Secondary Mashing of the Spent Grain?

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The Gulper
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Gentlemen, I'm going to brew a Whitbread X 1837 soon, a great recipe where just 54% attenuation is required: from 1.072 to 1.033.
Just Chevallier Malt and Goldings, nothing more. A historical SMaSH to better appreciate the reborn Barley variety.
To achieve such a low attenuation, I'll have to mash very high (72C/160F), thick (1:2) and short (45 mins.). Then I underpitch it with M15 Empire Ale [Windsor] and ferment cool. If I'm lucky, I'll get what I want: a brothy goodness they used to drink in the 1830s.

I suppose, after such a mash (and a short BIAB fly-sparge no sparging, I'll better make a full-volume BIAB mash) plenty of dextrins will still remain in the grist, which beta-amylase have never touched yet.
What do you think, is there any sence to mash this grain again - like, f.ex., 120 mins. at 62C/145F for a smaller beer?

I probably need to emphasize, I'm not about partygyling this time (for that I'd need a bigger volume, while this batch will be very small as I don't have a lot of Chevallier).
I'm rather about the "secondary convertion". Is it unheard of? Or is it a legitimate practice, albeit not very well known one?


I know, there is such thing as Herrmann Verfahren in Weissbier brewing, when after the Dextrinization rest you cool the mash back to 45C and mash it low again for some time, to produce more Glucose in order to achieve more "banana". So I thought why not to try something similar to salvage my intentionally underconverted Chevallier.
 
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GrowleyMonster

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Replying mostly because I want to see the answers from more knowledgeable and experienced brewers in my feed, but I don't think you will get much. Maybe add some more malt and then re-mash? Say a 25% addition of a pale 2-row base malt? Fresh enzymes and all, it might help squeeze out that last dab of goodness from the "spent" but underconverted grain with no real damage to taste or color, just lightening both a bit. To be fair, second squeezings from that are going to be pretty light anyway, I suspect.
 

DBhomebrew

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I wonder if a worthy amount of dextrins/sugars would remain in the grist or would it be in the wort?

It sounds like what you're talking about is sort of a partigyle, just adding another mash to the second runnings. Really third runnings after the fly sparge.

A real partigyle mixes the two worts, most of the yummy goodness is in the first. My understanding is a beer made with just the second can be rather bland, even if the gravity is decent.

🤔
 
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Actually, I don't think "mild" was a style in the 19th century. Just an indication that it wasn't aged.
Exactly. It seems, they classified their products along somewhat different lines than we do now.


I expect this beer to give me a bright insight on the flavour of the Chevallier Malt. I've brewed several old beers with it, and each time the enormous hopping was totally overbearing the malt flavour. I get that Chevallier may take much more hops than other malts. But I still don't get what's the flavour of its own, regardless of hops. That's why it's an extremely malty Mild this time.
 
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I think the main thing is that most all starch/dextrines/soluable gelatinized stuff will be mainly in the primary wort and very little left in the husks to rinse out and/or convert with more added enzymes. I would be surprised to find more than another gallon of spargable wort remaining.
 
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Yes, obviously. I'm just not sure, if it goes exactly the same for a significantly shorter and hotter mashed grist.
Intuitively, it should have some fermentables left. Even more so, with a no-sparge BIAB, which leaves more sugars in the grain than any Sparge-involving method.
If I mashed it for 2 Hours instead of 45 mins, it would certainly extract more sugars (as it always does, that's why I like to do super-long mashes). So, maybe it's worth to try to squeeze those extra sugars. How much of them are there, that's another question that needs experimentation.
So, will try and report on my findings.
I already got here a nice tip regarding the need to add some fresh enzymes. I missed that somehow.
 

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I wonder if a worthy amount of dextrins/sugars would remain in the grist or would it be in the wort?

It sounds like what you're talking about is sort of a partigyle, just adding another mash to the second runnings. Really third runnings after the fly sparge.

A real partigyle mixes the two worts, most of the yummy goodness is in the first. My understanding is a beer made with just the second can be rather bland, even if the gravity is decent.

🤔
To do a real parti-gyle you use enough grain for 2 beers or 3 beers or however many you want to run. Then take the first runnings, second runnings, etc seperately. A pound of grain only has so much sugar to give up. So you can’t just make a mash with grains for one beer and keep running it. If your 5 gallon recipe has 10 lbs of grain and you want 2 or more beers then you are starting your mash with at least 20 lbs of grain. The first running will be the strongest and each run after that will drop off.

This is how Fullers makes several beers from one mash. They start with a giant mash and run it from what I read 3 times. They collect each running seperately and then blend them in combinations to get the beers they want of different strengths.
 

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Miraculix

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Gentlemen, I'm going to brew a Whitbread X 1837 soon, a great recipe where just 54% attenuation is required: from 1.072 to 1.033.
Just Chevallier Malt and Goldings, nothing more. A historical SMaSH to better appreciate the reborn Barley variety.
To achieve such a low attenuation, I'll have to mash very high (72C/160F), thick (1:2) and short (45 mins.). Then I underpitch it with M15 Empire Ale [Windsor] and ferment cool. If I'm lucky, I'll get what I want: a brothy goodness they used to drink in the 1830s.

I suppose, after such a mash (and a short BIAB fly-sparge no sparging, I'll better make a full-volume BIAB mash) plenty of dextrins will still remain in the grist, which beta-amylase have never touched yet.
What do you think, is there any sence to mash this grain again - like, f.ex., 120 mins. at 62C/145F for a smaller beer?

I probably need to emphasize, I'm not about partygyling this time (for that I'd need a bigger volume, while this batch will be very small as I don't have a lot of Chevallier).
I'm rather about the "secondary convertion". Is it unheard of? Or is it a legitimate practice, albeit not very well known one?


I know, there is such thing as Herrmann Verfahren in Weissbier brewing, when after the Dextrinization rest you cool the mash back to 45C and mash it low again for some time, to produce more Glucose in order to achieve more "banana". So I thought why not to try something similar to salvage my intentionally underconverted Chevallier.
The Hermann Verfahren includes the removal of a certain percentage of the wort at the very beginning of the first temperature step, to keep the beta amylase intact. Then the rest is step mashed as usual, which denatures most, if not all of the beta. After chilling it down again to beta rest temperature, the removed part of the wort is added back to provide beta amylase again.

If you don't remove any of the wort at the beginning, you won't have any enzymes for a second mash left.
 
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