Secondary Fermentation

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tronnyjenkins

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Hey guys, new here and had a quick question regarding my first batch. I followed the Palmer method and read the entire guide beforehand. My recipe is viewable here. http://hopville.com/recipe/168866/maibock-helles-bock-recipes/german-maibock. I am hoping for a Rogue Dead Guy type beer.

My question is regarding when to rack to secondary. I know that it is important to reach final gravity before proceeding to secondary. I also know from the guide that the less time the fermenting beer sits on the trub the better, as it can impart off-flavors. My original gravity was 1.071. The 1338 yeast was really fresh, and must have been happy because it was bubbling in 14hrs. Any thoughts on my secondary rack timing?
 
Welcome to the board. I hope that you find as much information and guidance as I have found here, which is a lot.

The bigger part of this question is:

To secondary or not to secondary?

Which is a hot topic on this board. However, there are many award-winning homebrewers who never use a secondary with great results. There is a large portion of this board who never, or at least rarely, use a secondary.

I use to use a secondary. Then I tried a beer that spent 3 weeks on the primary with no secondary and I have not used a secondary since.

As far as off flavors, many people believe that it takes months to produce these flavors under normal fermentation temperature.

So, I can't tell you when I would use a secondary. Because I wouldn't. But if you want to use a secondary, I would wait until the beer completely fermented and had some time on the yeast. What I do is watch until the krausen falls. Once it falls, I wait the same amount of time before racking. For example, if krausen falls at 7 days, I wait at least 7 more before racking.

But that is just my process. YMMV.

Eric
 
I know that it is important to reach final gravity before proceeding to secondary. I also know from the guide that the less time the fermenting beer sits on the trub the better, as it can impart off-flavors.

You're dealing with some outmoded beliefs. There's been a big shift in brewing consciousness in the last few years where many of us believe that yeast is a good thing, and besides just fermenting the beer, that they are fastidious creatures who go back and clean up any by products created by themselves during fermentation, which may lead to off flavors.

Rather than the yeast being the cause of off flavors, it is now looked at by many of us, that they will if left alone actually remove those off flavors, and make for clearer and cleaner tasting beers.

You'll find that a great many folks, maybe even the majority on here these days, leave their beers in primary for 3-4 weeks, skipping secondary. Many of us even dry hop in primary, and only rack to secondary if we are adding oak or fruit, or had fruit in the boil or primary and left lots of trub behind.

Even John Palmer talks about this in How To Bew;

How To Brew said:
Leaving an ale beer in the primary fermentor for a total of 2-3 weeks (instead of just the one week most canned kits recommend), will provide time for the conditioning reactions and improve the beer. This extra time will also let more sediment settle out before bottling, resulting in a clearer beer and easier pouring. And, three weeks in the primary fermentor is usually not enough time for off-flavors to occur.

And this;

John Palmer

As a final note on this subject, I should mention that by brewing with healthy yeast in a well-prepared wort, many experienced brewers, myself included, have been able to leave a beer in the primary fermenter for several months without any evidence of autolysis.

People have left it as much as six months.

This is where the most up to date brewing wisdom and ideas can be found...In fact a lot of stuff has been started on here, and made it into byo or zymurgy or podcasts...in fact BYO DID a piece on no secondary/long primary, along with the BASIC BREWING PODCAST and even they said that there were no issues/harm with doing it and in some beers it did actually improve the flavor and clarity. And I believe that really WAS influenced by the discussion we have had for the last couple years on here.

Your beer should be crystal clear, very clean and crisp tasting. And when you rack to bottle you leave behind a really dense yeast/trub cake.


Believe me, after three years of doing the long primary/ no secondary I find no need to go back to doing it any other way. The quality of my beers has upped 10 ten fold.


As have my judging scores in contests. There's at least one beer among the 3-4 different one's I enter in contests where a judge notes the clarity and crisp taste of my beers- One was even described as "Jewell like in appearance."
 
Hmm. I guess it's possible that I skimmed over that part in the Palmer guide. I was reading pretty excitedly after all.

You guys' points being made, Are there any specific things to watch for before I bottle if I try the three weeks in primary? Is it just preference as to the time period?
Also, I'd like to harvest some yeast, will it still be effective if I try this method?
I was prepared to do secondary, so I have a glass carboy to go with my kit. Can I use this for an additional primary fermentor, or will there be enough headspace for the krausen? (I'd love to get another batch up and running)

Last question. When I was pouring the cooled wort into my cool pre-boiled water we had a little space, due to evaporation during the boil. We topped off the amount to just under five gallons using an Ozarka single gallon. My friend was pouring and she kind of dribbled a bit onto the side of the bottle. I immediated thought "crap! We should have sanitized that bottle!" Do you think we could have contaminated our batch?
 
I've primaried 2 batches in glass now. It works great and you can see what your beer is doing - very cool! The first batch was a lager and so the fermentation was slower and I had no problem with head space. The 2nd was an irish red that I used Nottingham with. I aerated very well and it took off like a rocket... it bubbled over a little bit.

I use a 23 Lt carboy (its actually about 24.5 Lt to the top). I would recommend filling it to the mid point, or just below, where it curves in toward the opening. To the shoulder of it, if that makes any sense.

You can play with it from there, just have a towel to tie around the top if it starts bubbling over on you. And make sure that the airlock is well sterilized and filled with clean water. I've had a couple (wine and beer) bubble over on me with no problems from it except a bit of mess.

Edit: make sure to keep it in a dark place or cover it with something as light can spoil your beer.
 
I also know from the guide that the less time the fermenting beer sits on the trub the better, as it can impart off-flavors.

that is totally not true for ales. many people leave their beer on the yeast for many weeks with no problems. during and after primary fermentation the yeast are cleaning up after themselves this actually reduces off flavors. the longer you let the beer sit on the yeast the more time the yeast has to clean up your beer. since your new to brewing i would avoid racking to a secondary and just leave the beer on the yeast for 3-4 weeks then bottle.
 
excellent. thank you all for the responses. any others should definitely chime in also if they feel the urge.
 
I have full capabilities to secondary my ales, I have a fleet of carboys.....all that I use them for now is bulk aging big beers.

Leaving your beer in primary for 3-4 weeks before bottling works fantasticly well. I feel that you get better floculation, better attenuation and a cleaner, crisper overall product using this method.

If you really want to get a clear beer, try fermenting a beer with nottingham at 62-65 degrees and leaving it in primary for 3 weeks. You will have jewel clear beer and yeast stuck like glue to the bottom of your fermenter.

I currently have a dunkel/maibockish type thing fermenting at home right now. Pacman yeast at 60 degrees. I will leave in primary for 3 weeks and then bottle. Heck, I have had great luck bottling a few after just two weeks...don't tell anybody though.
 
So what Revvy is saying is I should retire the 5 Gal. Glass and get the bucket back out if I want to brew more than one batch at a time?

Thanks. My Kolsch was starting to slow down and I was thinking about racking it so I could start another batch, but now I think I will wait.
 
So what Revvy is saying is I should retire the 5 Gal. Glass and get the bucket back out if I want to brew more than one batch at a time?

Thanks. My Kolsch was starting to slow down and I was thinking about racking it so I could start another batch, but now I think I will wait.

You will want to do a secondary fermentation with a kolsch. Primary cool for 2-3 weeks as we stated above...then for a kolsch you want to cold crash and then lager the beer off of the main yeast cake for another period of time...at least a week...but basically as long as you can wait...the longer the better. I have never been able to wait more than two weeks to bottle a kolsch...but I bet if you lagered one for six weeks it would be oh so nice.
 
I went to the seondary after 17 days.........my SG stayed close to the same for a couple days so fermentation was slowed down to a crawl. I just want to follow that method before I tried a primary only.

my LHBS said 10 days in primary then 10 in secondary. I'm not sure I know some on hre go 3 weeks in primary and 1 to 2 in secondary.

It's really going to be up to you just read and search the topic is all over the place....

I'm a newbie so I'm just going with my gut that if using a secondary worked for so long why not stay with it....also I need to learn ...........
 
If you plan on transferring to a secondary I would do it when the SG is stable and near your predicted FG. However, I agree with what most have already said. I only use a secondary for dry hopping and fruit beers.
 
Thanks Permo.

I took the holidays off from brewing (No Money). So my stock pile is starting to get a little low. Consequently, I don't think I will be able to wait for the lagering stage. This time I will probably bottle it after the Primary and then stick 12 of them in the back of the fridge for a month after they have carbed and see how they develop. I have been brewing for less than a year so I am still on the hunt for recipes I like to have on hand all the time. Once I have a handful of recipes I like and another better bottle Primary it will be time to play around with the more time consuming processes.
 
Hey guys, its been 19 days in primary, should I bottle tonight?
(it hasn't done anything visible in at least three days...)
 
Maybe you guys aren't as sensitive to yeast as I am. Other than a recent premature rack on a dark lager, I usually leave it in the primary until it's done (no bubbles for several days, stable gravity, as much as 3 weeks sometimes) then rack to secondary and I get a ton of yeast dropping out. I've gotten up to 1/4 inch of yeast in my secondary, which presumably would have ended up in my bottles otherwise. I personally believe in the secondary fermenter. Drinking a lot of yeast can leave you feeling pretty awful the next day. I would recommend getting as much out as humanly (zymurgically?) possible before you drink.
 
I would confidently say that it has been stable for four days.
I don't really mind the yeast, but I do want my beer to taste "done".
 
OK, so we were going to bottle today.
I was going to take a hydrometer reading, but forgot and transferred to the bottling bucket which I already added the 4oz priming sugar/water to.
Then I realized I forgot the gravity reading. To my dismay it was 1.030 or so.
No activity for about a week now, and it's been in primary for three weeks! I just figured it was surely done.

My question is, why would the yeast have given up?
When we racked to primary it was only like 4.2-4.5 gallons, could the higher-than-expected alcohol have killed 1338 euro?

Our second batch, a Rochefort 8 clone, was moved to secondary today, and it was all the way down to 1.018. Tasted pretty good too.

What the heck?!
 
ya, thats what I figured.
I am going to pitch another yeast packet, a 1338.
I am also going to top off the batch to 5 gal. Might as well right?

how many days do you guys think it will take to get down to where I need to be???
 
ya, thats what I figured.
I am going to pitch another yeast packet, a 1338.
I am also going to top off the batch to 5 gal. Might as well right?

how many days do you guys think it will take to get down to where I need to be???

I don't know how long it'll take to be un-stuck, but definitely don't bottle at 1.030!

Why do you want to top off to 5 gallons? Is the beer too strong tasting, and needs to be watered down? What was the OG, and what was the projected OG? The reason I ask is because rarely do I taste a beer and say, "This beer would be better if I watered it down".
 
Well, I agree with not wanting watered down beer, but my original gravity was a little high. I only added about half a gallon anyway. It barely decreased the gravity. 1.028.
 
Ok, so the fermentation is down to about 1.020. Think it could be bottled?
I figure I will do it Sunday. The thing that puzzles me is that the yeast is still on top. Should I really wait for this stuff to fall? I have read that 1338 may not end up on the bottom?

On a side note,I just took a sample to test with the hydrometer, and it tasted really good.
 
If you plan on transferring to a secondary I would do it when the SG is stable and near your predicted FG. However, I agree with what most have already said. I only use a secondary for dry hopping and fruit beers.

Can you not dry hop to a primary if your intention is to leave the beer in the primary?
 
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