Single Infusion Mash for Millet? Too good to be true?

[neumema]

If you've done a successful single infusion mash, can you let me know how much enzyme you used and the type?

What I don't necessarily understand is whether you all are relying on millet's natural enzymes to do any of the work. If I do a single infusion at 168-173 strike, to get to 163 for my mash, am I not denaturing the natural enzymes as soon as they hit the water? In that case, you're relying on the addition of enzymes to do the conversion, right?

 

[Osedax]

If you've done a successful single infusion mash, can you let me know how much enzyme you used and the type?

What I don't necessarily understand is whether you all are relying on millet's natural enzymes to do any of the work. If I do a single infusion at 168-173 strike, to get to 163 for my mash, am I not denaturing the natural enzymes as soon as they hit the water? In that case, you're relying on the addition of enzymes to do the conversion, right?

I don't know how much enzymes you should add because I use different ones. For me, I use 5-7ml on a 10 gallon batch.

Also, enzymes don't denature that fast. At least not as fast as everyone thinks. However, there is some debate. Calcium content, pH, and grist ratio all play a factor on enzyme longevity. There are even some reports that some of the enzymes survive up to the boil albeit briefly. The length of most sparges don't allow that though. Enzyme source also can play a role. Point is, the most important thing is a good mash process and you should be fine.

 

[PhillyBrewer]

FWIW, glutenfreehomebrewing.org just drastically improved their shipping rates.

 

[PhillyBrewer]

That said, it's still over $1 per pound of grain just for shipping for me, plus the $3.40-$5.40+ per pound of grain. Still not sure I can justify spending $50-60 on just ingredients for a single case of beer AND THEN having to brew it... :\

 

[mergs]

I just took a more detailed look at the posts in this thread since it looks like acquiring GF grains will not require a second mortgage now. @igliashon: When you say "use the amylase as directed", you're referring to the instructions from Brian Kolodzinski's article on GFHB, correct? This is where he says to add the amylase to your grain with your strike water (which is hot enough to mash in the high 150s/low 160s). Since the recommended temp on Brewcraft's amylase bottle says 122, I'm basically just wanting to clarify that you're advising to ignore this.

I know you're directing at Igs but I thought I'd reply as well. I used Brewcraft Termamyl Endo-Alpha Amylase. The label says "Use at 152F-pH 6.5" If you're using the same stuff, put your readers on because the text is tiny... I had to re-read 2x myself under bright light. Old eyes Its 152 not 122.

My target temps were 158F for 2 hours in a my mash tun, which is 10 gal, BIAB lined, igloo. I definitely am in the low 150s by the time 2 hours rolls around.

I also used Brian's article on GFHB site as my basis. I'm about to place an order for more grain in fact. Just finalizing my recipe over the next few days.

 

[mergs]

Same issues here, only not quite as bad since I'm in eastern WA and they ship from sou-central OR. They call this Zone 2 when I add items into the cart and calculate shipping. I just did some fooling around on their website:

As we know, base cost of 5lb of grouse Pale is $13.99. http://www.glutenfreehomebrewing.org/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3

shipping for (1) 5 lb bag to Zone 2 (me) is: $7.60
shipping for 92) 5 lb bags is: $8.88
3 is: $10.42*
4: $13.12*
5: $23.39
6: $25.05
7: $28.33
8: $29.24
9: $40.24

*Look at the price jump from 4lbs to 5lbs and from 8 to 9. It seems that the best deal w/ shipping is probably 3 or 4 5lb bags of grain at a time. At least for me. East coast shipping is probably a bit more.

I'm eager to put in another order, however I want to rethink the whole thing a little.

I might back off on the grain bill and start doing partial mash to stretch the malts. Problem with that is the specialty grain prices are truly ridiculous so savings may be insignificant.

Some of you cereal mash unmalted buckwheat... I could try that to retain the mouth feel I achieved with this AG batch. You may see a post pop up from me on that soon in order to review the process. I want to go back and review previous posts first before I do a duplicate.

Its really a kick in the gut to seemingly dial in a process, get emotionally charged about the success, only to have the costs rise this much. The previous prices I could live with but I am having great pause now.

Grouse Pale Millet is now up to $16.99 / 5lb

 

[Legume]

I am price sensitive, and for that reason have avoided using all GF malt in my brewing.

using non malted millet and buckwheat as a base (lots of enzymes needed), works great. I use Eckert specialty malts when I do this.

Using rice extract and mini mashing 5 lbs of specialty rice malts with Termamyl, also works well. I think for many styles as little as 2.5 or 3 lbs of specialty malt would yield a great result with this tecknique.

Both of these methods help me to reduce costs, and reduce my dependance on one supplier.

Anapolis Homebrew carries rice syrup, Termamyl, and AMG-300.

There are a couple of places that carry Eckert rice malts.

 

[mergs]

I am price sensitive, and for that reason have avoided using all GF malt in my brewing.

using non malted millet and buckwheat as a base (lots of enzymes needed), works great. I use Eckert specialty malts when I do this.

Using rice extract and mini mashing 5 lbs of specialty rice malts with Termamyl, also works well. I think for many styles as little as 2.5 or 3 lbs of specialty malt would yield a great result with this tecknique.

Both of these methods help me to reduce costs, and reduce my dependance on one supplier.

Anapolis Homebrew carries rice syrup, Termamyl, and AMG-300.

There are a couple of places that carry Eckert rice malts.

Worth a try! Are you using products like bobs red mill buckwheat and millet?

 

[Legume]

My local grocery store sells bulk millet and buckwheat, they order 20 lb bags for me at about $2 to $3 a pound...I think the buckwheat is a little more than the millet.
you can order 20 lb bags of millet on amazon (great river brand) for a similar price, I have used that as well.
Bobs redmill is fine too, but usually a bit more expensive.

 

[PhillyBrewer]

I am price sensitive, and for that reason have avoided using all GF malt in my brewing.

using non malted millet and buckwheat as a base (lots of enzymes needed), works great. I use Eckert specialty malts when I do this.

Using rice extract and mini mashing 5 lbs of specialty rice malts with Termamyl, also works well. I think for many styles as little as 2.5 or 3 lbs of specialty malt would yield a great result with this tecknique.

Both of these methods help me to reduce costs, and reduce my dependance on one supplier.

Anapolis Homebrew carries rice syrup, Termamyl, and AMG-300.

There are a couple of places that carry Eckert rice malts.

I'd love to see details of your process and recipe if you've had success this way and have time (another thread?).

 

[Legume]

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=511380

PhillyBrewer, have a look at my process in the thread linked above.
I plan to make a Saison next week using this process, I will start a thread to document the recipe and outcome.

 

[EVILEMRE]

I've been malting my own millet for a year now with great results. I can buy a 40lb bag of unhulled millet, it's literally birdseed, for $25. I built a malting machine, and can do about 15 lbs at a time, enough for a 10 gallon batch. I did it out of necessity, since where I live, western Canada, it is ridiculous to try to buy malted millet. I do my best to make crystal malt, and it's obviously not a perfect science, but the beer tastes good, so who cares.

 

[hipturn]

sent this to tim at colorado malting:

I'm I small business manager. We occasionally get criticism for our pricing. Folks don't realize how expensive it is just operationally to keep our business going. Let along our costs of goods sold.

So I understand pricing. Also, I am presuming that you guys have little interest in the homebrew market. It's so small and likely not worth your efforts.

Given the foregoing, you guys are pricing yourselves out of the homebrew market. See https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=511974&page=4

In 2013 you guys were quoting 1.99 / lbs for roasted pale. [a home brew supply company] is now quoting $3.60 per pound. And that's not including shipping.

Crystal that was $2.99 direct is now $5.00.

Folks are turning to unmalted millet + enzymes as an alternative to malted grains.

I am asking that you consider selling directly to the public again.

Folks in the Home Brew Talk forum are making big strides in producing quality single infusion GF homebrew.

We could really nail our processes if you'd reinstate direct to consumer sales.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Excellent! Now send the same message to Grouse.

 

[hipturn]

Kinda Sad: The folks at CMC didn't respond at all to me email. I've never run a business where I had the luxury of not responding to a customer / potential customer. I'm presuming they are doing pretty well. And as I said in the letter, we are a market that probably isn't worth their time.

 

[Osedax]

Kinda Sad: The folks at CMC didn't respond at all to me email. I've never run a business where I had the luxury of not responding to a customer / potential customer. I'm presuming they are doing pretty well. And as I said in the letter, we are a market that probably isn't worth their time.

Unfortunately, this is typical market trend. Large manufacturers always take precedence with new technology/product. The technology and demand need to improve before prices will drop. Don't worry. This is fairly typical. We will just have to wait for the product to prove itself on the marketplace.

So yes, sad face but, also happy face. This means gluten free malt is becoming viable. Or at least, looks like it is.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Back on post #21 and #24 of this thread I shared some details of an AG batch and I figured I would update since it is carbed and has conditioned for a few weeks. This one is toward the amber ale side and I really like it. This was my first batch with the roasted rice malt and I have to say I like it! Others came to this conclusion some time ago, but I think I am now in the camp that base malt will be millet and roasted malt will be mainly rice.

I have noticed with just a pound of rice in a 14 lb grain bill that the yeast cake was more fine and dense. It also took longer to clear but that is not a big thing because I need to be disciplined and let it condition for a week or so before going into it anyway. I am set up now to control fermentation temps and to cold crash, so that should help.

It has been quiet on homebrewtalk lately, at least on the GF side. Hope that means that everyone is busy with the onset of summer and not because the increase in GF malt price has scared everyone off!

 

[hipturn]

Thx Chris for all the help. The prices are steep but it's fun being a part of discovering new techniques. I just placed an order for grouse and CMC malts.

 

[glutarded-chris]

hipturn, I read your post on your plan for you AG batch with your grain order. Looking forward to your results with the "all in - low sparge infusion mash"! Hope you get your temp controlled fermentation rig back in action fast.

 

[mergs]

I've been personally put off a little bit by the prices but the good news is I just ordered and received grouse pale malt and some medium roast and I'm going to try a single infusion version of a grouse brown ale recipe. I'm not giving up homebrewing gf but I don't know if I'll keep 3 corny kegs of beer at a time. we'll see how this one goes and I'll post up the recipe and results if it turns out good. I've been doing IPAs for over a year so it's time to change it up a bit

 

[ricemaltster]

As a manufacturer of GF malt, I just want to put my two cents in and hope I don’t upset anyone. As craft maltsters, our scale is far smaller than any of the (few) large barley malting companies. When I started business I chose to not sell directly to homebrewers for the simple reason that I could not afford the time to package and ship small orders. I also could not afford to hire a person to do this and make a profit. It only made sense to sell wholesale to homebrew shops and craft breweries. The homebrew shops are already set up to fill small orders. I do believe that as we are able to scale up our business to meet the growing demand for GF grain, that the cost to produce the malt will drop some. This will hopefully be seen by the end consumer as a reduced cost of the raw materials we love. Cheers, Jim

 

[mergs]

Jim,

Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain the business side of malting GF grains. I may be speaking for many here in that to me it was never a personal matter about the malt costs but one simply of that the cost was high and growing higher as we ramped up our use and got excited by some successful batches with them. In other words about the time I got up enough nerve to go GFAG the prices pretty much went out of sight for the grains. That's what we're dealing with as consumers now and its made some of us a little sad.

But in the end we want you all to succeed! We know this isn't a charity on your part, its a business and you have to make a living at it or find another line of work. So, I personally wish you and the other malting companies much success because I don't want / don't have the time to malt my own grains, I just want to brew beer at a reasonable cost. Where is that level? Somewhere between where it is now and where barley is at now would be fine for me personally.

Best of luck to the business and once again all the best and thanks for chiming in. I certain found nothing upsetting with what you said and I'm glad you took the time to reply.

 

[Legume]

Absoloutly no offense taken Jim.
You are making a fantastic product, and I want you to be sucesfull so that you continue making it.
All of my recipies use your specialty malts...I will never go back (to millet or my crude atempts at home malting).
The rants about price are not personal...keep making great product, the market will reward you, and with luck...retail prices will come down as you grow and retail competition increases.

 

[max42]

I can confirm that single-infusion works. For best results, use an amylase addition as directed. At Ghostfish we do a 2-hour mash from between 152°F to 158°F, and I honestly can't say that I have noted any major differences. I crush the grain with a 2-roller mill and seem to be getting good results with a .63 mm gap setting. The v-wire on our false bottom is gapped at about .7 mm, but unfortunately (because the screen has to be modular to remove through the manway) the gaps between screen modules exceed 3 mm in places and allow a bit of grain through.

The single most important thing I have learned when mashing with millet is DO NOT FLY SPARGE. The nature of the grain bed is to cause severe channeling of the runoff, even with copious amounts of rice hulls. You just CANNOT get a good rinse of all parts of the grain bed. If you taste the spent grain, it should be completely bland--if you find any sweetness, you left sugars behind and need to tweak your sparge method.

On our first few "big" batches we sparged the way the system was designed--i.e. a slow run-off with the sparge ring keeping 1-2" of water above the grain bed the whole time, and we achieved terrible efficiency compared to what I was getting on my 3-gallon setup where I batch sparged everything. I chalked it up to the bad crush we were getting with the grooved rollers on our mill, but when we installed our 0.5-bbl pilot system, I used the same Monster Mill I've been using for 3-gallon batches for years and got similarly bad efficiency. I decided to try fly sparging on my old 3-gallon setup just to isolate variables, and indeed! Terrible efficiency. So I tried a very tedious underlet-infusion batch sparge technique on the pilot system with LOTS of mixing at each step of the sparge, and wouldn't you know it, I was back at the same kind of efficiency I was accustomed to before!

For the record, for pale millet malt I assume a max system efficiency of 75% and a max theoretical yield of 30 PPG, and I hit my numbers within one or two points almost every single time. It also helps to do smaller batches when batch sparging--3 or 4 instead of 1 or 2. I do use rice hulls because the grain bed is pretty gummy by the 3rd sparge and after one 14-hour day on the pilot system (pre-rice hulls) I vowed never to stick the sparge like that again! I use around 1/7th of a pound of rice hulls for every pound of grain and finally have normal-length brew days again.

As to how it's going to work on the big system, I don't know yet because I'm still waiting on a set of knurled rollers. Grooved rollers at 10 grooves per inch do NOT do the job. But I intend to use a similar method as I do on the pilot--mash, vorlauf, drain, underlet, mix, vorlauf, drain, underlet, mix, vorlauf, drain. It'll be a long brew day, but 70% efficiency vs 15% efficiency makes it very worth it. I'm sure I'll eventually streamline it.

What gap setting would you use for Buckwheat?

 

[glutarded-chris]

My experience is with buckwheat you need to go LARGE. I do mine around 0.045" (1.1mm). At that gap every kernel gets a good crush and you can run through at a nice even slow speed. Run through twice if you think you need to. On lower gaps the buckwheat binds hard on a roller mill. I have a high torque drill I use on my mill and it nearly ripped my arm off when it suddenly bound up on buckwheat at a small gap.

 

[max42]

My experience is with buckwheat you need to go LARGE. I do mine around 0.045" (1.1mm). At that gap every kernel gets a good crush and you can run through at a nice even slow speed. Run through twice if you think you need to. On lower gaps the buckwheat binds hard on a roller mill. I have a high torque drill I use on my mill and it nearly ripped my arm off when it suddenly bound up on buckwheat at a small gap.

Thanks. Looks like I will need to adjust the gap differently for buckwheat and millet.

Getting prepared for my 1st GF all grain batch, bought the IPA from GF Homebrew. My grain mill cabinet is built, I have a 3 roller MM which is motorized, 70qt Coleman xtreme cooler to mash in. Plan to do a single infusion mash per the process in this thread using enzymes.

 

[Osedax]

Thanks. Looks like I will need to adjust the gap differently for buckwheat and millet.

Getting prepared for my 1st GF all grain batch, bought the IPA from GF Homebrew. My grain mill cabinet is built, I have a 3 roller MM which is motorized, 70qt Coleman xtreme cooler to mash in. Plan to do a single infusion mash per the process in this thread using enzymes.

I did .25" over the weekend with buckwheat on my mill. Seemed to go through fine. Although, I don't concern myself with a real good buckwheat grind.

Good luck and happy brewing!

 

[max42]

Did you mean .025"?

 

[Osedax]

Did you mean .025"?

Sorry, yes. Too many homebrews. :beer:

 

[glutarded-chris]

Disregard my previous advice!

My mill jams on pure Buckwheat with small gaps but today, because of the recent discussion, I tried mixing the buckwheat with the millet and it went right through with a gap of 0.020". I think I always separated the buckwheat from the millet thinking they would need different gaps and because I wanted to be able to assess the effectiveness of the grind for each grain. I won't be doing that any more! I guess with a small percentage of buckwheat, the individual buckwheat seeds encountering the roller don't have enough energy to stop it. Seems obvious now; don't know why I didn't try that earlier!!!!

 

[Legume]

I didnt think that a single infusion mash was a reliable path forward for gluten free beers. But for my last two partial mash batches, I have done mini-single infusion mashes (with added enzymes), and they have had good results. I am now convinced that this is a reasonable way to make high quality gluten free beer. Please disregard my earlier post on this thread where I cast doubt on this method bieng apropreate for GF grains.

 

[burns766]

hey guys i've been muddling through attemping to grind the malt into flour and using a stepped mash, decoction as yall are talking about. I had read that the grinding of the grains, millet here, leads to a much higher efficiency. I'm assuming that everyone on this thread couldn't find a decent way to lauter it and that is why you are cracking it or not grinding it as fine? I'm about there as well, I just wanted to check to see if anyone else has found anything that can work?

 

[burns766]

I'm not sure if this is an obvious question or not, but do you use hulled or unhulled buckwheat?

 

[Legume]

I grind fine and don't have a big problem Lautering, in a zap pap style lauter tun lined with a BIAB bag.

I always use Eckert rice malt as my specialty malt (usually 3 or 4 lbs), besides being awesome malt, it has the added benefit of the rice hulls that help make a nice grain bed (even if I grind my millet very fine).

The combination of the rice malt, and the zap pap tun lined with a bag are key to easy lautering.

The buckwheat I use is hulled, like you would find in the bulk bin at a health food store. Using lots of buckwheat definitely makes lautering harder (its like adding glue to your mash), but I love the texture and head that I get when I use ~ 3 lbs of buckwheat in a batch.

 

[glutarded-chris]

I brewed a batch today with what I thought was a standard process for me and got crazy good yield. I usually get around 21 to 23 ppg and this batch I calculate 30ppg. I used more flaked corn then I usually use and that should help from what I have read, but I have never been above 25 ppg. I checked gravity readings twice and even checked the refractometer with water to make sure it was calibrated. Something seems wrong. I could have expected a point or two above my previous experience maybe but that is too much.

 

[Legume]

In my process, mash time and temperature lead to high yield.
When I have increased mash time, or raised the mash temperature (with enzymes that are stable at the increased mash temp), I get higher than expected yields.
I have goten some tannin extraction in a few batches, and have backed off on both time and temperature to adress this.
There is a sweet spot there somewhere between yield and quality, I am geting closer to it but cant claim to have found it yet.

 

[glutarded-chris]

The time is about the same as normal. I spend about 40 minutes around 125F and then 2 hours at 165F dropping to 155-60F by the end of the rest. I read through my previous AG batches and I did have a higher percentage of pale malt in this last batch. Maybe that and using flaked corn are the biggest contributors.

Maybe this is reaching, but I did not refrigerate the diatase enzyme this time before using it. I would not think that enzymes would have a problem with anything but very high temps, so I cannot imagine this has anything to do with it.

 

[jmitchell3]

May not be the right place, but thought I'd give it a go:

Hey there, getting closer to attempting my first GFAG brewday. I was thinking of just doing a simple pale ale to begin...was thinking the following:

10lb pale millet
2lb buckwheat malt
1lb or so specialty GF malt (biscuit or crystal?)
Possibly some pale or 45l candi syrup for color if needed?

bitter at 60 with magnum
finish at 15 and 0 with Cascade and Centennial

Maybe a specialty rice a malt and/or a pale candi syrup? I've seen people say they prefer to the specialty and roasted rice malts for flavor better than some of the specialty/roasted millet malts...can anyone comment on their experience? I see that gf homebrewing has biscuit, crystal, and brown rice malts available.

Thank you!

 

[EVILEMRE]

That's quite similar to what I've been consistently brewing.
I use a little more millet for my base malt, usually 13lbs. But I malt my own grains and I'm always concerned about the quality, so I over compensate.
I would recommend using crystal malt (I've had great results with it) and I've been roasting malted buckwheat to a dark, chocolate colour and putting in about 0.5 lbs of that.
And the dark Candi syrup, 250ml.
I prefer it maltier than hoppy so I go easy on the bittering hops.
I think your recipe will work though.

 

[PhillyBrewer]

For all the GF millet brewers... Have any of you ever tried beers made by Glutenberg? I'm just curious how your home brew efforts compare to a solid commercial example.