Single Decoction

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keke

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Hey everyone!
I'm planning on brewing an Oktoberfest in the next few days and wanted to try out a Decoction mash. I've read about it a few times online, and I kept seeing people say that "most grains are modified" and that there is no need for protein rests for modified grains. So I was thinking maybe I can do a single Decoction? The thing is, I don't want the low temp protein rest, only the saccharification rest, and then to do the Decoction. I mean, let the normal 60 min infusion mash do it's thing, and then do a single decoction to bring the mash temp up to mash out temps.
Could I do that? Or is it not very possible because of the small difference in temperatures between sac rest temp and mash out temp?

Any help and advise would be highly appreciated! Thank you!
 

giraffe

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You could do a split saccrification rest. Say 146(20min)-decoction-156(60). That way if any starches are broken out in the decoction they can still convert. Then you can infuse to mash out.

The last decoction in a triple decoction is often a thin decoction without grain to get from the sac rest to mash out, without being thick or having the grain in it, you dont get the color formulation, efficiency gains, or possible flavor gains that youd get from the thicker decoction. So in other words, unless your entire system is set up to only do decoctions, its the decoction with the least point.
 

tsl346

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Yes, you can do a single decoction to get to your mashout temp. This will still give you a fair amount of the carmelization that comes with decoction and effect your flavor profile.

It is only 15-20 degree difference between sac rest and mashout temps but you will be surprised how much you need to pull out because the temp is so high. For an altbier I had to decoct 20lbs to get from 151 to 170.
 

specharka

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I employ a Hochkurz mash on nearly all of my continental beers. Typically it's rests at 145, 156, and 168, but you could easily modify that to suit your desires. The protein rest is definitely not necessary for most grainbills, but I've found that almost all of my beers benefit from a mash out. You'll still get some melanoidin production with a thinner mash out decoction but you won't see the efficiency gains from doing a rests in the beta and alpha amylase range (140-158).
 
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keke

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So do I just do a sac rest for 60 min and then decoct to raise temp to mash out? Now when I'm thinking about it, if I do that then I'm not exposing the decotion part of the wort to the enzymes in the main mash, because once I add the decoction back in to the main mash its already at mash out temp which stops the enzymes from working. So...what do you guys think?
BTW thank you all for the quick reply's!
 

Spartan1979

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You could do a split saccrification rest. Say 146(20min)-decoction-156(60). That way if any starches are broken out in the decoction they can still convert. Then you can infuse to mash out.

The last decoction in a triple decoction is often a thin decoction without grain to get from the sac rest to mash out, without being thick or having the grain in it, you dont get the color formulation, efficiency gains, or possible flavor gains that youd get from the thicker decoction. So in other words, unless your entire system is set up to only do decoctions, its the decoction with the least point.
This is pretty much what I do when I do a decoction. Mash in at 143 or so, pull a decoction and raise to 156. No mash out.
 

rabeb25

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Dough in at 143 rest 30ish, pull 60% of your mash boil 10 minutes, then add back for a 162 Alpha rest and rest that for at least 60 minutes. Standard hochkurz.
 
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keke

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What should be 143 ? Strike water or mash temp after mashing in?
 
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keke

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The fact that the mash stays longer in the 162ish temp, wont that make the beer very full bodied with a lot of unfermentables? I want it to come out pretty dry... What do I do on that case?
 

giraffe

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Beta amaylze only works for 30-40 minutes once in solution. Its ideal temp is in the low 140s. By doing a split rest in the 140s and them high 150s you can control fermentability by how long you leave it at that rest. Since Alpha amalyze is not very active at 140s, beta amalyze will practically be the only thing working at that rest; the beer should come out fairly dry, and drier than if you single infusion mashed at 148. (Not bone dry, there will be more starch that is broken out in the decoction and it will be converted at 162.)
 

VladOfTrub

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Malt is modified, it has to do with germination cycle. Kolbach or the SNR number found on a malt data sheet will indicate level of modification. The term protein rest is a misnomer and it beat to death within the home brew world. During the low temperature rest, proteinase reduces beta glucan to glucose. Mash viscosity is reduced during the rest. The rest is only applied to a small portion of the mash, usually in the first decoction. Glucose is the native sugar in starch. When Alpha liquefies the simple starch chain, amylose, at a 1-4 link, two chains are created. The name changes and one chain is called the reducing end and the other chain is the non-reducing end. The non-reducing end is glucose and it is rocket fuel for yeast. Non-fermentable sugar is left after Alpha liquefies the 1-4 links of the reducing end and once in a while A-Limit dextrin pops out. Conversion takes place during the maltose rest. Beta converts glucose which is released during saccharification into maltose and maltriose during the Beta rest. Starch does not convert to sugar, one type of sugar converts into another type of sugar. Starch is only the container that holds the sugar, the fuel. Saccharification and conversion are two different things. Unless the malt is slack, saccharification takes place in 20 minutes. It is a Mother Nature, science thing. Amylo-pectin which is complex starch bursts when the decoction is boiled. Amylo-pectin is responsible for body. A-Limit and B-Limit dextrin are part of gelatinization and dextrinization. A-Limit and B-Limit dextrin forms body.The temperature at which dextrinization occurs is 149F. Kudos on attempting the decoction method. Be sure to reduce mash pH before boiling the decoctions. Dough in at 95F and pull the first decoction and raise the decoction temperature to 122 to 125F and rest the decoction for 20 minutes. Then increase the decoction temperature to 155F and rest the decoction for 20 minutes, an iodine test can be used after the rest. The iodine should be a reddish/mahogany shade. If it isn't allow the decoction to rest for 10 more minutes. If iodine is blue/black after 30 minutes, not to worry. After saccharification, boil the decoction for at least 20 minutes. Better to boil it past hot break, protein gum will be reduced. The main mash will be resting at low temperature and enzymatic activity will be slow. Any glucose formed will be converted during the maltose rest. Use the first decoction to raise the main mash to 130F, saccharification will continue, but slowly. As soon as the main mash hits 130F, remove the second decoction and raise the decoction to 145F and rest it for 10 minutes and then bring it to a boil and boil it for at least 20 minutes. Use the second decoction to raise the main mash temperature to 149F and no higher than 153F. When the main mash stabilizes at 149F remove the third decoction and take it to boiling and boil it for 10 minutes. The decoction is used to raise the main mash to 155F, Alpha II temperature. Rest the main mash for 10 minutes and use boiling water to raise the mash to 162F, Alpha I temperature and rest it for 10 Minutes. Use more boiling water to raise the mash to mash out temperature if mash out is desired. It probably won't be necessary. Do not batch sparge. The wort produced will be pristine due to the method and batch sparging will only introduce protein mud into the wort. There will be a layer of tan mud on top of the grain bed, do not screw with it. If the mud is gray, sparging will take longer. Boil the wort past hot break before adding hops. Skim off any hot break that forms. There shouldn't be a lot of hot break. You will need a secondary fermentation vessel. After two weeks in the primary and two weeks in the secondary, keg the beer. It will take at least four months for the beer to age. There will be no need to prime the beer when it is kegged, maltriose will do that for you.
 
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