Side-by-side Loki Kveik and WY1007 for a Kolsch

[luckybeagle]

I'm contemplating another Kveik experiment--this time with a Kolsch. I've been commissioned by my office to brew a Kolsch for the lounge kegerator, but I can't resist the urge to experiment with at least half of the batch. Consider this a low tech, way less structured version of an exBEERiment.

I'll be brewing 10 gallons or so. One carboy will receive Wyeast 1007, pitched at ~1.25 and will ferment at 68F for 10 days, followed by a crash, fining and kegging.

The other carboy will receive 4 or so ounces of Kveik slurry and will go into the back bedroom of my house, which is a stable 70F. I'll package that one once it finishes. It should ferment more quickly than the 1007 batch.

I am leaning toward EdWort's recipe instead of Josh Weikert's (which I've brewed before and loved). The reason for choosing Ed's over Josh's is twofold:

1. EdWort uses wheat malt in his, and I would love the head retention + glass lacing, even though Kolshes by BJCP definition do not need to have lasting foam. It'll look impressive in a pint glass even if it is stylistically a little off.

2. Josh Weikert promotes the use of acidulated malt, which is GREAT with the 1007 yeast, but concerns me with the Loki Kveik as that yeast naturally buffers the finished beer pH down more than a standard ale yeast. All of my Kveik beers have had a noticeably tart sensation/left a slightly tart taste on my lips. I really want to avoid that. Hopefully the 1007 portion of the beer won't suffer from lacking that addition.

EdWort's recipe:

Batch size: 10.5 gallons
Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: Wyeast 1007 German Ale
Original Gravity:1.052
Final Gravity: 1.009
Boiling Time 60 Minutes
IBU: 36

Grain bill (approx, need to adjust for my efficiency):
14 pounds of Two-row Pils malt
5 pounds Wheat malt

Hops (weights approximate as I haven't plugged these into BrewTarget yet):
2 oz Perle 7.8% AA for 60 minutes
1 oz. Tettnanger 4.4% AA for 15 min.
1 oz. Tettnanger 4.4% AA for 5 mi.

If anyone has any suggestions or tweaks, I'd love to hear them. I'm 2 for 3 with my Kveik beers turning out good, but I've fermented them all at HIGH temperatures (mid 90s) and produced a ton of esters. This resulted in an amazing golden strong that I brewed, racked, carbonated, drank and kicked within a 3 week span, a Quad that tastes really weird currently, and an Irish Red that shows potential (it'll be racked today--7 days after brewing).

I'll document as I go along!

 

[michaeltrego]

I just brewed a similar experiment last weekend. Split 10 gallon batch of standard Kolsch with WY2565 fermented at 60F and Omega Kveik Hornindal fermented at 70F. The intent is for the Kveik batch to approach an American Pale Ale by dryhopping with Amarillo and Cascade to be ready for 4th of July. The standard Kolsch batch I will ferment longer and lager for at least 3 weeks.

15.0 lb Weyermann BoPils
1.75 lb Weyermann BoWheat
1.25 lb Best Munich Light

13 IBU Hallertau Mittelfruh FWH
16 IBU Hallertau Mittelfruh 60 min
4 IBU Saaz 5 min

OG 1.048
IBU 33

Good luck!

 

[Chet Ripley]

where do you work that you have a lounge kegerator and can i get an application?

 

[luckybeagle]

where do you work that you have a lounge kegerator and can i get an application?

Haha! My wife and I sell real estate. The company owners are into beer, and we do client appreciation events in our lounge with homebrew. Last year we hosted a flight night and served 4 of our beers to our awesome beer-drinking clients - a Belgian Blonde, Tripel, Scotch Ale and West Coast IPA. Always fun when you can combine business with tax-deductible pleasure!

I decided to tweak the recipe a bit. Here's what I'll be brewing instead for the Kolsch--it's actually pretty similar to michaeltrego's recipe above, minus the Munich malt:

Hallertau hops with about 25% of the IBUs coming at a 30 minute addition (the rest at 60). I need to tweak this for a 90 minute boil, but this should be good for now. I have a 1600mL stir plate of WY1007 German Ale/Kolsch yeast going right now.

 

[VikeMan]

Always fun when you can combine business with tax-deductible pleasure!

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but just in case... be careful. Don't accept a dime (or an employee expense tax deduction) for any beer you brew as a home brewer. Not even to just defray ingredient costs (which is the invalid loophole people often seem to want to try).

 

[riceral]

Haha! My wife and I sell real estate. The company owners are into beer, and we do client appreciation events in our lounge with homebrew. Last year we hosted a flight night and served 4 of our beers to our awesome beer-drinking clients - a Belgian Blonde, Tripel, Scotch Ale and West Coast IPA. Always fun when you can combine business with tax-deductible pleasure!

I decided to tweak the recipe a bit. Here's what I'll be brewing instead for the Kolsch--it's actually pretty similar to michaeltrego's recipe above, minus the Munich malt:
View attachment 685482

Hallertau hops with about 25% of the IBUs coming at a 30 minute addition (the rest at 60). I need to tweak this for a 90 minute boil, but this should be good for now. I have a 1600mL stir plate of WY1007 German Ale/Kolsch yeast going right now.

Slightly OT---

What software are you using? How easy is it to use?

I like the looks of that and looking for something other than BeerSmith.

 

[luckybeagle]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but just in case... be careful. Don't accept a dime (or an employee expense tax deduction) for any beer you brew as a home brewer. Not even to just defray ingredient costs (which is the invalid loophole people often seem to want to try).

Thanks for looking out Vikeman. None of it is for sale or receives any compensation, but we are able to deduct expenses used toward making client gifts, supplies used in hosting client events, packaging and advertising. The beer is always free and we're 1099'd independent contractors. For the stuff I brew for the office (and for the other brokers to enjoy), I just have the company pick up the tab for the ingredients.

Slightly OT---

What software are you using? How easy is it to use?

I like the looks of that and looking for something other than BeerSmith.

It's called BrewTarget and it's free! I like it quite a bit. You have to spend some time setting your own equipment parameters, but once you do it's great. I've used the free account for Brewersfriend for a couple years, which is prettier, but limits you to 5 recipes before you need a membership. I also don't get wifi in my garage so having offline desktop brewing software with all the calculators I need built in is perfect.

 

[VikeMan]

For the stuff I brew for the office (and for the other brokers to enjoy), I just have the company pick up the tab for the ingredients.

That's what I mean. You can't (legally) do that.

As someone who has poured hundreds of gallons of homebrew at beer festivals, I wish it were otherwise!

 

[TurnipGreen]

I have a horendale kolsch on draft right now. I did a split with WLP029. The kveik turned out pretty good, but it definitely taste more like a blonde than a kolsch.
My house kolsch uses about 10% wheat and about 10% light Munich. I’ve made it with out the wheat and I think it does add to a nice head and fullness and the Munich just helps round out the maltyness.

 

[bleme]

That's what I mean. You can't (legally) do that.

As someone who has poured hundreds of gallons of homebrew at beer festivals, I wish it were otherwise!

The way I read it, this is perfectly legal in Oregon.

What is the meaning of "financial consideration?"

This term means value that is given or received directly or indirectly through sales, barter, trade, fees, charges, contributions or donations. However, financial consideration does not include: an event charge or club dues that are independent of the amount of alcoholic beverages provided; a prize at an organized contest, judging or competition; or homemade alcoholic beverages or ingredients provided by others.

 

[VikeMan]

The way I read it, this is perfectly legal in Oregon.

Can you please provide a link to the whole thing? TIA.

 

[bleme]

Can you please provide a link to the whole thing? TIA.

https://www.oregon.gov/olcc/pages/h...censed location (such,persons age 21 or older.

 

[VikeMan]

https://www.oregon.gov/olcc/pages/h...censed location (such,persons age 21 or older.

Thanks. The way that reads, in the full context, implies that ingredients (but not money for ingredients) could be provided. I sent a question to the commission (without mentioning this thread specifically) to verify (or not) that interpretation.

 

[balrog]

My fav kolsch was (5gal)
5# Dingemann's Pils
2.5# Wheat malt
Mash 149/60min, boil 90
1oz Hallertau Trad 6.1% at 60m
1/2oz Liberty 4.0% at 15m
1oz Liberty 4.0% at 5m
GigaYeast 021, 64F
The yeast added such a wonderful light white wine, lest than WY2565.

 

[luckybeagle]

I should clarify that no money passes through me with the office beers. I pick up ingredients from the LHBS that have already been paid for, turn it into beer, and put it on tap. My time and packaging is all donated for the beer I keg for my office. This portion of my hobby does not result in a write-off for me; I do it for fun and because I like my colleagues, and they like my beer.

For giving beers to clients, a majority of what I do is this: I pop by with bottles of homebrew to my clients' houses with a love note and our marketing materials attached. They drink my beer and enjoy the gesture (and hopefully the taste!). Occasionally they tag me on social media which helps us spread our name and reputation. Since I'm making a gift, I'm allowed to write off the portion of ingredients allocated to producing these gifts to reduce my taxable income--up to $25 per individual per year is the IRS limit. Since beer ingredients are cheap, it's nominal--much less than this per person. I would consider the very minor tax deduction I take from this aspect of brewing beer as more of a novelty than a major income tax reduction strategy.

Hosting our client flight nights allows for 100% deduction of expenses. On those occasions, our expenses actually amount to something: bottles of wine for the non beer drinkers, activities for kids, NA beverages, hors d'oeuvres, plastic cups and so forth.

But no money passes through me with either of those, and I've never sold beer. I was contemplating a charity fundraiser with bombers of something special (and a suggested donation) with 100% passthrough to a local foster care organization, but I haven't looked into the legality of that--or if it would be seen as selling beer... Anyway, with COVID, that idea is very much on the back burner.

Brew on!

 

[hottpeper13]

I wanna split a batch with Vikeman, cause I would get free beer. Lets split a 20 gal batch!

 

[VikeMan]

I should clarify that no money passes through me with the office beers. I pick up ingredients from the LHBS that have already been paid for, turn it into beer, and put it on tap.

This may well be ok from what the OR FAQ says. I have not heard heard back from the commission on the question I sent, but will post when I do.

Since I'm making a gift, I'm allowed to write off the portion of ingredients allocated to producing these gifts to reduce my taxable income--up to $25 per individual per year is the IRS limit. Since beer ingredients are cheap, it's nominal--much less than this per person. I would consider the very minor tax deduction I take from this aspect of brewing beer as more of a novelty than a major income tax reduction strategy.

If I were you, I would run this particular scenario by a lawyer. Not a tax lawyer, but one who knows the alcohol statutes.

I was contemplating a charity fundraiser with bombers of something special (and a suggested donation) with 100% passthrough to a local foster care organization, but I haven't looked into the legality of that--or if it would be seen as selling beer... Anyway, with COVID, that idea is very much on the back burner.

In PA at least, this would be legal, if the charity runs the event and collects the money directly. The (home) brewer can't be a part of any transactions, even just to pass money along to the charity. Nor can the (home) brewer receive reimbursement for any expenses.

 

[VikeMan]

I should clarify that no money passes through me with the office beers. I pick up ingredients from the LHBS that have already been paid for, turn it into beer, and put it on tap.

This may well be ok from what the OR FAQ says. I have not heard heard back from the commission on the question I sent, but will post when I do.

Just got a response... "A person making homemade malt beverage, wine, or cider can accept the ingredients needed to make the homemade alcohol (or have someone else pay for those ingredients) and those ingredients will not be considered financial consideration. Once the alcohol has been produced, the person making the homemade alcohol can then give that alcohol away for free."

So in Oregon (at least), it's ok for someone else to give you the ingredients or to buy them for you, and you can then give the beer to them (or anyone) for free.

 

[Craiginthecorn]

I'll document as I go along!

I see this kind of thing far, far too often. Someone writes and says they're doing an experiment or they're asking for advice, promises to share the results, then...crickets.

One reply to the OP mentioned that they were in the process of a similar split batch experiment. Crickets.

Only TurnipGreen partially commented on the result of their split batch experiment, describing the results of the kveik batch, but not the WLP029. Too bad. The results would have been interesting.

 

[luckybeagle]

I see this kind of thing far, far too often. Someone writes and says they're doing an experiment or they're asking for advice, promises to share the results, then...crickets.

One reply to the OP mentioned that they were in the process of a similar split batch experiment. Crickets.

Only TurnipGreen partially commented on the result of their split batch experiment, describing the results of the kveik batch, but not the WLP029. Too bad. The results would have been interesting.

I can tell you the results, and am annoyed too when this happens, but things bigger than beer did crop up for me. In this case, it was the unexpectedly early birth of my second daughter--born at 31 weeks on July 11, 2020. She came at 3 pounds, spent 40 days in NICU and my life was flipped upside down. Glad I had some bottles tucked away and a few kegs still full, because my life was divided between caring for our 4 year old and living part-time at the hospital. No brewing, experimenting, or even working during that time. Still, I appreciate the continuity of a start-to-finish experiment and have a rare 15 minutes to type out the results, so here it is:

Kveik yeast is not as promising as I thought it would be. It seems to do a really crappy job with low OG beers. One of the top 3 beers I ever brewed was a smash beer with Pilsner malt and Loki Kveik at ~1.090 OG and only a bittering hop. It went grain-to-glass in 6 days and tasted incredible. Citrusy, fresh, juicy and complex. The same cannot be said for this side-by-side kolsch experiment. The traditional Kolsch was delicious. It was the last beer I drank before I went to the hospital, and the first beer I drank once I came home. I shared several pints of it with my neighbor, whom relieved me at 3am when I got the call that my wife was being prepped for an emergency c-section. She went in bleeding the night before and I wasn't able to accompany her between a) our 4 year old and b) COVID. I made it to her birth with maybe 3 minutes to spare.

The neighbor and I both had more than our fair share of the good Kolsch once we got back, and it was a beautiful thing--followed by a completely unproductive day, LOL. That kolsch was fantastic for washing away the stress of the week before, but the kveik version of it sat on tap until I dumped it. A few months later, when I found time to brew another batch, I had a similar outcome with a 6% abv "Belgian" Blonde ale. Uninspiring, bland, and stylistically in no-man's-land. It pissed me off.

I'm not giving up entirely on Kveik, but the conditions that produced the one incredible beer it gave me was this:
95F fermentation temp
1.090 OG
1 malt, 1 hop.

The beers it sucked with were: "Irish" Red, "Belgian Quad," and Kolsch. After those 4 I dumped my mason jar of slurry and put a pin in Kveik experimentations. I will try again in the heat of 2021 summer, maybe with another one of the Kveik strains.

Pics or it didn't happen, right? First pic is of the Kolsch with Kveik and the Irish Red with Kveik--both disappointments. Second is of the little 3 pounder. She's healthy and tracking well now.

 

[Craiginthecorn]

Pics or it didn't happen, right? First pic is of the Kolsch with Kveik and the Irish Red with Kveik--both disappointments. Second is of the little 3 pounder. She's healthy and tracking well now.

First, CONGRATULATIONS! I'm very glad to hear she is doing well. What a cutie!

As for the update, now THAT'S a report! Thanks!

I found your comment about the high gravity beer really interesting, given that the traditional Norwegian beers that kveik strains have been used for are typically high gravity -- generally 1.078 OG or much higher. That might actually be their best use for me. I am fortunate to have full temperature control for my fermentations and not generally concerned about brewing a beer in two days instead of 3-14 days. I care mostly about the beer it produces and I have yet to find an application for kveik where it produces better beer than "conventional" strains.