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Soda siphon without disposable cartridges

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MagicMike

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You are the man! Brilliant, simply brilliant. Now the only thing he forgot to mention was the tip of the gun and what it's called. Im going to go ahead and try and message him if I can but in the meantime if anyone sees the video can they please elaborate on the setup of the gun? thanks

P.S. He states the 12 gram co2 cartridges actually fit but they release more co2 than necessary, I guess that question got solved!
 

KevinM

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That seems to be a good idea. I see what looks like air hose connections you can get at your local hardware store. So pricewise, assuming all you have is a co2 tank and nothing else. It looks like the end is just a typical barbed connector.
60 for a soda regulator (beer regulator won't work in this situation, unless you pressurize, shake, pressurize, etc)
60 for a seltzer bottle (isi brushed aluminum 1-liter seltzer bottle)
estimating 20-40 for the connector pieces (based on prior piping purchases for other reasons).
-ball lock (actually called a quick connect fitting) 5
-ball lock connectors 3
-shutoff valve (10)
-brass barbed fitting (5)

Admittedly, the price is still pretty high for me, and even though I have that seltzer bottle and even the co2 tank, I'd probably buy the cap for $15 or a used keg for $40.

Because of this, I'm curious, why do you want to go through all the trouble and expense? It sounds like you don't already have a seltzer bottle (I thought you did based on an earlier post) and any co2 loss of repeated opening of a plastic 2 liter is pennies. If I ran a black tie bar, I'd use this setup in the back and use the seltzer bottles during serving. Other than, just maybe you're an engineer and want to find a way, simply because there should be some way.
 

MagicMike

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I don't really know to be honest, it's something that I can see myself using it as something useful in some scenarios over the 2L PET bottles.

- I ran out of PET bottles (as its unwise to keep using the same plastic over long periods of time) and I won't plan on buying any PET bottles since ill be making my own soda.
- Take the seltzer with me camping, people tend to leave the bottle cap left opened and therefore it becomes flat (this is a general idea but a factual one)
- (This is an important one), every drip of water is carbonated to it's fullest, where-as the PET bottle it gradually loses CO2 in the opening and closing of the bottle.
- Aluminum can tend to leave it running colder in room temperature dining room whereas PET bottle can possible get warmer alot quicker.
- Can be used as a secondary unit in case I ever break my carbonator cap.
- And it looks alot nicer in top of my dinner table instead of a PET bottle.

Might sound silly, and they are probably are but whether it's useful or not it's definately a better alternative to a sodastream and I'm sure people who have converted from the sodastream to co2 tank are probably still happy owners of their tucked-away sodastream somewhere.

P.S So just to clarify, it's just a typical barbed connector? By typical you mean standard? what is the standard? You would be pretty surprised here in Oshawa the word "typical" is anything but typical. Thanks Kevin
 

KevinM

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Okay. I'm going with the engineering "Because I can (and it's really not that expensive if you have most of the parts)." I definitely agree with the co2 loss with the pet bottle, which is why I like that upside down, ball lock idea. Still trying to figure out how I want to make it look, (just so it doesn't look like an upside down bottle, or a oversized hummingbird feeder). And also looks (which is why I want it not to look like a humming bird feeder on a block of wood.)
I usually buy a bottle of soda water just for the bottle and reuse that for a while and replace.
I'd argue about the temperature due to the better thermal conductivity of thick aluminum (it's not double wall insulated so heat goes through to the water pretty quickly) vs thin plastic wall thickness as an insulator since that gets iffy and would require research.

That's true too, that even with this build, you can bring along a paintball tank and regulator camping. You'll want a regular paintball tank regulator and you can hook that directly to the hose and valve assembly. (That way, you also don't have to use it with your regular tank.) I don't go camping and I have that 2.5 pound tank that travels well. In any instance where hiking/camping would be involved, you'd really want light.

As for me, I'd probably build that and use it with my isi whipped cream chargers more than my soda siphon. I'd need an N2O tank though, and I don't know the feasibility of getting one... but.... if I could, then I could experiment more with espumas and whipped creams without feeling like I'm wasting cartridges. Going to start seeing what it would require for a small tank, or if that's possible.

When I mean typical, I mean that it's a barbed connector that you should be able to find in the plumbing or air compressor section of the hardware store. I couldn't tell the diameter, but I don't expect that you would have to order the parts online. It's helpful to have a bigbox store though, rather than a tiny hardware store.
 

MagicMike

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Ok thanks for the information, the hunting begins!


P.S. Forgot to mention the most important recipe of all for the use of seltzer bottle, and that is to make cocktails!!! nothing beats a freshly forced water sprayer when adding it to the liquor!!!
 

TheKeggingPart

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Sorry to be so late to the party but there is now a solution to the OP's question. Those ICI Soda Siphons happen to have the same threading as keg couplers. This allows me to attach a gas-side Kegging Part. I've been using it pretty regularly to mix up batches of soda in my soda siphon.

I'm very wary of the "jam it in" solution. I'd hate to see one of these things blow up on someone. I've found that the check valve in the soda siphon needs at least 20 lbs of pressure on it to allow gas through. I tried removing / disabling it and succeeded. Only occasionally my siphon's gasket now slips and sends a stream of liquid out near the top. It's better not to mess with such things. The soda comes out fizzier if it's 50 - 100 PSI anyway. I prefer 50 but one of my friends was adamant that anything under 100 was a waste of their time.

Here's a picture of The Kegging Part in action:

siphon.jpg
 

pfps

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Does anyone have more information on the "gas-side Kegging Part" in the previous message in this thread, either ordering information or size and threading information?

I have a siphon and would love to be able to hook it up this way.


peter
 

Atalanta

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It seems that the gizmo has been discontinued by the seller. Which is a bummer since I've been looking for years.

However. If it just a matter of pressure, then I'll have to experiment with hookups.
 

Atalanta

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MagicMike and KevinM - I'd been looking for years and wish I'd seen this thread back then. I have one of those lovely glass mesh siphons which is fun to bring out for parties. I've wanted a way to hook it to a tank for the sheer cost of those cartridges.

Gave up and went with a carbonator cap. There are now caps with a barb and machined for both the gas in and liquid out couplers. Got some and added a piece of tubing to reach the bottom of the PET bottle. Makes charging much nicer, no upside down. I just picked up a liquid out fitting. Added hose and a picnic faucet. Promising. No opening the bottle to dispense.

I have to play with the pressure some, it's not dispensing at soda siphon strength.
 

Wagemage

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Atlanta,

Can you link to the barbed cap you are referring to?
 

pfps

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Atlanta,

Can you link to the barbed cap you are referring to?

I think that something like http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00V334SME/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 is what he meant. There are other sources as well.

I was also thinking of using this for dispensing, but my trials with a standard picnic party faucet resulted in too much pressure drop in the line with resultant foaming there. I plugged up the facuet outlet and drilled smaller holes, which worked somewhat but I'm not completely happy yet.

If anyone has got this to work well please let me know.
 
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Wagemage

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I have been using the mancan as a substitute for what we want. It is not cheap though. I saved about 50% buying direct from China over ebay though. You can get them in .5 and 1 gal growler sizes. Bit of a pain to detach the hoses though.

I have a bunch of the plastic carbinator Caps. Though the work for making a carbed beverage, they are not great for dispensing.
 

Atalanta

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I think that something like http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00V334SME/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 is what he meant. There are other sources as well.

I was also thinking of using this for dispensing, but my trials with a standard picnic party faucet resulted in too much pressure drop in the line with resultant foaming there. I plugged up the facuet outlet and drilled smaller holes, which worked somewhat but I'm not completely happy yet.

If anyone has got this to work well please let me know.
Sorry for not checking back for a LOOONNNNGGGG time. LOL

The link shown is very similar to what I purchased on eBay. It fits both gas in and liquid out ball lock taps. I have a 3' line with a party tap on the liquid out tap. It's starting to get a bit fussy (the gas in tap isn't playing nice) but that's OK since I'm now looking to expand to a corny keg.
 
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Atalanta

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I've since gone corny keg route (not long after my last post). In order to better force carbonate it, I got a carbonation stone and about 2' of tubing. I clamped it to the gas in pipe so when the gas is on, it's carbonating. Sure, you can buy a carbonation lid for a corny keg, but if you can reach in, you can attach it to the gas in short pipe. Heating the end of the tube in hot water will make it easier to slip on.
 

Frank Trotta

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Ok, so I followed what Thekeggingpart did up above. I purchased the ISI Stainless Soda Siphon, and a gas side keg part that threaded right on to the cartridge holder thread on the siphon. I used a 5lb tank with regulator set to 50lbs, and the bottle did not take a lot of CO2, nor did the water get nearly as carbonated as when I use the carbonator cap on a 1L plastic soda bottle. I shook vigorously, and even held upside down and tried to suck out any air in headspace prior to carbonating. I read how the C02 cartridges are 850psi, and that there is some type of valve inside the siphon that will restrict gas in below 20psi. Anyone know what the issue might be?

Edit: I will attempt to remove the lock ring and restriction valve on the siphon as seen in photo 1 attached this weekend. Will report back!
 

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Soda Warrior

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Ok, so I followed what Thekeggingpart did up above. I purchased the ISI Stainless Soda Siphon, and a gas side keg part that threaded right on to the cartridge holder thread on the siphon. I used a 5lb tank with regulator set to 50lbs, and the bottle did not take a lot of CO2, nor did the water get nearly as carbonated as when I use the carbonator cap on a 1L plastic soda bottle. I shook vigorously, and even held upside down and tried to suck out any air in headspace prior to carbonating. I read how the C02 cartridges are 850psi, and that there is some type of valve inside the siphon that will restrict gas in below 20psi. Anyone know what the issue might be?

Edit: I will attempt to remove the lock ring and restriction valve on the siphon as seen in photo 1 attached this weekend. Will report back!
Big coincidence. I'm trying to do the same thing as this thread and I bought a gas side keg adapter (for reference, it's a 5/8"-14 thread, took me ages to work that out before I was sure enough to buy the selzter and parts as I'm not a brewer).

I took my lock ring off when my ball arrived lock valve arrived this evening. After using a wide screwdriver anticlockwise with a spanner for torque, there is a plastic gasket underneath that slips off. To remove the pointy valve underneath I had to make a tool. Imagine the sort of tool you use to remove angle grinder discs but 2mm pins. I tried using a circlips tool but it started to bend.

I've put it back together now with the part still in situ and didn't take photos but to remove the valve you need to use two, 2mm circular bars at 10mm spacing and have a way to keep them aligned and apply torque to unscrew the valve anticlockwise. I had some 16mm aluminium rod which I cut, sanded the ends, marked a centre line, punched starting holes on the line to have the holes each 5mm from the centre of the rod, then drilled them using a drill press. I also drilled a central hole 4.5mm wide deep enough for the valve, but then realised 16mm is slightly too big to enter the valve but it worked anyway by inserting two 2mm drill bits in each hole blunt end first and then turned it using molegrips. I didn't really know the function of the valve at that point so I just put it back together.

I'm very keen to get this working but it's raining hard and my cylinder is in the shed do no more experiments for me tonight! Will be interested to know how you get on if you remove the valve, I haven't worked out how to bypass it yet, it may be a matter of just taking out the valve and then screwing down the lock ring but it might not reach deep enough, I'm not sure. There is a second plastic gasket with a hole in the middle, the sides of which cover the little metal hole visible on the outside of the outer 5/8" thread.
 

Frank Trotta

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Big coincidence. I'm trying to do the same thing as this thread and I bought a gas side keg adapter (for reference, it's a 5/8"-14 thread, took me ages to work that out before I was sure enough to buy the selzter and parts as I'm not a brewer).

I took my lock ring off when my ball arrived lock valve arrived this evening. After using a wide screwdriver anticlockwise with a spanner for torque, there is a plastic gasket underneath that slips off. To remove the pointy valve underneath I had to make a tool. Imagine the sort of tool you use to remove angle grinder discs but 2mm pins. I tried using a circlips tool but it started to bend.

I've put it back together now with the part still in situ and didn't take photos but to remove the valve you need to use two, 2mm circular bars at 10mm spacing and have a way to keep them aligned and apply torque to unscrew the valve anticlockwise. I had some 16mm aluminium rod which I cut, sanded the ends, marked a centre line, punched starting holes on the line to have the holes each 5mm from the centre of the rod, then drilled them using a drill press. I also drilled a central hole 4.5mm wide deep enough for the valve, but then realised 16mm is slightly too big to enter the valve but it worked anyway by inserting two 2mm drill bits in each hole blunt end first and then turned it using molegrips. I didn't really know the function of the valve at that point so I just put it back together.

I'm very keen to get this working but it's raining hard and my cylinder is in the shed do no more experiments for me tonight! Will be interested to know how you get on if you remove the valve, I haven't worked out how to bypass it yet, it may be a matter of just taking out the valve and then screwing down the lock ring but it might not reach deep enough, I'm not sure. There is a second plastic gasket with a hole in the middle, the sides of which cover the little metal hole visible on the outside of the outer 5/8" thread.
Good to hear you made progress. Do the valve / lockring have any function if a gas side keg part is screwed on and creating a permanent seal? I just assumed I'd gut any internal parts restricting C02 flow into the siphon. Thoughts?
 

Soda Warrior

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Good to hear you made progress. Do the valve / lockring have any function if a gas side keg part is screwed on and creating a permanent seal? I just assumed I'd gut any internal parts restricting C02 flow into the siphon. Thoughts?
I had planned to remove the valve but then I think the tiny hole on the side will potentially be open to the world except for the bottom gasket which does cover it. I don't know what the side hole is meant to do. The valve, as I put it isn't actually a valve at all, it's a hollow tube with a point in the end to pierce the chargers. I'm not sure if it has another function yet, it may just provide passage for gas to another valve below that I haven't seen yet. I think that it might just be a matter of working out the pressure needed to charge a siphon to and then keep pumping right until the end of the liquid, I need to do a bit of gas law calculation... I had intended to just use the ball lock valve with no internal valves. There is something below the bottom gasket that I am sure is an actual valve, but I didn't want to risk damage to the gasket and wanted to be sure if it really needed to come out at that point.
 
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Frank Trotta

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I had planned to remove the valve but then I think the tiny hole on the side will potentially be open to the world except for the bottom gasket which does cover it. I don't know what the side hole is meant to do. The valve, as I put it isn't actually a valve at all, it's a hollow tube with a point in the end to pierce the chargers. I'm not sure if it has another function yet, it may just provide passage for gas to another valve below that I haven't seen yet. I think that it might just be a matter of working out the pressure needed to charge a siphon to and then keep pumping right until the end of the liquid, I need to do a bit of gas law calculation... I had intended to just use the ball lock valve with no internal valves. There is something below the bottom gasket that I am sure is an actual valve, but I didn't want to risk damage to the gasket and wanted to be sure if it really needed to come out at that point.
I took it all apart last night. The side hole appears to be a relief hole, likely since the cartridges run fairly high at 850psi. As mentioned, in order of disassembly there are the following 4 parts: lockring, gasket, brass nozzle, plastic 1 way valve.

The innermost part is a plastic valve that lets gas thru into siphon, and does not let gas out. It is actuated by an outer rubberized sleeve that expands under pressure, allowing gas thru the side ports of the valve just under the sleeve. The 50psi pressure I run out of my tank may or may not be enough pressure to expand that rubber sleeve. If it is insufficient pressure, then I plan to run the siphon sans plastic valve, and just JB weld the relief hole. 50psi is likely not enough pressure to do any damage to any internal parts on the dispensing side of the siphon. I am away from the tank til Monday, and will run the test then.
 
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Soda Warrior

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I took it all apart last night. The side hole appears to be a relief hole, likely since the cartridges run fairly high at 850psi. As mentioned, in order of disassembly there are the following 4 parts: lockring, gasket, brass nozzle, plastic 1 way valve.

The innermost part is a plastic valve that lets gas thru into siphon, and does not let gas out. It is actuated by an outer rubberized sleeve that expands under pressure, allowing gas thru the side ports of the valve just under the sleeve. The 50psi pressure I run out of my tank may or may not be enough pressure to expand that rubber sleeve. If it is insufficient pressure, then I plan to run the siphon sans plastic valve, and just JB weld the relief hole. 50psi is likely not enough pressure to do any damage to any internal parts on the dispensing side of the siphon. I am away from the tank til Monday, and will run the test then.
I have done nothing further with the siphon, but just turned my regulator up to around 70psi (my regulator scale runs out at 60psi) and instead of running out of pressure, it dispensed all but around 40ml of the contents this time. I'd probably like to have higher carbonation and I think the siphon can take higher pressure, likely far, far more. It was good enough for my purposes. If you can turn up the pressure on your tank, I wouldn't alter the siphon, I don't think there's a need.

I am likely to buy a different pressure gauge to put on my regulator so I can measure higher pressures and experiment further. Can someone tell me the type of thread specification that these pressure gauges typically use, and any useful advice on fitting or pitfalls I should be aware of?
 

Frank Trotta

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I have done nothing further with the siphon, but just turned my regulator up to around 70psi (my regulator scale runs out at 60psi) and instead of running out of pressure, it dispensed all but around 40ml of the contents this time. I'd probably like to have higher carbonation and I think the siphon can take higher pressure, likely far, far more. It was good enough for my purposes. If you can turn up the pressure on your tank, I wouldn't alter the siphon, I don't think there's a need.

I am likely to buy a different pressure gauge to put on my regulator so I can measure higher pressures and experiment further. Can someone tell me the type of thread specification that these pressure gauges typically use, and any useful advice on fitting or pitfalls I should be aware of?
Yeah, my regulator has a 60psi working gauge, that dumps anything in excess of that from the relief valve... I would also like to swap gauges. Not sure about the threading, but it is standardized. Which if any parts did you leave out of the siphon?
 

Soda Warrior

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I didn't leave anything out of the siphon, just used it as it came in the post with the ball lock valve screwed on.
 

Frank Trotta

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Ok. I gutted all the internals, and jb welded the relief hole. The seltzer is MUCH better, but still does not quite have the same kick as the seltzer made with carbonator cap and 2L bottle. I chilled in the freezer prior to carbonation til the point of slight ice formation, and chilled in the fridge immediately afterwards for a an hour or two. I am running 50psi, and the tank is pumping audibly less CO2 into the bottle as with the carbonator cap/2L bottle. I feel like the only variables left are leaving more headspace in the siphon, and swapping gauges to run higher pressure. We have an old school seltzer man here in Brooklyn, who runs I believe 100psi into his old glass bottles. His seltzer has bubbles that shoot up out of the seltzer like bullets.
 

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I have a new gauge that runs up to 150 psi coming in the next day or two. Will let you know what happens.
 

Soda Warrior

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I changed the relief valve on my regulator to allow up to 145psi and charged the unmodified siphon to 100psi. It discharged all the contents and was well carbonated throughout. I may try higher pressures to compare, although there isn't any particular need. It's working well enough now.
 

Mellman

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I changed the relief valve on my regulator to allow up to 145psi and charged the unmodified siphon to 100psi. It discharged all the contents and was well carbonated throughout. I may try higher pressures to compare, although there isn't any particular need. It's working well enough now.
Do you have a parts list?
 

Soda Warrior

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Do you have a parts list?
You can almost certainly do it cheaper than I did by buying a CO2 regulator that has a higher pressure relief valve and higher reading pressure gauge to begin with. However, the parts I used were as follows:

1 x iSi Soda Siphon Seltz Bartender Cocktail Stainless Steel. LT.1.0
1 x Stainless steel ball lock post keg coupler adapter corny cornelius pair e.g. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/332704376259 (Maybe the seller could be asked to list only the gas side adapter, I couldn't find a separate one that was in the UK and was fed up of searching - needs to be 5/8" -14 thread)
1 x Dual Gauge CO2 Regulator e.g. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153297568355
1 x Pressure Gauge 50mm 1/4 BSPT Vertical 150PSI e.g. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142459831312
1 x 1/4" BSP Brass Air Compressor Pressure Switch Safety Relief Valve 145PSI 10BAR e.g. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B073ZYWBM4
 

casper911ca

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Disclaimer: Don't do this at home.

Late to the party. The CO2 cartridges are 8 grams. So the goal is to get 8 grams of CO2 into ISI soda siphon which has about 300ml of head space (1L of water, 0.3 L of head space). 300 ml of water is 300cc's, so what is the PSI of 8 grams of gaseous CO2 at 300cc's?

Back of the napkin calculation: Using the ideal gas law, we get about 14.5 atm, which is a little north of 200 psi. I'm not advocating charging at this pressure, in fact this is probably DANGEROUS unless you are professional as your are dealing with a pressure vessel that has been engineered to take the cartridges, which only have 8g of CO2, rather than 5 lbs. Everything used in-between the CO2 source and the siphon should be all rated well above these pressures before even considering this, and the person doing this should be trained in both safety and operations before dealing with pressure vessels. Do NOT go slapping on homemade jimmy rigs
 

casper911ca

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The max operating pressure listed by iSi is 232 psi, which means it's rating is pretty close to the 215 psi you get from the 8g cartridge, not much room for error. They would be dumb to not build in a safety factor, but still a little close for comfort if you trying to replicate the cartridge charge.

Fully charged, 5lb CO2 will be about 850 PSI (I think), which is more than triple the rating of the soda siphon. And it's 5lbs, not just 8 grams. So, for some reason an unregulated flow occurred it won't just stop at 8 grams, you'll have 280 times that amount.

Screenshot_20200429-173752.png
 
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