should i add my dark grains at mash out

[duelerx]

It's not wrong, though. I really admire Gordon Strong and I made a point to express that in my post, but I think it's fair to point out that his methods do not result in good beer (perhaps good enough beer for me is a more accurate description). I've tried to make good beer with Gordon's methods and moved on because they aren't good. I've learned that pH really is important (despite what Brulosphy would have you believe) and it's important from the tun, into the kettle, and then into the fermenter. This is stuff that pro brewers consider, why shouldn't we? Or are Strong's methods magic?

It works for Gordon and not you. Also the mashout method of steeping dark grains I believe is from Guinness not Gordon. I agree with Martin this technique depends on the recipe and what are your goals.

 

[stamandster]

I think we may have "jumped the shark" here with all the OT rants. OP just wanted to know if he should put dark grains at mash out (or close to it). Seems the consensus was yes, mostly for simplicity and to style for this particular category. And I think the OP did so? I'm sure once all is said and done he'll update us with his preference for this particular style and grain combination.

 

[brewbama]

Interesting that the technique is not supposed to produce enough roast flavors when my highest scores in competition are American Porter, English Porter, Baltic Porter, Irish Stout, etc…. For example, I used Curt Stock’s American Porter recipe (which was definitely not written using the techniques) and adapted it to the techniques learned in Brewing Better Beer and scored a 43 and two 42(s) in the three competitions I entered it in which included NHC First Round. Likewise, I’ve brewed every beer the same way for years and years regardless of the source recipe.

This ain’t the first time I’ve heard these arguments. I have been told the method is inferior before which motivated me to enter competitions in 2024 to get unbiased anonymous feedback. I thought maybe the critics are right. I could be brewing inferior beer. However, I have confirmed with data across 21 different BJCP categories that the naysayers are full of beans.

Here’s my first year of competition feedback (though one of the ribbons is for a mead and the belt is my monthly club challenge). Best of Show tap handle in the back.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Interesting that the technique is not supposed to produce enough roast flavors when my highest scores in competition are American Porter, English Porter, Baltic Porter, Irish Stout, etc…. For example, I used Curt Stock’s American Porter recipe and adapted it to the techniques learned in Brewing Better Beer and scored a 43 and two 42(s) in the three competitions I entered it in which included NHC First Round. Likewise, I’ve brewed every beer the same way for years and years.

I have been told the method is inferior before which motivated me to enter competitions to get unbiased anonymous feedback. I thought maybe the critics are right. I could be brewing inferior beer. I have confirmed with data across 21 different BJCP categories that the naysayers are full of beans.

Here’s my first yr feedback (though one of the ribbons is for a mead):

Great work!

 

[jcav]

Interesting that the technique is not supposed to produce enough roast flavors when my highest scores in competition are American Porter, English Porter, Baltic Porter, Irish Stout, etc…. For example, I used Curt Stock’s American Porter recipe (which was definitely not written using the techniques) and adapted it to the techniques learned in Brewing Better Beer and scored a 43 and two 42(s) in the three competitions I entered it in which included NHC First Round. Likewise, I’ve brewed every beer the same way for years and years regardless of the source recipe.

This ain’t the first time I’ve heard these arguments. I have been told the method is inferior before which motivated me to enter competitions in 2024 to get unbiased anonymous feedback. I thought maybe the critics are right. I could be brewing inferior beer. However, I have confirmed with data across 21 different BJCP categories that the naysayers are full of beans.

Here’s my first year of competition feedback (though one of the ribbons is for a mead and the belt is my monthly club challenge). Best of Show tap handle in the back.

Congrats on your wins! I am also a proponent of holding back my dark grains until ramp up to mash out. I get my mash ph set where I want it for the style I am making (let's say 5.2 as an example) and only mash the base grains without the dark grains, caramel malts, specialty malts etc. Then add the other grains during ramp up to mash out. The dark/specialty grains are in there the whole time during ramp up to mash out, during mash out, and during the sparge into the kettle. My beers are fantastic and eveyrone around here loves them so I always do it the same since I get stellar results. I learned this also after reading Gordon's books several years ago and after I tried it I was sold. That's what's great about brewing everyone has their techniques and whatever techniques they master on their equipment enables them to make great beer. There are many tools used along the way and there are many ways to skin a cat.

John

 

[sibelman]

So, "it's all good?"

 

[day_trippr]

"Peace in our time"

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think we may have "jumped the shark" here with all the OT rants.

The question on when to add dark grains is a periodic thread and historically can go done the path this thread took (the various steeping options are mentioned, someone mentions Strong's approach as the books contain additional information, posts claim they couldn't make it work, sometimes there was discussion about what went wrong in the failed attempts, ...).

In other topics in other forums, I've seen people post recipes that scored in the low 30s using this technique. I suspected it would take scores in the 40s to 'push back' on the 'forum wisdom' that this technique doesn't work. The scores are in and "time will tell" with regard to 'forum wisdom' adjusting to this situation.

In many respects, this re-occurring discussion is no different than the "extract is always darker than expected" belief from the 2015-2018 time frame. Once the primary cause of the failure (stale LME) was identified and a measurement for fresh/stale LME was identified (color of an OG 44 wort - which comes from published content around 2015), there were secondary waves of "ya, but" which resulted in a good list of other ways to fail when using LME. But in the end, 'forum wisdom' adjusted (for the better).

Expect to see future threads on "how to steep dark grains" that will likely goes down a similar path (perhaps with more discussion from people on processes that work as well from people who have yet to make it work).

On the flip side, if you don't see future threads, it could suggest that the LLM models are good enough at summarizing brewing techniques that people believe that they don't need Q&A discussion.

---

eta: To close out this post: yes, I've used the technique, yes, I made good beer; and no, I have no competition scores.

eta (2): added comment about people talking more about successes (as well as those who talk about failures).

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Brulosophy has dine 5 or 6 exbeeriments comparing different mashing and steeping methods for dark grains. They haven't produced major differences, or the results people expected in some case. One beer with cold steeped grains tasted of tobacco, when the mashed dark grain version didn't. The fully mashed version was preferred at least once.

It's largely about personal preference at the end of the day I reckon.

 

[Bobby_M]

Ask 10 brewers and get 10 different answers.

A recipe can be properly crafted to account for dark grains being in the for the entire mash or added in the last 5 minutes. If they are in for the entire mash, you'd use less. If they are added late, you'd use more. How much less or more? Well, if you're following someone else's recipe, you should know when THEY added it if you want the beer to be true to recipe.

Side note: This is why BrewFather has a field per grain entry that indicates late additions.


Mash pH will be affected. Do you need the acidity from the dark grains to hit the 5.0-5.6 range or do you want to just use lactic/phosphoric acid additions to hit it? Do you not care at all about mash pH? Move along.

 

[Bobby_M]

So… **Brewing Better Beer** and **Modern Homebrew Recipes** containing numerous award winning recipes doesn’t appeal to authority? Cool.

Here’s another appeal to authority: **Brewing Classic Styles** was also written by a 2x Ninkasi award winner, describing 80 award winning recipes, where only base malts are mashed, …and steeping grains are used throughout. Granted the recipes are written for extract but IMO all the brewer is doing in the mash is creating extract anyway. Especially since each recipe includes an all grain replacement for the extract near the end.

…and there are comments at the end of each of the paragraphs dedicated to the subject on pg 14 of BCS when speaking about caramel malts, kilned and roasted malts.

Ck it out for yourselves. Try both. …or not. Your call.

I'm just fine appealing to Jamil for whatever method he endorses, but I think it's an error to assume that his adaptation to all grain is suggesting that the specialty malts are not "in the mash". Nowhere in the text does it suggest that and if you've ever listened to his podcasts, he's never suggested or endorsed adding dark malts at the end of the mash or steeping them in the boil as an extra step. On the contrary, there was one brewstrong episode where a listener asked about mash capping dark grains and he (and Tasty McDole) basically said it's a waste of grain because you have to use more to get the same effect.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I don’t get why it’s such a big deal, and I don’t understand why people are quick to infer you’re not brewing “properly” if you don’t measure ph every step of the brewing process. If you like it, do it, cool, but don’t get on a high horse if many other people don’t.

 

[Bobby_M]

I don’t get why it’s such a big deal, and I don’t understand why people are quick to infer you’re not brewing “properly” if you don’t measure ph every step of the brewing process. If you like it, do it, cool, but don’t get on a high horse if many other people don’t.

Who inferred that? You didn't quote any post specifically.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Who inferred that? You didn't quote any post specifically.

Read through all the replies.

 

[mac_1103]

I don’t understand why people are quick to infer you’re not brewing “properly” if you don’t measure ph every step of the brewing process.

Who inferred that?

Read through all the replies.

I have and I assume that you're referring to #30 and #35, but all he did was say what he's learned and what he does. If you're making good to great beers without worrying about pH at each step, that doesn't mean that pH isn't important. It's a lot more likely to mean that you're getting the pH right without worrying about it. And eventually, if you brew enough different styles of beer, you're likely to brew one where you don't get it right without worrying about it and that one won't turn out good to great.

 

[Halfakneecap]

“dude sucks at brewing” lol among others.

Anyway I’m not losing any sleep, brew how you want

 

[Bobby_M]

Read through all the replies.

Typical forum decorum is if you want to make a point about something written, you quote or reply to the relevant posts for context. Then I asked specifically and you tell me to review the whole thread. Not cool, but I played along anyway and found not a single post where anyone suggested you had to measure pH at all, nevermind "at every step of the brewing process".

Whether you want to care about it or not, pH does play a role in brewing and dark grain plays a significant role in that (as does source water, salts and acid additions). You don't have to care about it and no one is interested in forcing you to care.

 

[Indian_villager]

LOL @ this thread.

This is a hobby, for fun. You can either get in, experiment, have fun and do it the way you like it, or turn it into a corndog waving contest.

For the style of beer you are gunning for I have personally capped it meaning adding the roast grains to the last bit of the mash while raising to mashout temp and had a very tasty beer on my hands. Its been a while since I did it will the full grain bill at the start so I don't have a direct comparison to quote for you.

As for what is "best", on something as subjective as the taste of beer that is to be determined by you, your capability to generate beer, and your ability to discern the difference.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Who inferred that? [Halfakneecap] didn't quote any post specifically.

FWIW, reply #30 seems to fit most the criteria. And don't overlook #39.

Getting back to the process in Modern Homebrew Recipes: given the scores posted in #43, it's hard to believe claims that the process doesn't work (at all for any style). It clearly works well for a number of styles. And, if some of the newer styles require acid adjustments, people will update this process accordingly.

 

[Yesfan]

Ask 10 brewers and get 10 different answers.

A recipe can be properly crafted to account for dark grains being in the for the entire mash or added in the last 5 minutes. If they are in for the entire mash, you'd use less. If they are added late, you'd use more. How much less or more? Well, if you're following someone else's recipe, you should know when THEY added it if you want the beer to be true to recipe.

Side note: This is why BrewFather has a field per grain entry that indicates late additions.


Mash pH will be affected. Do you need the acidity from the dark grains to hit the 5.0-5.6 range or do you want to just use lactic/phosphoric acid additions to hit it? Do you not care at all about mash pH? Move along.

.I didn't know Brewfather had that feature. Definitely good to know. Thanks!

 

[mac_1103]

“dude sucks at brewing” lol among others.

That wasn't directed at you, and it seems that he's far from the only person who holds that opinion. Personally, I have no opinion having never tasted any of his beers.

 

[Bobby_M]

FWIW, reply #30 seems to fit most the criteria. And don't overlook #39.

Getting back to the process in Modern Homebrew Recipes: given the scores posted in #43, it's hard to believe claims that the process doesn't work (at all for any style). It clearly works well for a number of styles. And, if some of the newer styles require acid adjustments, people will update this process accordingly.

I'm not seeing it. That was a counter argument to putting Strong's brewing process (in its entirely and including the topic of this thread) on a pedestal via criticizing his extremely simplistic pH adjustment recommendation. Side note, I don't even think Gordon actually addresses pH in the way he suggests in the book. I presume his intent was to barely graze the topic and come up with something simple. Either way, that diversion within this thread does not come across as an attack on the entire population of homebrewers who do not measure their pH.

 

[brewbama]

... Nowhere in the text does it suggest that … adding dark malts at the end of the mash or steeping them in the boil as an extra step. On the contrary, …it's a waste of grain because you have to use more to get the same effect.

It’s worth noting not only does BCS offer the suggestion but it is very explicit in the text on pg 14 — though I can imagine Palmer wrote this section. In three of the paragraphs on this page he (they?) say caramel/crystal, kiln (toast), and roast grains can be steeped. It is very clearly stated:

End of para 1: “these malts [crystal/caramel] can be steeped to release soluble extract”

End of para 2: “these malts [kiln] must be mashed to release soluble extract but can be steeped to impart some characteristic flavors”

End of para 3: “roasted malts can be steeped to release soluble extract”

As far as waste; we’re not talking pounds difference. It’s like an oz or three which is probably less than a dollar more dark malt at the HomeBrew level. Nothing to get cost conscious about IMO. Seriously, we’re talking about adding a cpl more oz of roasted barley to a Stout at vorlauf vs a cpl oz less roasted barley in the mash.

Again, if you choose to brew this way great, if not great. Your call.

Cheers!

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree. I imagine they (Jamil and Tasty (RIP)) added them to the main mash.

…but it’s worth noting not only the suggestion but the very explicit text on pg 14 of BCS — though I imagine Palmer wrote this section. In the three paragraphs on this page he (they?) say caramel/crystal, roast, and kiln (toast) grains can be steeped. It is very clearly stated.

As far as waste; it’s like a buck or three more at the HomeBrew level. Nothing to get cost conscious about.

Again, if you choose to brew this way great, if not great. Your call.

Cheers!

They're establishing which grains can and can't be simply steeped in a general sense but they are not saying that the specialty grains in all the recipes in the book should be steeped even when converting to the all grain version. Whether you'd want to try a late addition of roasted grains or not, it would be counterproductive to leave all the specialty malts out of the mash because you misinterpret Jamil's intent. It's written as an extract recipe book so all the grains are listed as "steeping grains" to keep them separated from the extract additions.

 

[Miraculix]

Also worth noting that pretty much every crystal malt is not fully converted and still contains starches. The tendency is that the lighter coloured the crystal, the more unconverted starches are still present within the malt.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I use Brewfather to formulate and store my recipes. Dark malts are not marked as non fermentable also some have degrees Lintner set to zero some have nothing set at all. Additionally Maris Otter has a Lintner of 55 rather than 120-140. However changing Lintner to 120 has no effect on the SG or ABV. I am mightily confused.
So for my stout recipes I’ve set the dark malt and zero Lintner to non fermentable also, I’ve added 15 mash out to the dark grain and changed the Lintner values as per this chart below, can someone confirm or otherwise my actions please.

Diastatic Power of Common Grains

2-Row Pale Malt -- 140		Flaked Oats -- 0
6-Row Pale Malt -- 160		Flaked Wheat -- 0
Maris Otter Pale Malt -- 140		Flaked Barley -- 0
Pale Ale Malt -- 85		Caramel/Crystal Malts -- 0
Pilsen Pale Malt -- 140		Chocolate Malt -- 0
Munich 10L -- 40		Black Malt -- 0
Vienna Malt -- 50		Roasted Barley -- 0
Rye Malt -- 105		Carapils -- 0
Aromatic Malt -- 20		Melanoidin -- 0
Honey Malt -- 50		Special B -- 0
Red Wheat -- 180		Carafa I, II, III -- 0
White Wheat -- 160		Brown Malt UK -- 0
Cherrywood Smoked -- 140		Belgian Biscuit -- 0

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

extremely simplistic pH adjustment recommendation

The anecdotals in #43 suggest the perceived level of complexity doesn't matter.

 

[brewbama]

They're establishing which grains can and can't be simply steeped in a general sense but they are not saying that the specialty grains in all the recipes in the book should be steeped even when converting to the all grain version. Whether you'd want to try a late addition of roasted grains or not, it would be counterproductive to leave all the specialty malts out of the mash because you misinterpret Jamil's intent. It's written as an extract recipe book so all the grains are listed as "steeping grains" to keep them separated from the extract additions.

I acknowledged early on in this thread that BCS is an extract (DME/LME) HomeBrew recipe book. I believe all I am doing when I mash base grains is producing the same wort solution as I would by hydrating extract though I have more control of the processes involved (i.e. temperature, deoxygenated RO strike liquor, salts, …). Otherwise, I draw no distinction between the two.

In Table 2 of BCS it says, “The following is a table of the malts used in the recipes sorted by type.” It lists Base Malts — Need to be mashed. Kiln Malts — Need to be mashed but can be steeped. Roasted Malts — Can be steeped or mashed. Kilned and Roasted Malts — Can be steeped or mashed.

That seems clear to me that they’re talking about 1) the recipes in BCS, 2) all grain (base malts), and 3) they’re recommending steep or mash for kiln, roast, and kiln + roast malts. The text is explicit.

Therefore, the choice is yours.

Every beer for the past several years I have withheld the roasted and kiln + roasted grains listed in this table as “can be steeped or mashed” for a 30 min hot steep at mash out temperature regardless of the source of the recipe. I have a year’s worth of anonymous feedback that this process works.

It doesn’t bother me if a fellow brewer chooses not to brew the way I choose to brew. It does bother me when they say it doesn’t work or that’s not what the text says. It does, and it does.

And if you think adding an oz or so of crystal and/or roast for a hot steep is wasteful, wait until you hear I don’t sparge. I compensate by adding a bit more base grain to the main mash. The deer love the sugars I leave them in the spent grain.

 

[Bobby_M]

I use Brewfather to formulate and store my recipes. Dark malts are not marked as non fermentable also some have degrees Lintner set to zero some have nothing set at all. Additionally Maris Otter has a Lintner of 55 rather than 120-140. However changing Lintner to 120 has no effect on the SG or ABV. I am mightily confused.
So for my stout recipes I’ve set the dark malt and zero Lintner to non fermentable also, I’ve added 15 mash out to the dark grain and changed the Lintner values as per this chart

diastatic power is a rating of usable conversion enzymes. That's the sugar making machine horsepower. Extract potential is the raw material. Increasing total DP would only raise gravity if the previous total DP was inadequate to convert all the starch.

 

[duelerx]

.I didn't know Brewfather had that feature. Definitely good to know. Thanks!

The same with Brun'Water

 

[MicroMickey]

https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/has-it-got-the-power/

It's fairly easy to estimate DP. Doing so on marginal grain bills might keep you out of trouble and becoming a victim of "buyer's remorse." If you've got the software, that's great but a pencil and a scrap of paper will give you the same results.

 

[Bobby_M]

This is not an endorsement of either steeping or mashing dark grains. Just an attempt to clarify a potential misunderstanding.

Roasted grain/malt is not 0% convertible starch (so mashing it will raise OG) and the yield you get from it is not 0% fermentable so it will also raise ABV. It's not anything like a base malt in those regards, but I don't want people to get the impression that it's some inert food coloring.

If you look at the malt analysis sheets, you'll see exactly how the exact potential changes between various malt/grain products.
Weyermann Pilsner malt:

Weyermann Carafa II special (roasted barley had similar numbers)

Some reference material about "Extract Dry Basis" from respected authors in the pro brewing industry:
https://probrewer.com/library/malt/understanding-malt-analysis-sheets/


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.2005.tb00648.x

Relevant table for discussion;

The base malt mash made 38.2 g/L of Maltose (60.1 total fermentable sugars) while the 50% Carafa mash made 21.3 g/L Maltose (35.9 total fermentable)

If roasted malts had no convertible starch, it would be expected that the 50% carafa mash would have exactly half the fermentable sugar.

This whole topic is a fascinating rabbit hole you can go down. If you read into that article it touches on lower nutrients, yeast inhibitors, etc which also suggests you might want to add more nutrient and be more careful with diacetyl rests with dark beers.

 

[brewbama]

To save the trouble of looking at every malt analysis sheet, in How to Brew Table 4.4 Palmer lists the yield for grains that can be steeped. He used 160°F for 30 min to collect his data. He lists it as points per lb per gal and points per kilo per liter.

 

[jcav]

Also as a side note BeerSmith also has a designation for each grain and one of the options for the grains is "sparge" so you can get the right numbers if you choose this option.

John

 

[fluketamer]

after 10 days the hydrometer readings seemed to have bottomed out at 1.011 for an abv of about 6. samples taste exceptional. very clean with a nice dry roastiness. not bitter or acrid at all. very smooth. not sweet , i can tell this will be really good. although it blew sulfer a few days ago 34/70 is one of the cleanest fastest highest flocculating yeasts i have brewed with