Slow carbonation in bottle after gelatin

[hopkincr]

Hello all. I used gelatin to help clear a version of Cream of Three Crops and the carbonation is quite slow for my beers. I used one of the priming sugar calcs online (and actually used a bit more than recommended). It's been 15 days and no carbonation in bottles yet. I have not had a single batch that wasn't carbonated after 7-8 days. They are green at that time, but fully carbonated (nearly 50 batches under my belt, but 1st time using gelatin). The beer is crystal clear, but flat. Is this normal? Thanks.


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[Scut_Monkey]

Most likely the gelatin did its job and pulled the yeast out of suspension and out of your beer. Therefore, there is not a sufficient amount of yeast cells to carbonate the beer in a reasonable time. I have used gelatin but I only keg so I can cheat when it comes time to carbonate. It sounds like you added the gelatin a few days prior to your bottling when perhaps it should have been added to the bottling bucket itself. Is this true?

The best solution that pops into my head at this point is to uncap all of them and sprinkle in some US-05 dry yeast or a clean yeast similar to this. Obviously then recap them.

 

[hopkincr]

Most likely the gelatin did its job and pulled the yeast out of suspension and out of your beer. Therefore, there is not a sufficient amount of yeast cells to carbonate the beer in a reasonable time. I have used gelatin but I only keg so I can cheat when it comes time to carbonate. It sounds like you added the gelatin a few days prior to your bottling when perhaps it should have been added to the bottling bucket itself. Is this true?

The best solution that pops into my head at this point is to uncap all of them and sprinkle in some US-05 dry yeast or a clean yeast similar to this. Obviously then recap them.

Yep, you got it. Prior to using the gelatin I searched multiple times about it and got multiple answers on when to add, but all said there would be enough yeast left to carbonate. I probably didn't even need it as the beer was already clear, but was just experimenting.

Thanks for the advice. I'll add some new yeast and see what happens. How much should I add?


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[Scut_Monkey]

I would say 1/4 to half a packet would be plenty for a 50 bottle batch. It just might be hard to estimate this when doing it.

 

[hopkincr]

I would say 1/4 to half a packet would be plenty for a 50 bottle batch. It just might be hard to estimate this when doing it.

So I went to add the yeast to my beers and when I opened the first bottle to add, there was a significant hiss and so I poured it into a glass and there was plenty of foam. Thought I had a one-off, so I popped another bottle and again, plenty of carbonation/head. I then put a few in the fridge to drink later (couple hours) and then opened those and not much carbonation. There does appear to be some in solution; but it soon fizzles out leaving a nearly flat beer. I know that CO2 dissolves better at colder temps and not having a huge head of foam on my beers is desirable, but there doesn't appear to be much CO2 at colder temps.

Interestingly, my next batch is doing the same thing (did not use gelatin with this batch). More carbonation at room temperature compared to cold. Both batches have the same caps as well - and none of my other batches have used these caps.

At this time I really don't want to add yeast and recap - afraid of getting some bombs. So, I'll probably just drink these myself and look to not use those caps anymore. The only other time I had trouble with carbonation is with an Irish Red this past winter, but they were bottle conditioning in my garage which was too cold - once I moved them into the house, they carbonated up quickly.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

So I went to add the yeast to my beers and when I opened the first bottle to add, there was a significant hiss and so I poured it into a glass and there was plenty of foam. Thought I had a one-off, so I popped another bottle and again, plenty of carbonation/head. I then put a few in the fridge to drink later (couple hours) and then opened those and not much carbonation. There does appear to be some in solution; but it soon fizzles out leaving a nearly flat beer. I know that CO2 dissolves better at colder temps and not having a huge head of foam on my beers is desirable, but there doesn't appear to be much CO2 at colder temps.

Interestingly, my next batch is doing the same thing (did not use gelatin with this batch). More carbonation at room temperature compared to cold. Both batches have the same caps as well - and none of my other batches have used these caps.

At this time I really don't want to add yeast and recap - afraid of getting some bombs. So, I'll probably just drink these myself and look to not use those caps anymore. The only other time I had trouble with carbonation is with an Irish Red this past winter, but they were bottle conditioning in my garage which was too cold - once I moved them into the house, they carbonated up quickly.

I wouldn't be afraid to add more yeast and then recap them. This should not lead to bottle bombs. This scenario is created when you either bottle prior to the yeast finishing fermentation or if a wild yeast starts to take hold and metabolize sugars that your brewing yeast wouldn't normally. So long as your yeast completed fermentation prior to bottling any additional brewing yeast that you add will metabolize the bottling sugar that you added and in essence stop at that.

Out of curiosity, how much priming sugar was added at the time of bottling and what yeast was used for both of these batches? Could it be the caps.... possibly. I'm still more inclined to think the following are more likely.
1. Your priming sugar wasn't mixed in well or not enough was added.
2. (most likely) There isn't enough yeast and the few that have had some carbonation just happened to get a high yeast count at the time of bottling.

Just my thoughts. Roll with it as you see fit... that's the beauty of brewing your own.

 

[hopkincr]

I wouldn't be afraid to add more yeast and then recap them. This should not lead to bottle bombs. This scenario is created when you either bottle prior to the yeast finishing fermentation or if a wild yeast starts to take hold and metabolize sugars that your brewing yeast wouldn't normally. So long as your yeast completed fermentation prior to bottling any additional brewing yeast that you add will metabolize the bottling sugar that you added and in essence stop at that.

Out of curiosity, how much priming sugar was added at the time of bottling and what yeast was used for both of these batches? Could it be the caps.... possibly. I'm still more inclined to think the following are more likely.
1. Your priming sugar wasn't mixed in well or not enough was added.
2. (most likely) There isn't enough yeast and the few that have had some carbonation just happened to get a high yeast count at the time of bottling.

Just my thoughts. Roll with it as you see fit... that's the beauty of brewing your own.

Thanks for the input and advice. I inverted the bottles today to make sure they are mixed and there were no leaks with the caps - doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a small leak.

I used the priming sugar calculator and for the cream ale added 0.54 cups (for a 3.5-4 gallon batch) and similar for the second brew.

I mix my priming sugar the same each time; after boiling/cooling I add the mixture to the bottom of the bucket and then rack over it. Don't stir any after that, but haven't needed to. My guess would be not enough yeast due to either the gelatin in the first batch, or the efficient transfer of the second batch from primary to secondary to bottling bucket.

I'm going to add more yeast and report back. Again, thanks for the advice.

 

[Yooper]

You have plenty of yeast- literally hundreds of billions, so that isn't the issue.

It sounds like too little priming sugar was used- I measure mine and use 5 oz for 5 gallons (corn sugar). I don't know how many 'cups' that is- probably at least 2/3 cup though. I think that's the issue here- not quite enough priming sugar. Keep them warm, someplace 75 degrees if possible, for another week, and then try chilling and testing one. Hopefully that will maximize the carb level.

I'm a priming calculator hater from way back, but every time I hear of undercarbed beer (or bottle bombs), it seems that the brewer used a calculator and not just a good rule of thumb of .75-1 ounce of corn sugar (by weight) per finished gallon of beer. That's a good carb level for most people- .75 oz for things like stouts and 1 oz for beers like lagers and pale ales.

 

[hopkincr]

You have plenty of yeast- literally hundreds of billions, so that isn't the issue.

It sounds like too little priming sugar was used- I measure mine and use 5 oz for 5 gallons (corn sugar). I don't know how many 'cups' that is- probably at least 2/3 cup though. I think that's the issue here- not quite enough priming sugar. Keep them warm, someplace 75 degrees if possible, for another week, and then try chilling and testing one. Hopefully that will maximize the carb level.

I'm a priming calculator hater from way back, but every time I hear of undercarbed beer (or bottle bombs), it seems that the brewer used a calculator and not just a good rule of thumb of .75-1 ounce of corn sugar (by weight) per finished gallon of beer. That's a good carb level for most people- .75 oz for things like stouts and 1 oz for beers like lagers and pale ales.

The level of sugar is roughly 1 oz per 1 gallon. 0.54 cups should be close to 4 oz of sugar and I racked just under 4 gallons. These have been carbing at 73-74 degrees for nearly 1 month now (bottled on 6/28). I'm more of the low yeast due to gelatin believer, but who knows. I've just added a bit more yeast to each bottle and we'll see what happens. This is going to be more anecdotal than science experiment, but we'll give it another couple weeks with the newly added yeast and see. Advice is very much appreciated.


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[Scut_Monkey]

Yeah see how it goes. You could always use a couple different bottle caps to see if those bottles have any more or less carbonation compared to the ones you are questioning. Let us know what happens.

 

[Yooper]

But weight in ounces doesn't convert to "cup" measurements. 4 ounces, by weight, is not equal to 1/2 cup. I will try to remember to weigh out some sugar tomorrow and put it in a measuring cup but I read somewhere that 1 pound of table sugar is about 2 1/2 cups.

 

[hopkincr]

But weight in ounces doesn't convert to "cup" measurements. 4 ounces, by weight, is not equal to 1/2 cup. I will try to remember to weigh out some sugar tomorrow and put it in a measuring cup but I read somewhere that 1 pound of table sugar is about 2 1/2 cups.

Not looking for an argument here. I have used the same amount of sugar every time I bottle a batch of beer and these last two times I've had an issue. Never before. So either my measurements have been lucky the previous 50-ish times, OR, something else happened these last two times (more than likely). Could be a number of things, but amount of sugar, based on all of my previous experience would say not. Maybe improper mixing, but again, unlikely. BTW, John Palmer says to use 3/4 cups of sugar; and that's for a typical batch - I brew in the 3.5-4 gallon size. So, .75 cups X .75 cups = .56 cups and I added .54 cups.


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[Yooper]

Not looking for an argument here. I have used the same amount of sugar every time I bottle a batch of beer and these last two times I've had an issue. Never before. So either my measurements have been lucky the previous 50-ish times, OR, something else happened these last two times (more than likely). Could be a number of things, but amount of sugar, based on all of my previous experience would say not. Maybe improper mixing, but again, unlikely. BTW, John Palmer says to use 3/4 cups of sugar; and that's for a typical batch - I brew in the 3.5-4 gallon size. So, .75 cups X .75 cups = .56 cups and I added .54 cups.


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Maybe your sugar has a tiny bit more water in it this time, or it's a different brand, and the granules are bigger. That's why it's important to go by weight- a little kitchen scale would be of a great help so that variances can't occur.

Anyway, if something happened these two times but every other time is fine, then there shouldn't be any issues in the future.

 

[hopkincr]

Maybe your sugar has a tiny bit more water in it this time, or it's a different brand, and the granules are bigger. That's why it's important to go by weight- a little kitchen scale would be of a great help so that variances can't occur.

Anyway, if something happened these two times but every other time is fine, then there shouldn't be any issues in the future.

I'll report back in a week or so and let you know how the carbonation is going. I did weigh a 1/2 cup of sugar on my scale this AM (same batch as the previous 6-ish brews) and it weighed 3.6 oz. Adding the slight bit more should be around 3.7 oz. right in line with the amount of beer I am bottling. But, who knows, maybe just my time to have an issue.


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[beersk]

Yeah, 15 days isn't enough time if you used gelatin, or even if you crash cooled for a week. It takes longer with less yeast. Just be patient, it'll carbonate. But the beauty of it is, you'll have clear beer with only a dusting of sediment on the bottom of the bottle.