should i add my dark grains at mash out

[fluketamer]

im about to do my first dark AG beer. my take on a schwarzbier

6 gallons

10 lbs briess pilsner
.5 lbs chocolate
.5 lbs carafa 2
2 ounces black malt

im bittering with chinook. dont shoot me. i just cant take the fact that the 1/2 lb of hallertau that i recently got is 2.2 AA 2.2!!!!!!!! wtf is that . am i going crazy. i swore it use to be in the 5 range more than double what i just got. when i put an ounce into brewers friend at 60 min it came out to 7 ibu.

im going to use 34/70 at 59 degrees

can i just throw everything in the tun or should i wait with the dark grains til mash out ? theres a lot of conflicting info on adding them late. almost all the kit recipes i have seen say throw it all in,. but a lot of net chatter about later addition like mash out. or even seperate steep


thanks

 

[Drinking Sensibly]

There's a benefit to adding huge amounts of low alpha hops to beer to get the desired IBU. It makes better beer in my opinion.
In some way, the decision to steep or mash roasted grains is dependent on the chemistry of your water. Dark grains make the mash more acidic. This can be either good or bad.
If your water has a lot of caIcium/magnesium sulfate/chloride you might prefer to steep or add late.
If it has a lot of (bi)carbonate you might prefer to add them to the mash.
I prefer to add them to the mash to get as much out of them as possible and adjust the water chemistry accordingly.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Understand water chemistry and able to use a calculator to adjust for proper mash pH depending on grist makeup? Throw it in the mash.

Want to use the same water you use for pale beers and don't want to futz with a chemistry changeup? Put the dark grains in late.

There's a benefit to adding huge amounts of low alpha hops to beer to get the desired IBU.

Yep.

 

[stamandster]

As @DBhomebrew said, you can add the specialty dark grains at the last 15m of the mash. Doing so, you'll have reduced tannin and bitterness (like coffee/cocoa) but still have the flavor/color. You'll have a smoother Schwarzbier. In fact, I almost won 1st place with a Vienna lager in overall, but a Schwarzbier made that way won (bugger).

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

There's a benefit to adding huge amounts of low alpha hops to beer to get the desired IBU. It makes better beer in my opinion.

For all my big dark beers (imperial stouts), I've always used Magnum @60 for bittering (usually about 50 ibus), then EKG or Willamette @15 for flavor (another 15 ibus). And of course, by the time it's aged enough to be delicious, there really isn't any hop character left anyways. Not really looking to make my recipes more expensive, but willing to try bittering with only EKG (or Willamette), if you guys think it makes a big difference...

 

[BrewMan13]

I'm a big proponent of NOT adding your dark grains at mash out. If you have an understanding of your water chemistry and adjust as necessary for the style, and have a generally reliable process, you'll be fine. I could see maybe doing it for this particular style, and being that you're new to AG brewing. For the record my schwarzbier, which has done well in competition, is 8.2% dark grains, whereas you're at 10.1%. Also, I wouldn't personally recommend black patent or standard chocolate malt for a schwarzbier. I use an equal amount of carafa special 3 and chocolate wheat (softer than regular chocolate), but any of the less harsh dark malts would work.

 

[mac_1103]

If the black malt is just for color then adding it late or steeping it separately should be fine.

being that you're new to AG brewing

OP is not new to all grain brewing; it's just his first dark one.

 

[stamandster]

Instead of just taking our word for it, here are a few "exbeeriments" (take also with a "grain of barley")

https://brulosophy.com/2015/11/30/r...h-vs-capped-at-vorlauf-exbeeriment-results-2/
https://brulosophy.com/2020/11/02/r...eeped-in-a-robust-porter-exbeeriment-results/
https://brulosophy.com/2019/06/27/r...vs-capped-at-sparge-the-bru-club-xbmt-series/
https://brulosophy.com/2017/12/04/r...ld-steeping-vs-full-mash-exbeeriment-results/
https://brulosophy.com/2018/11/12/r...-mash-vs-steeped-in-wort-exbeeriment-results/

 

[fluketamer]

thanks for all the replies i added the dark grains with 15 mins left to the mash. the wort looks and tastes great i was a few point over and ended up with 5.5 gallons of 1.057 wort nice and dark. i think i lost more than usual to evaportation cause it was so cold outside today.

 

[MicroMickey]

Dark grains don't have any convertible starch and virtually no (if any) viable enzymes. They are as useful in the mash as a handful of broken bricks. At the beginning of the mash, I usually add enough crushed dark grains to adjust my mash pH. I add the remainder at the end of the mash just before the vorlauf.

 

[duelerx]

For a Schwars using husked dark grains I think it's a good way to smooth it out, Sinamar or using Carafa Special is my go-to for this type of beer and checking mash pH.

 

[waynetempro]

You should dump all of the grain in the mash except for the black malt. Because BM is basically charcoal and is used for coloring, sprinkle it in on top of the mash and do your regular 60 minute mash. That way you get maximum color extraction from BM and none of the charcoal taste as that part gets filtered by the grain bed.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

You should dump all of the grain in the mash except for the black malt. Because BM is basically charcoal and is used for coloring, sprinkle it in on top of the mash and do your regular 60 minute mash. That way you get maximum color extraction from BM and none of the charcoal taste as that part gets filtered by the grain bed.

That's not my experience of black malt tbh. And it has a slightly lower colour than roast barley, which is used to create much of the flavour of Guinness. I appreciate that we all perceive things differently.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Just listen to Micro Mickey and ignore the others as he know what he’s talking about.

 

[stamandster]

Just listen to Micro Mickey and ignore the others as he know what he’s talking about.

You're kidding, right?

 

[brewbama]

Appeal to authority: Gordon Strong is the only three time winner of the Ninkasi Award. He is the highest ranked judge in the BJCP. He holds dark grains to the vorlauf. He’s written books on it.

Many other brewers mash all the grains together. Many others have won Ninkasi and written books.

Your call.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Ive added all dark malts after the main mash for probably 15 years now. I tried it, liked it compared to adding at the start of the mash, and so have kept doing it. Less harsh to my taste buds.

Its really no big deal either way. No right or wrong

 

[Willy]

Note to self. Add darkest grains late in the mash and something about a vorlauf. Gotta look that up. Makes sense to me. I think.

 

[fluketamer]

prefermentation the wort did taste very smooth to me. i have a feeling this will be good.
since its so dark, and the abv will be about 6, can i age a schwarzbier like you can a stout.

 

[hungupdown]

Regular black malt is known to add astringant bitterness if mashed. While cool steeping, will extract the colour, without the bitterness.
The bitterness/astringincy, comes from the tannins, that are mostly in the husks. Huskless dark malts give colour, without the need to steep.

 

[Halfakneecap]

prefermentation the wort did taste very smooth to me. i have a feeling this will be good.
since its so dark, and the abv will be about 6, can i age a schwarzbier like you can a stout.

Of course you can age it. Up to you how long. Try it every whenever you want and drink it when you think its ready.

 

[mabrungard]

Appeal to authority: Gordon Strong is the only three time winner of the Ninkasi Award. He is the highest ranked judge in the BJCP. He holds dark grains to the vorlauf. He’s written books on it.

Many other brewers mash all the grains together. Many others have won Ninkasi and written books.

Your call.

Absolutely not! Gordon won the Ninkasi via his meads and through careful blending of his beers to produce the right flavor and aroma profiles. He does have an impeccable palate. But his habit of adding roast at mashout is not all it seems to be.

While I agree that Schwarzbier is a good candidate for this technique, it really depends on if the recipe was developed and refined based on that technique or the all-in technique. The mash out recipe uses a lot more roast in the grist in order to get the proper effect. If you use a mash out recipe and add all that roast to the main mash, it WILL be a roasty disaster.

 

[fluketamer]

Of course you can age it. Up to you how long. Try it every whenever you want and drink it when you think its ready.

i am not sure if i can drink 5.5 gallons of a dark 6 percent beer over the next few months and i dont want to tie up a whole keg for that long so i will prolly split it into a few minis to age for different lengths of time. i did that with a partial mash stout i brewed in fall of 2023 and it is now one of my best stouts ever.

 

[sibelman]

For a long time, I've been following Palmer's advice to steep dark grains, usually in wort removed from the kettle. I add the resulting liquid to the boil. Works well for me, but does require a separate pot on a basic induction plate, and a big strainer.

 

[Yesfan]

For a long time, I've been following Palmer's advice to steep dark grains, usually in wort removed from the kettle. I add the resulting liquid to the boil. Works well for me, but does require a separate pot on a basic induction plate, and a big strainer.

Wouldn't it be easier to just steep those grains like you would with an extract recipe? I don't know why Palmer would do it that way as it seems to be more things to have to clean in the end. The next time I brew a dark beer, I'll just add the dark grains at the last 15 minutes of the mash or steep them on the way to boiling like in an extract batch. The latter might be a better solution if you have a big grain bill going into a small mash tun.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I throw mine on top of the mash and stir them in with my paddle. Recirc for 10 mins while its draining.

You do need to add more, maybe 10-15%, but thats a handful on a standard 6G batch so im not bothered.

I dont brew many really dark beers, but when ive done stouts etc ive never had a lack of smooth roasty goodness.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Palmer's advice to steep dark grains

Is this the article (link, currently free article at BYO) by Palmer you are referring to?

The article is 'new to me', and on a first skim, this article appears to extend the Mary Ann Gruber article from Zymurgy in Jan 2002. @brewbama

I'll close this reply with the last sentence of the Palmer article:

The bottom line is that the brewing method makes the beer, and every change you make to the brewing method will produce a different beer.

Some changes you may like, and some you may not.

 

[Bramling Cross]

It sucks and it requires a bit of iteration, but I think it's best to learn how to manage your dark beer water chemistry in the tun. If you don't, you need to account for it in the kettle. There's no getting around chemistry, it happens whether or not its convenient for you. It sucks, it's not convenient, it requires work on your part, but it if you're serious about making excellent black beers, you've gotta put the work in. There's no magic-ing your way out of chemistry.

That said, schwarzbier is a great candidate for capping your mash with your dark bits. In fact, it'll likely help your light beer disguised as a dark beer because it'll drive down the pH a bit giving you a better pre-boil pH. Sinamar is also a valid alternative, but I think it makes a terribly bland schwarzbier.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I get around chemistry by simply adding the dark malts at the end of the mash. Im happy with my pale beers and mostly brew pale beers, so its easier for me to do what i do, and i also enjoy the results of adding dark malts after the mash. Why would i change?

 

[Bramling Cross]

One other thing, because I wasted 20gals of perfectly good beer listening to Gordon Strong's advice and I've gotta grudge, if you really know how to brew, including the manipulation of your water and the optimization of your pH throughout the brewing process, Strong's advice is laughably bad and produces bad beer!

Just try to adjust your distilled water to pH 5.0, you'll drive yourself mad. Assuming you can do that and arrive at a good mash pH, now what? Most beers, excellently made, require some pH adjustment post-mash/pre-boil. What does Strong have to say about that? Hoppy beers with lots of late hops also require pH adjustment late in the boil. What does Strong have to say about that? Even if you're really on top of things, sometimes you still need to tweak your pH post-boil. What does Strong have to say about that?

Gordon Strong is a monumental and overwhelmingly positive figure in contemporary homebrewing. We can respect his excellent work doing the unenviable task of establishing styles for competition purposes while still calling him out regarding his brewing methods. I admire his work, I'd love to have a pint with him, but dude sucks at brewing--because chemistry works the same for you, me, and Gordon Strong.

 

[brewbama]

So… **Brewing Better Beer** and **Modern Homebrew Recipes** containing numerous award winning recipes doesn’t appeal to authority? Cool.

Here’s another appeal to authority: **Brewing Classic Styles** was also written by a 2x Ninkasi award winner, describing 80 award winning recipes, where only base malts are mashed, …and steeping grains are used throughout. Granted the recipes are written for extract but IMO all the brewer is doing in the mash is creating extract anyway. Especially since each recipe includes an all grain replacement for the extract near the end.

…and there are comments at the end of each of the paragraphs dedicated to the subject on pg 14 of BCS when speaking about caramel malts, kilned and roasted malts.

Ck it out for yourselves. Try both. …or not. Your call.

 

[Halfakneecap]

Ive heard of Gorgon Strong, but am not too familiar ( down in Oz, so dont get out much ), so i just googled him. Pretty successful brewer and beer brewing Author. If his beer sucks, mine are terrible.

But i like them, so will keep doing what works for me, regardless of what chemistry says

 

[mac_1103]

will keep doing what works for me, regardless of what chemistry says

If it works for you, it's almost certainly because of what chemistry says.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

[...] calling him out [based on 2024 knowledge] regarding his brewing methods [published in 2011 / 2015]

seems a little harsh.

Wait. Let me check.

Yup. This is HomeBrewTalk.

Carry on.

 

[Bramling Cross]

seems a little harsh.

Wait. Let me check.

Yup. This is HomeBrewTalk.

Carry on.

It's not wrong, though. I really admire Gordon Strong and I made a point to express that in my post, but I think it's fair to point out that his methods do not result in good beer (perhaps good enough beer for me is a more accurate description). I've tried to make good beer with Gordon's methods and moved on because they aren't good. I've learned that pH really is important (despite what Brulosphy would have you believe) and it's important from the tun, into the kettle, and then into the fermenter. This is stuff that pro brewers consider, why shouldn't we? Or are Strong's methods magic?

 

[Halfakneecap]

Looks like quite a few people think the methods are good, and work.

If whats working for you works, great. But not everybody who does things different to you is doing it "wrong"

 

[Bramling Cross]

View attachment 863943
View attachment 863944

Looks like quite a few people think the methods are good, and work.

If whats working for you works, great. But not everybody who does things different to you is doing it "wrong"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

I put the work in, learning my chemistry, then tried his methods because they seemed so easy. His methods made significantly worse beer. You can try to leverage me off of that observation, but I put the work in and I know it's true.

 

[Miraculix]

It depends on what you're after. If you want something classic, like Köstritzer Schwarzbier, you don't want much roast at all. It's barely noticeable, but it's still pretty dark in colour.

My take on this would be to only use one roasted grain and pilsner malt. I see no benefit coming from multiple dark grains when the aim is a dark beer with very little roast and a dry finish.

My roasted grain of choice would be either carafa spezial 2 or, if you don't care about traditions but only are after the desired result, midnight wheat.

If you got your mash ph within the right range, you can throw it in at the beginning or at the end, doesn't make that much of a difference in my experience. That's because if you add it at the end, you will need to increase the amount to get the same colour. If you throw it in at the beginning, something like 5% roasted grains should get you into the right direction. If using midnight wheat, maybe add one or two percent more.

If you really want to minimise the roast, you could do a cold extraction over night and then add the extract at flame out into the boil. This is fun, but not necessary. Works great for a dark IPA though!

Bittering with Chinook will result in a tasty beer if you ask me, but it will be an American Schwarzbier as the Chinook flavour will come through. I'd emphasize this by adding a 10 minute addition, or switch to something neutral or nobel like magnum or ctz for the 60 minute addition. Perle also works great as a German hop replacement.

 

[sibelman]

if you're serious

enjoy the results of adding dark malts after the mash. Why would i change?

An eternal tension, eh?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This is stuff that pro brewers consider, why shouldn't we? Or are Strong's methods magic?

No reply as I'm adding 'mash capping' dark grains to my growing list of things that I avoid talking about here at HomeBrewTalk.