Serious Efficiency Problemo

[tokolosh]

How in the world does one get 48% eff?

I'm new to AG (just did 3rd batch), but have saturated myself with reading about it months prior to trying it. I was doing a DFH60 clone yesterday, everything went as well as could be expected.

Mashed @ 154 for about 70 minutes, I fly sparged with water approx 185 for about 25 minutes. Started my boil with about 6.5 gallons and ended up with about 5.25. Got everything transferred into the carboy, took my gravity reading.... 1.048. ***Wait a second, 1.048?!?!? How is that possible when OG is supposed to be around 1.072. Well, beats the hell out of me.

Could it possibly (and I'm really hoping here!) be my hydrometer? My first AG batch had a similar sort of unfortunate reading, but I just chalked it up to the first time around. I've tweaked a few things and was really hoping for the best on this one. I got a new hydrometer right before I started doing AG, the last one lay victim of small counter space. Is there a way to test the hydrometer beside putting it in 60 degree water? Some sort of test for accuracy at high gravity???? And how long should you 'let it sit' in order to be sure it's leveled out and reading accurately? Please god let it be so! Thanks for your help!

 

[McKBrew]

Can you post your recipe, specifically the grain amounts you used. How did the crush look? With more information we might be able to help out.

 

[SourHopHead]

185 is kinda hot, but other people here have more experience than I do. I sparge about 170ish depending on temp outside and my loss. There are a couple views on efficiency. You'll nail it down Here is a link from BobbyM:

All Grain

 

[tokolosh]

Can you post your recipe, specifically the grain amounts you used. How did the crush look? With more information we might be able to help out.

This is from the recipe:

13 Pounds 2-row (US)
6 ounces Maris Otter malt

.75 Warrior hops 16.4% AA (60 minutes) SEE NOTES ON HOPPING!
.50 Amarillo Gold 8.5% (35 minutes)
.50 Simco 12% (30 minutes)
.50 Simco 12% Dry hop
1.00 Amarillo Gold Dry hop
Irish Moss ( 1 tsp with 15 minutes left in the boil)

Any thoughts? I guess the OG was supposed to be 1.070, not 1.072 as I posted, but that doesn't make that big of a difference.

 

[heinz57]

I know the title says it's about batch sparging and you did a fly sparge on this brew, but this post is full of good information about efficiency.

Maximizing Efficiency when Batch Sparging.

I'd say a good read through that should help you out. If not, keep posting questions here, that's what the forum is for.

 

[eriktlupus]

off the top o me head i'd say your sparging too quickly and forming channels in your mash that is not allowing all the sugars to rinse out.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Well first thing, you should check the gravity of your runnings periodically to see how well you are rinsing. If your reading starting out are low gravity then that will indicate a poor sparge is taking place. Maybe due to channeling caused by sparging too dry. That is, you are draining faster than you are filling and are not keeping agood inch or two of standing water above the grain bed.

 

[tokolosh]

That is, you are draining faster than you are filling and are not keeping agood inch or two of standing water above the grain bed.

Yeah, I thought about that too, but i'm constantly checking levels of water and I haven't yet had less than an inch or so of water above the grain bed. I should start checking the gravity periodically though, that's a good idea!

 

[Jaybird]

25 min sparge is about 2x too fast for fly sparging IMHO go w/ 60 min.
example of sparge time calculation
7 gallons = (28qts/60min)=.47qts a min

Make sure you keep 2-3" of HOT 170-175 deg water on top of the grain bed, calculate your water need and only use that amount, so you drain the mash tun all the way and there is not any water in it when the sparge is over.
anyway that's where I would start.
Good luck
JJ

 

[wildwest450]

This is from the recipe:

13 Pounds 2-row (US)
6 ounces Maris Otter malt

Why 6ozs of maris otter?

 

[Special Hops]

1.048 OG does not mean 48% efficiency btw.

Aside from that - did you temperature correct the gravity reading? hot wort will read considerably lower grav.

 

[Bobby_M]

No one asked yet. Tell us about your mash tun. What is it made of and what is the separation medium in the bottom? It's probably one of the most important things to talk about when assessing fly sparge efficiency (besides time and temperature).

 

[Yooper]

Why 6ozs of maris otter?

Actually, the original was Amber malt (I found most of the recipe from DFH's founder) but I couldn't get it. I used MO in there, and it was perfect so I kept it in the recipe. I've later used the Thomas Fawcett amber malt in there, and it was ok, but I liked the few ounces of MO. It's probably not the least bit necessary, but it makes me feel better. I changed the hopping a bit- dropping palisades because I didn't like it, and upped the simcoe and amarillo, so I think the malt really doesn't have much impact anyway. I tried it with crystal, though, and it was bad, bad, bad. So I went back to the 6 ounces of MO.

I'm thinking that the sparge was way too fast, and maybe your crush wasn't very good.

What was the temperature of the wort when you checked the SG?

 

[tokolosh]

No one asked yet. Tell us about your mash tun. What is it made of and what is the separation medium in the bottom?

I use a coleman xtreme rectangular cooler, can't remember the liters off hand, but it holds about 20lbs max. To separate the wort I use CVPC tubing with slits every 1/2 inch or so. It holds temp really well and the CVPC seems to do its job too.

 

[tokolosh]

I'm thinking that the sparge was way too fast, and maybe your crush wasn't very good.

What was the temperature of the wort when you checked the SG?

The crush could be a problem... I honestly don't really know what a good crush looks like as I've only been getting grain from my LHBS and have nothing to compare it to.

I'm confused on fly sparge timing. So far, just in this thread, someone told me I was going to quickly and also too slowly. For you fly spargers out there, how long does it take you?
EDIT - Posted, then reread thread and saw this:

25 min sparge is about 2x too fast for fly sparging IMHO go w/ 60 min.
example of sparge time calculation
7 gallons = (28qts/60min)=.47qts a min
JJ

That seems good, but I would appreciate anyone's weigh in on this too!

The SG was coming out around 165 as I recall...

 

[TeleTwanger]

25minute sparge is kind of quick. It takes me 60minutes...My dogfish 60 clone uses 12lbs 2row and 6oz amber malt to get 1.070.

 

[giligson]

Don't forget the first part of his question - how do I check the hydrometer.

Here:
BYO - Calibrate Your Hydrometer and Fermenter: Techniques

 

[Yooper]

The SG was coming out around 165 as I recall...

If you checked your SG at a temperature of 165, that would be very inaccurate. It's best to cool the SG sample to under 90 degrees, then use a hydrometer adjustment tool.

Is the OG of the finished wort taken at 60 degrees, though?

 

[tokolosh]

sorry that's not what i meant.... i cool the wort before i check the hydrometer. It's usually around 60-70 by the time I check it. I thought you were wondering what temp the grain/wort was around the end of the sparge...

The OG was taken around the same 60/70 mark. I don't check the hydrometer until it's under 70, and I'm not overly concerned if my OG is a few points off from where I'm supposed to be so I don't bother making sure I'm at 60 even.

 

[ajf]

I'm confused on fly sparge timing. So far, just in this thread, someone told me I was going to quickly and also too slowly. For you fly spargers out there, how long does it take you?
EDIT - Posted, then reread thread and saw this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaybird
25 min sparge is about 2x too fast for fly sparging IMHO go w/ 60 min.
example of sparge time calculation
7 gallons = (28qts/60min)=.47qts a min
JJ


That seems good, but I would appreciate anyone's weigh in on this too!

OK, first the too fast or too slow issue. I never thought I would ever disagree with Yooper, but in this case she is wrong. Perhaps she misread or miswrote something, but your sparge was definitely not too slow. In fact, it is definitely too fast.

As for Jaybird's comment, I think that is also too fast for a wort of that gravity. I can collect about 7g of 1.050 wort in 60 minutes at 85% efficiency with a fly sparge. If I want to keep the same 85% efficiency for an OG of 1.070, I need to extend the sparge time to about 90 minutes. I'm not saying that Jaybird is wrong, just that his figures don't match my experience with my equipment.

I also don't think that a rectangular cooler is suitable for fly sparging. You will have a very shallow grain bed depth and a large surface area, both of which will encourage channeling (especially if you sparge too quickly).

I have a choice of 5g or 10g cylindrical coolers with false bottoms as MLT's. With a 90 minute sparge and an OG of about 1.070, I get about 5% higher efficiency with the 5g MLT than I do with the 10g. Last weekend, I verified that with the reduced grain bed depth in the 10g MLT, I was getting channeling problems that I don't get with the 5g. You sparged three times faster than I did, and with a shallower grain bed. Both of these factors will contribute to channeling.

With your equipment, I would probably switch to batch sparging. It will probably increase your efficiency, and will definitely save you a bunch of time.

-a.

 

[Grinder12000]

Have you checked your PH?

 

[Jaybird]

As for Jaybird's comment, I think that is also too fast for a wort of that gravity. I can collect about 7g of 1.050 wort in 60 minutes at 85% efficiency with a fly sparge. If I want to keep the same 85% efficiency for an OG of 1.070, I need to extend the sparge time to about 90 minutes. I'm not saying that Jaybird is wrong, just that his figures don't match my experience with my equipment.

-a.

I was giving a general calculation on a 60 min sparge.

I do adjust my sparge time to match my gravity. An easy rule I came up with is 1 min per gravity point (roughly) if I am shooting for 1.070 I will sparge for aprox 70 min, if 1.055, shoot for 55 min ( I never go below a 50 min sparge).
Cheers
JJ

 

[schristian619]

As a fellow fly sparger, i would agree with most on here. I typicall sparge for 45 minutes plus or minus with 190F water. i know that may seem high, but my efficiency shot up whe I started using hotter water. I think equipment and crush are your main issues. i wouldn't try to fly sparge in a rectangular cooler for the reasons already mentioned. I use a 10 gal water cooler from HD with a false bottom. Also, get yourself a grain mill. I went from 55-60% efficiency to 75-79% with the addition of a barley crusher! Also check your water. I talked to my LHBS about it and they said they just use tap water through a charcol filter for their brewery (Ballast Point Brewery), so I started uing that and that helped as well.

 

[deviantwarthog]

OK, first the too fast or too slow issue. I never thought I would ever disagree with Yooper, but in this case she is wrong. Perhaps she misread or miswrote something, but your sparge was definitely not too slow. In fact, it is definitely too fast.

As for Jaybird's comment, I think that is also too fast for a wort of that gravity. I can collect about 7g of 1.050 wort in 60 minutes at 85% efficiency with a fly sparge. If I want to keep the same 85% efficiency for an OG of 1.070, I need to extend the sparge time to about 90 minutes. I'm not saying that Jaybird is wrong, just that his figures don't match my experience with my equipment.

I also don't think that a rectangular cooler is suitable for fly sparging. You will have a very shallow grain bed depth and a large surface area, both of which will encourage channeling (especially if you sparge too quickly).

I have a choice of 5g or 10g cylindrical coolers with false bottoms as MLT's. With a 90 minute sparge and an OG of about 1.070, I get about 5% higher efficiency with the 5g MLT than I do with the 10g. Last weekend, I verified that with the reduced grain bed depth in the 10g MLT, I was getting channeling problems that I don't get with the 5g. You sparged three times faster than I did, and with a shallower grain bed. Both of these factors will contribute to channeling.

With your equipment, I would probably switch to batch sparging. It will probably increase your efficiency, and will definitely save you a bunch of time.

-a.

when you sparge for 90 min. vs 60 min. do you use more water, or a slower flow?

 

[ajf]

Slower flow rate.

-a.

 

[deviantwarthog]

thanks for the reply.I have one more question.whats the best way to determine how much water to sparge with.say my mash volume is 4 gal.the grain weight 15 lbs.I
normally use 4.5 gal to sparge with,but i don't know if i can or should use more.
my wert gravity is usually lower than i feel it should be.

 

[Yooper]

thanks for the reply.I have one more question.whats the best way to determine how much water to sparge with.say my mash volume is 4 gal.the grain weight 15 lbs.I
normally use 4.5 gal to sparge with,but i don't know if i can or should use more.
my wert gravity is usually lower than i feel it should be.

Sparge up to your boil volume. Then you know you have enough!

 

[Dilligans]

just do what I do.. Batch sparge.. my brew day is only 5 hours at the most when I batch sparge.. Oh and yes buying a barley crusher is a must.....