the less time is needed (and vice versa).

 

[Dland]

Time alone will do the trick, but if the goal is to get yeast to drop out of suspension, cold crashing results in clear beer much sooner.

What is the benefit of "soft crashing" ? Likely as not is good for certain styles of beer, I would be interested to know for what types it is best practice.

 

[CyberFox]

Time alone will do the trick, but if the goal is to get yeast to drop out of suspension, cold crashing results in clear beer much sooner.

What is the benefit of "soft crashing" ? Likely as not is good for ceartain styles of beer, I would be interested to know for what types it is best practice.

It's mainly meant for dry hopping, so IPAs (especially NEIPAs) are the main style it pertains to. The idea of doing a "soft crash" is that the upper 50s is cold enough to drop yeast in suspension, but also warm enough to dry hop. It also mitigates hop creep and many consider dry hopping without the presence of yeast to be superior.

 

[Dland]

Thanks, if I ever brew a NEIPA I'll keep that in mind. I often do a post whirlpool hop step at around 160F, usually whole hops.

Dry hopping adds a certain raw, florid hop taste one can not easily achieved in any other way, but does add to complications kegging that I'm too lazy to deal with. ;]

 

[CyberFox]

I've found out that the soft crash temperature I'd need to target mainly depends on the yeast strain, not just the temperature drop. It also sounds like I would need to straight up cold crash in the 30s to "soft crash" with lager yeast. Kind of defeats the purpose since I would be dry hopping at the soft crash temp and I've heard that most people don't get the dry hop goodness in the 30s. I've also recently heard some accounts of not getting the best results from dry hopping below 60 even. It sounds like the hops would likely drop out of suspension and not contribute much (it might depend on the hop, but I'm not about to test it out). You'd probably need to rouse the hops from the bottom with CO2 like they do in pro breweries, which would be a pain in the ass (to me at least). Overall, I'm just going to keep it simple (and old skool ) and continue dry hopping between 65-68 without a soft crash. It's always good to push the boundaries and learn new techniques, but it's also good to not forget the fundamentals and just do what works.

 

[Callacave]

I think you're confusing fermentation temperature and crashing temp. When the yeast are done fermenting it doesn't really matter what temp it's at because a lot of them will naturally crash, even at warmer temps. Soft crashing helps speed that up. Cold crashing even faster.

 

[VikeMan]

Kind of defeats the purpose since I would be dry hopping at the soft crash temp and I've heard that most people don't get the dry hop goodness in the 30s.

You can get very good dry hop results at low temps (even in the 30s). I recommend giving this a read:

A Case for Short And Cool Dry Hopping - Scott Janish

scottjanish.com

 

[CyberFox]

I think you're confusing fermentation temperature and crashing temp. When the yeast are done fermenting it doesn't really matter what temp it's at because a lot of them will naturally crash, even at warmer temps. Soft crashing helps speed that up. Cold crashing even faster.

Confusing fermentation temp and crashing temp? I don't follow. I know that yeast will eventually floc at warmer temperatures, but the point of a soft crash is to speed it up so that there will be no yeast present during the 55-60 degree dry hop. Less flocculant yeasts like US-05 can take almost two weeks to floc at warmer temperatures. If I wanted to dry hop without the presence of yeast, cold crash, and keg within 14 days, a soft crash would be required.

 

[CyberFox]

You can get very good dry hop results at low temps (even in the 30s). I recommend giving this a read:

A Case for Short And Cool Dry Hopping - Scott Janish

scottjanish.com

I've read that article (and others from Janish) and a lot of the "'Northeast' style IPA" thread on here. I've also read a lot of other threads where many people don't think that dry hopping cold gives the best results. From what I know (and what others have said), when hops sink to the bottom, you don't get much extraction from them. In order to keep them in suspension at low temperatures, you'd need to rouse them with CO2 from the bottom. I don't have that ability and I think that many great beers have been made by dry hopping in the 60s (or even room temp) for up to 2 weeks even. There are clearly many ways to go about it, which makes it all that more interesting.

Edit: A soft crash isn't necessary as long as the beer is kept cold after dry hopping. Warming the beer up again could cause hop creep. I imagine many breweries that dry hop warm first soft crash the yeast to harvest it, then warm it back up to dry hop. Due to no yeast being present during the dry hop, there is no risk of hop creep. Over time, it seems that breweries just started dry hopping at the soft crash temp instead of warming it back up. This likely also reduces hop burn. Breweries also have the ability to rouse the hops with CO2 from the bottom though. I'll try soft crashing and dry hopping at 60 degrees and see what happens.

 

[CyberFox]

@VikeMan I've done more research (always researching! ) and according to this article it sounds like dry hopping can lead to an extra 30-45 days of fermentation. That kind of blows me away. I imagine if I kept it cold after dry hopping, it wouldn't be much of a problem since I'm not warming it up again. Then again, I'd like to do what's considered best practice.

In your experience, do you get good aroma from dry hopping at 58 degrees (compared to 68) or even 60 degrees like I keep hearing about from pro breweries? My concern is that the hops would just sink into the trub and not give good extraction.

 

[VikeMan]

I imagine if I kept it cold after dry hopping, it wouldn't be much of a problem since I'm not warming it up again.

Yes, keeping the beer cold can help prevent hop creep.

In your experience, do you get good aroma from dry hopping at 58 degrees (compared to 68) or even 60 degrees like I keep hearing about from pro breweries? My concern is that the hops would just sink into the trub and not give good extraction.

Yes, I have found good hop aroma at cool and cold dry hop temperatures. If you're concerned about hops sinking into the trub, figure out a way to keep them suspended. Nowadays I usually dry hop in the fermenter (via a hop dropper), so the hops are free to sink. I haven't noticed any problems caused by that.

 

[CyberFox]

Yes, keeping the beer cold can help prevent hop creep.



Yes, I have found good hop aroma at cool and cold dry hop temperatures. If you're concerned about hops sinking into the trub, figure out a way to keep them suspended. Nowadays I usually dry hop in the fermenter (via a hop dropper), so the hops are free to sink. I haven't noticed any problems caused by that.

Thanks. I'll give it a go next time. I can't remember why 58 is such a prevalent number for a soft crash, but do you think it would make any difference dry hopping at 58 vs 60 degrees?

 

[VikeMan]

I can't remember why 58 is such a prevalent number for a soft crash, but do you think it would make any difference dry hopping at 58 vs 60 degrees?

Very little, I suspect.

 

[day_trippr]

Reading some of the Janish-related literature while I was on the Brewers' PUP List when I started brewing again I started going with a two day "crash" to 50°F then dry hopping at that same temperature for my neipas and wcipas. I've been very pleased with the result - but if I was to change the temperature I'd go even cooler, not warmer...

Cheers!

 

[CyberFox]

Reading some of the Janish-related literature while I was on the Brewers' PUP List when I started brewing again I started going with a two day "crash" to 50°F then dry hopping at that same temperature for my neipas and wcipas. I've been very pleased with the result - but if I was to change the temperature I'd go even cooler, not warmer...

Cheers!

Definitely good to know! Do you rouse with CO2? I've always heard that hops sinking to the bottom was a bad thing, but I really have no idea.

 

[day_trippr]

I ferment in 6.5 gallon Italian glass carboys and once I've dropped most of the yeast I don't really want to swirl anything. And when I started with the soft-crash thing I noted right away that dropping hop pellets into cool-ish beer sends them straight to the bottom where they sit almost intact and the extract efficiency goes straight into the toilet.

So I started pulverizing the pellets into a coarse powder which is a game changer wrt extracting hop goodness without rousing...

Dry Hopping - grinding your pellets first?

I tried to do some searching regarding this topic, but came up empty. Listening to a podcast yesterday on a pretty routine dry hop technique used in commercial breweries- that is, to blow some CO2 into the tank from the bottom to blow the hops back up into solution, increasing the contact...

www.homebrewtalk.com

Cheers!

 

[CyberFox]

I ferment in 6.5 gallon Italian glass carboys and once I've dropped most of the yeast I don't really want to swirl anything. And when I started with the soft-crash thing I noted right away that dropping hop pellets into cool-ish beer sends them straight to the bottom where they sit almost intact and the extract efficiency goes straight into the toilet.

So I started pulverizing the pellets into a coarse powder which is a game changer wrt extracting hop goodness without rousing...

Dry Hopping - grinding your pellets first?

I tried to do some searching regarding this topic, but came up empty. Listening to a podcast yesterday on a pretty routine dry hop technique used in commercial breweries- that is, to blow some CO2 into the tank from the bottom to blow the hops back up into solution, increasing the contact...

www.homebrewtalk.com

Cheers!

Pulverizing pellets...now that's thinking outside the box! Sounds like a plan. Thanks.

 

[day_trippr]

It's just coping with reality. If there was a practical way to remove the dropped yeast I'd be all over that. Folks running conicals that can actually dump yeast have a huge advantage in that regard...

Cheers!

 

[CyberFox]

It's just coping with reality. If there was a practical way to remove the dropped yeast I'd be all over that. Folks running conicals that can actually dump yeast have a huge advantage in that regard...

Cheers!

Yes, indeed. Maybe someday we won't have to worry about vegetal matter at all with SPECTRUM Hop Extract. Might become the standard in the future.

 

[Dland]

Interesting little rabbit hole this discussion is, and not implying without merit. However after reading all this, I suspect there are similar ways to achieve equivalent results, flavor wise.

A lot of variations in brewing practices stem from brewers working with what they have to achieve desired results.

What seems like extra work in one brewer's system may be the only way another brewer with different set up can achieve the results they are after.

Brew on ! ;]

 

[day_trippr]

Well...I just spun out 20 gallons of neipa, using roughly 8 ounces of pellets per 5 gallons, so figure $10-12 of premium pellets per 5 gallons.

$25 per 5 gallons simply for the convenience isn't going to happen for me...

Cheers!

 

[Dland]

That's cool, not sure how that relates to my comment, and admittedly, not sure it was supposed to. ;]

 

[day_trippr]

I was replying to @CyberFox and the SPECTRUM extract proposition...which is punitively priced as it stands...

Cheers!

 

[CyberFox]

Well...I just spun out 20 gallons of neipa, using roughly 8 ounces of pellets per 5 gallons, so figure $10-12 of premium pellets per 5 gallons.

$25 per 5 gallons simply for the convenience isn't going to happen for me...

Cheers!

No, SPECTRUM's too expensive for me too. I'm just saying that it could become the standard in the years to come, just as pellets became the standard after whole hops. If it were the same price and had the same variety as pellets, it's all I'd use.

 

[day_trippr]

If that extract was available at a competitive price I expect everyone would use it as it could go a long way towards helping avoid oxygen exposure: it'd be easy to dilute with some beer then inject into a keg, for instance...

Cheers!