Should I make another Starter and pitch again? Did I mess up? 1068 ESB

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HOoT_oWL

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Hi all,

I Brewed an ESB yesterday with 1968. The day before I made a 2L starter from a pack of 1968 ESB yeast.

When the wort was fully chilled(64 F) I went ahead and pitched the yeast into the 11 gallons of wort (1.060). I stirred gently and commenced siphoning the wort into 2 fermentors.

Last night I started thinking: Did all the yeast settle to the bottom and end up in the waste at the bottom??? or maybe just in the last fermenter filled? (I was battling the sludge with the siphon to get as much as I could at the end)

I wake up this morning to the 2nd fermenter really pumping out CO2 and and the 1st filled not really doing much but is off-gassing a little.

Do I need to make an hour round trip drive to go get another 1968 pack?
-OR-
Can I make a starter with my stir plate from the pumping wort??
-or-
should I just throw some US-05 in to get the cell count up?
Or-
should I mix the beers?
or-
just watch and wait?

Also- how long do I have, if it is in fact short on yeast, before I starting getting stress flavors?


THANKS for any and all help, cheers
 
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thehaze

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I think you need to wait a bit more. The fact that it has began " off-gassing a little. " that means fermentation is going on. I do not believe you will have to pitch again.
 

Gameface

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If the one has a nice healthy krausen and the other not so much, take some krausen from the one and add it to the other. All the yeast you could possibly need is right there.
 

Gameface

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And if you're going to intervene, sooner is by far better than later.

Even if the one that had less yeast had A LOT less yeast, they are reproducing as we type and will eventually be more than you'd reasonably be able to pitch in a starter or via krausen transfer or whatever other means. The problem then would be the sub-optimal conditions in which they have been, damage mostly already done.

But optimal pitching rates are just that, optimal. It isn't a pass/fail situation. Having a lower cell count in one fermentor very likely won't have a too significant an effect. It could if it really had a very very small amount of yeast cells, but if it was something like an 80/20 split, you might not even notice, or have to really try to notice.
 
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HOoT_oWL

HOoT_oWL

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theHaze -- I think you're right, the other one is blowing of CO2 like crazy now. Thanks for calming me down, LOL

GameFace -- This ought to be an interesting science experiment, to see if I notice a taste difference. They'll be going in 2 seperate 5 gal kegs, so we'll see. Thanks for the technical support.

I had read that 1968 can be a little finicky and does best with High pitch rate which is why I'm being so particular about this. Let the games begin!
 

PKnotlost

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Your method is kinda strange, you may want to separate your batches first so you’re more certain of what yeast you’re getting into the batch. And most agree to get wort going pitch when the wort is warmer.
Just some thoughts.
 
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HOoT_oWL

HOoT_oWL

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You're right, from now on I'll being separately pitching so that it's equal. For some reason I thought it would mix perfectly that way.

I had read that its good to pitch on the cool side and let it ramp up slowly because

1) You don't want yeast to drop much in temp to avoid dormancy.

2)The desired flavor profile is on the low side of things, then slowly bring up to clean up.

3)I have issues with my beers getting too hot quickly(Last night, I had ambient temp of 65F and my wort was 72F) i put it in the basement to cool off and now its 65F - hopefully it doesn't stall out, so I keep whirling/mixing it to keep it active.
 

Gameface

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I'm in the camp of chill wort to below fermentation temp, pitch yeast and let it rise to fermentation temp.

You can pitch warm, but then you better have active fermentation temp control because if fermentation takes off it'll keep your beer hot. And I fear more dropping the temp on yeast and temp swings because, and this is just what I've observed I'm not sure of the science on it, that decreasing temps, despite if they are in the yeast's appropriate temp range, cause the yeast to slow down and possibly start falling out. That's unlikely to happen at the beginning of fermentation when theirs so much yummy sugar to eat, but 36-48 hours in and I think any significant temp drop tells the yeast it's time to pack it in and take a nap.
 

PKnotlost

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I guess it really depends on your equipment and location, and I normally brew only in cold weather. Right now my garage where the beers ferment can be as low as 40, so I pitch the yeast when beer is about 70, and then leave the garage to cool down naturally (its up to 75 to 80) in there after brewing. So by next morning the temp in garage is 45ish and brew bucket is 55 to 65, but I can see where in different climates you could have problems. I have to raise the temps with a milk house heater or a brew bucket strap if they stall out. For me I cold crash by setting bucket outside over night.. One advantage of living in the frozen north.

I have a chocolate coffee beer fermenting at 57 degrees right now and its very happy, when it dies down I will add heat at 5 degree a time and let it start fermenting again and when it stops do it again till I get to 70 then quit and cold crash (but never open bucket).

I would never be opening and stirring though, you dont need to, if it gets to cold just add the heat, yeast doesn't need your help in that aria your just asking for infection. Try this take some yeast cake off your next batch, about 1/8 cup add into a quart mason jar fill 1/2 up with distilled water and put it in your fridge for a few days, all the yeast will be sleeping :) now take it out, add 1/2 cup of simple sugar try not to let the yeast get to it, and set it on the counter with no agitation or help in any way. You will learn that yeast do not need your help once the heat is turned up, they will find the sugar if they are awake and its there.
 

IslandLizard

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After chilling, did you pitch your yeast into the kettle, then siphoned the (now) beer* into your 2 fermentors?

If so it's very possible a lot of the yeast sank to the bottom without mixing.

As said already, after chilling, siphon the wort into your fermentor(s), aerate/oxygenate well, then pitch your yeast. If using multiple fermentors, pitch proportionally among them, depending on volume.

A 2 liter starter is a bit skimpy for 11 gallons of 1.060. Most of us pitch the slurry from a 2 liter starter in 5-6 gallons. We may overbuild a little, saving out some of the excess (~30-50) billion cells for the next starter, so we don't have to harvest the yeast later, or for when we want to start from a "fresh batch of yeast" again some time down the road.

Note:
*Wort becomes beer as soon as you add/pitch yeast.
 
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HOoT_oWL

HOoT_oWL

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After chilling, did you pitch your yeast into the kettle, then siphoned the (now) beer* into your 2 fermentors?

If so it's very possible a lot of the yeast sank to the bottom without mixing.

As said already, after chilling, siphon the wort into your fermentor(s), aerate/oxygenate well, then pitch your yeast. If using multiple fermentors, pitch proportionally among them, depending on volume.

A 2 liter starter is a bit skimpy for 11 gallons of 1.060. Most of us pitch the slurry from a 2 liter starter in 5-6 gallons. We may overbuild a little, saving out some of the excess (~30-50) billion cells for the next starter, so we don't have to harvest the yeast later, or for when we want to start from a "fresh batch of yeast" again some time down the road.

Note:
*Wort becomes beer as soon as you add/pitch yeast.


The question now is, do I pitch US-05 into each fermentor to get the count up or not?

Its been 2.5 days since I pitched the yeast
 

IslandLizard

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The question now is, do I pitch US-05 into each fermentor to get the count up or not?

Its been 2.5 days since I pitched the yeast
There's no need to pitch more yeast into the fermentor that "is blowing of CO2 like crazy now." But the other one that has not been showing ANY signs of fermentation,* definitely can benefit from a new dose of yeast.

* Signs of fermentation:
  • An appearance of a foamy krausen on top is the best sign
  • If the gravity has dropped (take a sample)
US-05 won't make an ESB, but it will make beer. Alternatively you could use S-04, a dry English yeast that's a bit closer to the style. There is also a dry version of an ESB yeast by Lallemand/Danstar. Your Local HomeBrew Store (LHBS) may have it. But if you need to order out, I wouldn't wait for it. Always rehydrate dry yeast exactly according to the manufacturers' directions before pitching.

If you want your beer closer to what you intended, get a fresh pack of WY1968 from your LHBS and make a "4 hour" vitality starter or a "shaken, not stirred" starter (look them up, Google is your friend), and pitch that into the ailing fermentor. If the gravity has not gone down, you may aerate/oxygenate, but don't do it if the gravity has dropped already (fermentation has actually started and there's alcohol present).
 
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HOoT_oWL

HOoT_oWL

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There's no need to pitch more yeast into the fermentor that "is blowing of CO2 like crazy now." But the other one that has not been showing ANY signs of fermentation,* definitely can benefit from a new dose of yeast.

* Signs of fermentation:
  • An appearance of a foamy krausen on top is the best sign
  • If the gravity has dropped (take a sample)
US-05 won't make an ESB, but it will make beer. Alternatively you could use S-04, a dry English yeast that's a bit closer to the style. There is also a dry version of an ESB yeast by Lallemand/Danstar. Your Local HomeBrew Store (LHBS) may have it. But if you need to order out, I wouldn't wait for it. Always rehydrate dry yeast exactly according to the manufacturers' directions before pitching.

If you want your beer closer to what you intended, get a fresh pack of WY1968 from your LHBS and make a "4 hour" vitality starter or a "shaken, not stirred" starter (look them up, Google is your friend), and pitch that into the ailing fermentor. If the gravity has not gone down, you may aerate/oxygenate, but don't do it if the gravity has dropped already (fermentation has actually started and there's alcohol present).

Ok, I'm playing it safe -- I pitched a packet of US-05 into the fermenter in question, because thats what yeast I have. This will help my understanding when I taste the final product side-by-side I think.

I am wanting to brew another beer and re-pitch this 1968 yeast cake with this one after I keg it, so I'll do that with the one that I did not pitch with US-05 to get a pure re-pitch of 1968.

Thanks for that super-helpful info, it goes a looooooooong way!
 

Gameface

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If you had pitched a packet of US05 into the one blowing off you'd had added, at most, 200Billion cells into a beer that currently has what I'd guess is more than 1 trillion cells in it at this point. You wouldn't be adding more cells in any meaningful way.
 
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HOoT_oWL

HOoT_oWL

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If you had pitched a packet of US05 into the one blowing off you'd had added, at most, 200Billion cells into a beer that currently has what I'd guess is more than 1 trillion cells in it at this point. You wouldn't be adding more cells in any meaningful way.
I realize my mistake in saying" blowing off" which in the brewing world actually refers to krausen coming out of the air lock and would mean its kicking ass with a huge count of viable yeasts.

What I really meant and should have said was it was the fermenter in question was simply off-gassing almost as much as the one that got most of the yeast, which was quite a bit.

3 full days later and it has slowed quite a bit.

Given the info above do you still think it was pointless to boost the yeast count with the us 05?
 

Gameface

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I realize my mistake in saying" blowing off" which in the brewing world actually refers to krausen coming out of the air lock and would mean its kicking ass with a huge count of viable yeasts.

What I really meant and should have said was it was the fermenter in question was simply off-gassing almost as much as the one that got most of the yeast, which was quite a bit.

3 full days later and it has slowed quite a bit.

Given the info above do you still think it was pointless to boost the yeast count with the us 05?
Super late reply... but yes.

Let's consider what is happening in a 3 day-old fermentation.

There is no more oxygen and you absolutely DO NOT want to add more oxygen at this point.

Oxygen allows yeast to multiply 8x faster than they multiply without oxygen.

Day one you want TONS of oxygen (okay so like 14-18ppm). Day two, once fermentation has started, you want ZERO oxygen.

So if you add more yeast on day 3, you are adding yeast to an anaerobic environment. They will not reproduce in any meaningful way. The yeast that were there day 1 did reproduce, and are probably now in the trillions. So what are your 200 billion (at best) cells going to do that the trillions already there are not doing?

Let's look at the ecosystem...

Yeast begin life on day one in a very happy place. Temps feel nice, there is TONS (tons and tons and tons) of food and all the oxygen they need to pop out several generations of babies to enjoy the wonderful bounty. Remember, all yeast, natural and the ones we buy, spend 100x time dormant compared to the time they spend eating and reproducing. This is a species that is ready to chill during the hard times and absolutely ready to go during the good times. Hopefully, as a brewer, you have just given them a golden age. They are going to write poetry about the early days spent fermenting your beer.

But things change quickly. The food goes away faster than they imagined. There are too many yeast cells and not enough sugar molecules. Their by-product, alcohol, is starting to make them sick. The healthy ones want to keep eating, but they are choking on alcohol. Most of the more sensible yeast have started to drop out and go dormant, waiting for better days to return. The stubborn one's continue their slow work on what food is left.

So you add more yeast at this point...

The new yeast cannot reproduce. There's no oxygen, no food and a toxic level of alcohol. So what do they do? Desperately fight against the hearty cells from the previous pitch who are still working. Are these newcomers somehow better in this environment? No they are not. The grizzled vets descended from the day one pitch are the best here. They will do everything you can hope will be done.

Don't waste your time throwing FNGs into 3 day wort. It is a warzone they are not ready to handel.
 
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