Second brew feeling creative (Stout Idea)

[Taketwofl]

So I'm coming here not only to introduce myself to the community but I am seeking advice. So to start I've been browsing around for a simple stout recipe that isn't handed to me in a kit and handed to me, as well as playing with this new app I've found. So here is a basic recipe I've constructed. Please feel free to recommend anything (if you do please explain why so I am able to learn!) thank you all in advanced!

O.G. 1.072
Color: 62 SRM
IBUs: 17
Predicted ABV: 7.7%

Looking to do this in a 5gal batch

•1lb roasted barley
•6oz chocolate malt
•8oz crystal 120
•3lbs wheat LME
•6lbs light LME

Hop additions

•1oz Northern Brewer (60 mins)
•1oz Cascade (20 mins)
•1oz East Kent Golding (5mins)

I was looking to possibly add a vanilla bean toward the last week in the secondary to help offset some of the chocolate but I'm unsure how strong a flavor it will pull. Again I appreciate all help and I am still very new to understanding this all but am already in love!

-Michael

 

[Sammy86]

I would up the IBU's if it were me. 2015 guidelines say minimum 20 IBUS for a stout...you want to make sure you have some bitterness to counteract the sweetness of the stout as well the alcohol taste you may get from having a 7.7 ABV.

Just a recommendation though...also what yeast are you planning on using?

 

[Taketwofl]

I was planning to use some sort of American Or Irish Ale not entirely sure yet. Would it be better to make a separate hop addition or up the amount of each I'm putting in would you say?

Also thank you for the insight. My research didn't give me much on IBU inputs as you might have guessed.

 

[Gerry_P]

I'll second the IBU comment. If it was me, I'd shoot for at least 30. Not that you have to get hung up on guidelines or anything, but a 20 IBU stout might not meet your flavor expectations. Personally, I don't use much if any hop flavor or aroma in stouts, just bittering hops, but I'm old-school that way so you can ignore that. 62 SRM is high for that kind of stout, but I don't think it will necessarily be a problem. If you think you have too much chocolate malt you can substitute pale chocolate for part of it, but I don't think that's mandatory and 6 oz. isn't a lot. If you add a little lactose you'll have a recipe for a ramped-up sweet stout, but honestly I don't know how well that would work with your hop situation. I like the wheat and the Northern Brewer hops in your recipe. Generally speaking I think your recipe looks ok, just add some more Northern Brewer at 60 min. One last thing: you can save some effort and skip the secondary. Just toss your vanilla bean into the fermenter a week before you bottle/keg.

 

[Taketwofl]

Gerry thanks for the advice. It seems I need to work with getting my IBUs up for sure. I'm not fan of super sweet stouts so I was trying to keep the chocolate on the low side with a hint of it so I'm hoping that will work.

With the color and hop comments. Would you suggest any different hops over the ones I've looked into as of now? What would be the most effective way of bringing my SRM to a more acceptable level of a stout without sacrificing too much that goes into it?
(I'm sorry for the novice questioning but I feel I learn a lot more with actual interaction as I have no LHBS in any distance reasonable where I'm currently at)

 

[Challenger440]

Exactly what type of stout are you going for? Without rattling off the styles, your recipe conjures elements of several styles (of stout). The Crystal 120 as well as the OG sing of Imperial Stout. I personally wouldn't use cascade as any type of flavor addition. I think you should think about whether you want a more stout that feels english (pleasant esters, yeast character) or american (clean fermentation, no real yeast character).

Also for the sake of looking over the recipe, could you add the Lovibond rating for the steeping grains and the AA% for the hops?

 

[Taketwofl]

Challenger, yes. I honestly was mixing and matching from recipes that seemed to have decent reviews from other brewers. I haven't had any experience with a lot of the materials so I'm kind of mixing and matching and probably making some weird crazy stuff. I'll post the % as soon as I can get home and off this dang duty I'm standing at the moment.

 

[Taketwofl]

Exactly what type of stout are you going for? Without rattling off the styles, your recipe conjures elements of several styles (of stout). The Crystal 120 as well as the OG sing of Imperial Stout. I personally wouldn't use cascade as any type of flavor addition. I think you should think about whether you want a more stout that feels english (pleasant esters, yeast character) or american (clean fermentation, no real yeast character).

Also for the sake of looking over the recipe, could you add the Lovibond rating for the steeping grains and the AA% for the hops?

Here is what you asked for in order to help Challenger, I've added some revisions as well!

O.G. 1.072
Color: 60 SRM
IBUs: 46
Predicted ABV: 7.7%

Looking to do this in a 5gal batch

•1lb roasted barley (300)
•6oz chocolate malt (350)
•8oz crystal 60 (60)
•3lbs wheat LME (2)
•6lbs light LME (3)

Hop additions

•9% 2oz Northern Brewer (60 mins)
•12% 1oz Chinook (60 mins)
•12% 1oz Galena (15mins)

•White Labs WLP001 (California Ale) or Wyeast 1056 (American Ale) yeast

I feel I want to make it a more rich in the mouth feel. I've read that adding Oates can give it those characteristics, any insight on that? I thank you guys for all the time you've already put in to help me.

EDIT: I forgot to add another piece of information asked, I plan to try and keep it like an American style with clean characteristics

 

[Challenger440]

A couple more questions for you Taketwofl, do you plan on doing a full boil? That is where you start with say, 6 gallons of wort and boil down to your 5 gallon volume. Or do you plan on boiling 3-4 gallons and then topping off to 5 gallons? I ask because that will affect the hop utilization.

Other question, what calculator are you using for this recipe? It is overestimating your color and probably underestimating your IBUs unless you are doing a very small boil (hence first question).

As far as using oats goes, they are a great addition to stouts for mouthfeel. They give a great smoothness to the beer. Sometimes described as velvety. Now in your recipe here, you are using 3 lbs of wheat LME. Wheat LME would normally not be used in a stout recipe but using it should give you a softness in the mouthfeel. I think I wouldn't recommend using both oats and LME in your recipe. Not that it definitely wouldn't work, it might be nice, but it will help you to learn flavors and characteristics by not doubling up.

Most extracts will give a medium bodied beer. Adding half a pound of carapils/dextrine malt would help you out to give you a little more body in the finished beer. Alternatively, maybe use WLP008 as your yeast. It is a clean American yeast but less attenuative than WLP001 (that means it will end with a higher FG, which means it will feel fuller bodied).

 

[Challenger440]

I'm a fan of East Kent Goldings for stouts and typically don't do any flavor editions with hops. Here is your recipe with a couple of tweaks.

The color, OG, and predicted ABV changes are solely caused by running the recipe through Beersmith. And the IBUs before I changed them were 128. These discrepancies were why I asked about your recipe calculator.

O.G. 1.058
Color: 35 SRM
IBUs: 33
Predicted ABV: 5.6%


•1lb roasted barley (300)
•6oz chocolate malt (350)
•8oz crystal 60 (60)
•carapils/dextrine malt (2)
•3lbs wheat LME (2)
•6lbs light LME (3)

Hop additions
•5% 2oz East Kent Golding (60 mins) 33 IBU
or if you want a little hop character to the beer
•5% 1.5oz East Kent Golding (60 mins) 26 IBU
•5% 1oz East Kent Golding (10 mins) 6 IBU

Yeast
•White Labs WLP001 (California Ale) or White Labs WLP001 (East Coast Ale)

 

[Taketwofl]

A couple more questions for you Taketwofl, do you plan on doing a full boil? That is where you start with say, 6 gallons of wort and boil down to your 5 gallon volume. Or do you plan on boiling 3-4 gallons and then topping off to 5 gallons? I ask because that will affect the hop utilization.

Other question, what calculator are you using for this recipe? It is overestimating your color and probably underestimating your IBUs unless you are doing a very small boil (hence first question).

As far as using oats goes, they are a great addition to stouts for mouthfeel. They give a great smoothness to the beer. Sometimes described as velvety. Now in your recipe here, you are using 3 lbs of wheat LME. Wheat LME would normally not be used in a stout recipe but using it should give you a softness in the mouthfeel. I think I wouldn't recommend using both oats and LME in your recipe. Not that it definitely wouldn't work, it might be nice, but it will help you to learn flavors and characteristics by not doubling up.

Most extracts will give a medium bodied beer. Adding half a pound of carapils/dextrine malt would help you out to give you a little more body in the finished beer. Alternatively, maybe use WLP008 as your yeast. It is a clean American yeast but less attenuative than WLP001 (that means it will end with a higher FG, which means it will feel fuller bodied).

Challenger,
You are indeed a lifesaver with your knowledge base. I only have a 5gal pot as of now so I had planned to use a top up method not entirely sure if that will make me need to change up my hop implementation. What would you recommendation be on scrapping the Wheat LME for Oates, both, or just sticking with the LME? Also I had made a change to a Dark LME rather than light. I've attached a picture of what my BeerSmith 2 Layout looks like.

I was using a free little app on my phone. I now have acquired BeerSmith 2 and took this exact same recipe and input it there with much different results as you already have mentioned 33.0 SRM and about 71 IBUs. I've also made the change to your suggested yeast. (in the picture it reflects something else however I used the WLP008)

 

[Gerry_P]

Exactly what type of stout are you going for? Without rattling off the styles, your recipe conjures elements of several styles (of stout). The Crystal 120 as well as the OG sing of Imperial Stout. I personally wouldn't use cascade as any type of flavor addition. I think you should think about whether you want a more stout that feels english (pleasant esters, yeast character) or american (clean fermentation, no real yeast character).

Also for the sake of looking over the recipe, could you add the Lovibond rating for the steeping grains and the AA% for the hops?

Could be a lower-end Imperial, American, Foreign Extra...there's some overlap in the stout categories. He could use lager yeast and make it a tropical stout if he wants to step outside the box a little.
Wheat is used in stouts for body and head retention/creaminess. I normally use flaked barley for that (personal pref.), but I like the idea of using wheat.
Scotch ale yeast (I prefer the Wyeast...the White Labs behaves a little differently) ferments clean and is another option for a stout. Just throwing it out there in case his LHBS runs out of the other ones or something.

 

[Challenger440]

If you want to keep your SG in the 1.070-1.072 ballpark, I'd bump up the total IBUs to 50-60 by adjusting your 60 minute addition. That way the finished beer won't come across as so sweet.

For the Wheat vs Oats, thats really up to you. Like I said the wheat is atypical, but I think would give an interesting beer (in a good way). Using rolled oats would give you a tried and true velvety, silky, lusciousness.

If you were to switch out the Wheat LME to Dark LME and add rolled oats, I'd then say to switch back to WLP001 and drop the carapils (which I'd probably do now anyway since you have 6 lbs of Dark LME). The Dark LME wont ferment out as much as the Light LME or Wheat LME. Having 9 lbs of Dark LME should give you sufficient body by itself.

And you are certainly welcome! I've benefited from the help offered here over the years. I can sometimes give back as well.

 

[billl]

Not to a be a stick in the mud, but...... for a second brew, I'd stick with a tested recipe. You are just tossing ingredients together at this point with no frame of reference. That's really not a good way to learn what they contribute and how they interact.

 

[Taketwofl]

Not to a be a stick in the mud, but...... for a second brew, I'd stick with a tested recipe. You are just tossing ingredients together at this point with no frame of reference. That's really not a good way to learn what they contribute and how they interact.

Billl,

I honestly couldn't agree more. This isn't going to be my next brew by any means (though I want to do a Stout for my next). I'm just trying to slowly learn information and in due time after quite a few batches maybe attempt this. I am going to stick with a few kits and venture slowly into the realm of crafting my own. I just wanted to get some input on a good start which I could tweak down the road. I wouldn't expect to see me attempt this for a year or so. If anyone wants to take the idea and fix it up please let me know how it turns out!

 

[Taketwofl]

Challenger,

I think once I do take on this bad boy I might do the Wheat and Oats to see the outcome while if I do that I probably will switch it back to a light LME and keep the carapils.

 

[billl]

I didn't mean necessarily stick to kits for a year. I was thinking more along the lines of taking a known recipe (from where ever, but this site has a solid recipe section.) Brew it as is. Then change up an ingredient or 2 (or just the amounts of the same ingredients) and brew it again. If you do that, you'll quickly put together enough knowledge to start intentionally building recipes. eg I want this to have a little more coffee flavor and little less sweetness, so I'll XYZ.

 

[Taketwofl]

You are absolutely right and I cannot believe I didn't think of that, guess there's a reason I'm the rookie. I'll stick to kits for the next few to get the basics down without having to research the internet to figure out what "Wort" is. All joking aside that was an excellent suggestion and my ignorance in the brewing world made me look right past an easy solution to learn! Thank you very much and thank you to everyone who had helped me out. I'm by no means scrapping this bad boy but I will put it to rest for now until I feel comfortable in moving forward. For now "Stout" as it's known in BS2 will remain there until it's time to reawaken that beast. Thank you all so much.

 

[Gerry_P]

Gerry thanks for the advice. It seems I need to work with getting my IBUs up for sure. I'm not fan of super sweet stouts so I was trying to keep the chocolate on the low side with a hint of it so I'm hoping that will work.

With the color and hop comments. Would you suggest any different hops over the ones I've looked into as of now? What would be the most effective way of bringing my SRM to a more acceptable level of a stout without sacrificing too much that goes into it?
(I'm sorry for the novice questioning but I feel I learn a lot more with actual interaction as I have no LHBS in any distance reasonable where I'm currently at)

If I were using Galena hops, I might cut back on the roasted barley. That will lower your SRM, but it's going to be a very dark beer anyway so it's not like you're going to read the newspaper through it either way. Once you go over 40 SRM, it's like comparing the blackness of 2 different black holes. Or the Spinal Tap album cover for "Smell the Glove." It's like, how much more black could it be? And the answer is none...none more black.

There was a time when certain hops (citrusy ones, for example) would not be considered acceptable in a stout. However, nowadays people like to drink these things called "Black IPAs" (which I call India Oxymoron Ales), so tastes have changed and traditional style guidelines aren't taken as seriously any more. I like Northern Brewer in stouts so Chinook should go well here. I think you're going to have fairly high hop aroma for a stout, which is something you might not want. If it ends up being too much, call it a Black IPA. Your friends who aren't beer snobs won't know the difference.

The chocolate malt is just malt roasted to 350-ish L. It doesn't have any actual chocolate although it can add a chocolaty flavor...think unsweetened chocolate or coffee, not chocolate candy. You'll get more sweetness from the crystal than from the chocolate malt. I don't think you have to worry about your stout being too sweet.

 

[Gerry_P]

Not to a be a stick in the mud, but...... for a second brew, I'd stick with a tested recipe. You are just tossing ingredients together at this point with no frame of reference. That's really not a good way to learn what they contribute and how they interact.

He's ok with this one, nothing off-the-wall here. It's not like he's trying to reinvent the wheel, which is a mistake some new brewers make.

 

[Taketwofl]

If I were using Galena hops, I might cut back on the roasted barley. That will lower your SRM, but it's going to be a very dark beer anyway so it's not like you're going to read the newspaper through it either way. Once you go over 40 SRM, it's like comparing the blackness of 2 different black holes. Or the Spinal Tap album cover for "Smell the Glove." It's like, how much more black could it be? And the answer is none...none more black.

First off, on the Spinal Tap reference :rockin:
I love dark beers but what you're saying makes sense once it hits a certain limit it's not getting any darker.

There was a time when certain hops (citrusy ones, for example) would not be considered acceptable in a stout. However, nowadays people like to drink these things called "Black IPAs" (which I call India Oxymoron Ales), so tastes have changed and traditional style guidelines aren't taken as seriously any more.

This is hilarious but true at the same time. I love what little I've dabbled in brewing and I have a passion for beer that started way before this, I love the aromas, after flavors and everything that most people just don't think about when they drink a good pint, so the idea behind traditional beer is still very relevant to me I'd say.

 

[Gerry_P]

Challenger, yes. I honestly was mixing and matching from recipes that seemed to have decent reviews from other brewers.

I do the same thing. I also use brewing books like "Brewing Classic Styles" as a starting point, or clone recipes of commercially-produced beers that I like.

 

[Gerry_P]

I just noticed that your roasted barley SRM is 300. That's correct for Breiss, but if you use UK roasted barley you're looking at 550. That would account for the SRM differences, and according to what I just read Beersmith uses 350 as the default.

 

[Gerry_P]

In the interest of over-complicating this further, I ran the recipe in post #8 through my calculator of choice, Brewer's Friend. I used American grains and tinkered with the hops a little. You could save a buck or two by buying the oz. of Northern Brewer and an ounce of one of the other two. I'd be comfortable brewing this as-is. I didn't add dextrine or anything because it's optional, but it won't hurt if used judiciously. This assumes 1 gal/hr. boil-off rate and 30% eff. for the steeping grains, which are ballpark estimates.

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Omni-stout
Brew Method: Extract

Style Name: Foreign Extra Stout
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 6 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.066
Efficiency: 30% (steeping grains only)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.079
Final Gravity: 1.020
ABV (standard): 7.78%
IBU (tinseth): 42.5
SRM (morey): 34.48

FERMENTABLES:
6 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Light (55.8%)
3 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Wheat (27.9%)

STEEPING GRAINS:
1 lb - American - Roasted Barley (9.3%)
6 oz - American - Chocolate (3.5%)
6 oz - American - Caramel / Crystal 60L (3.5%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Northern Brewer, Type: Pellet, AA: 9, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 29.67
0.5 oz - Chinook, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Boil for 20 min, IBU: 11.98
0.5 oz - Galena, Type: Pellet, AA: 12, Use: Boil for 1 min, IBU: 0.85

YEAST:
Wyeast - American Ale 1056
Starter: No
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 75%
Flocculation: Med-Low
Optimum Temp: 60 - 72 F
Fermentation Temp: 65 F


Generated by Brewer's Friend - http://www.brewersfriend.com/
Date: 2017-01-02 19:58 UTC
Recipe Last Updated: 2017-01-02 19:58 UTC

 

[Gerry_P]

And....just to take up more space, compare your recipe to the recipe I used for a foreign export stout I brewed a couple years ago. I made the recipe up (some of it anyway), it turned out great, and it was my 2nd all-grain batch. (I did extract off and on for about 20 years lol.) I think I might have changed up the grain bill slightly by adding some more crystal than I had originally used, but I'm rambling now...

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Export stout

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Foreign Extra Stout
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 5 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 6 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.063
Efficiency: 74% (brew house)


STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.075
Final Gravity: 1.019
ABV (alternate): 7.78%
IBU (tinseth): 37.36
SRM (morey): 46.65

FERMENTABLES:
11 lb - United Kingdom - Maris Otter Pale (80%)
12 oz - United Kingdom - Roasted Barley (5.5%)
8 oz - United Kingdom - Chocolate (3.6%)
12 oz - American - Caramel / Crystal 40L (5.5%)
12 oz - American - Caramel / Crystal 80L (5.5%)

HOPS:
2 oz - East Kent Goldings, Type: Pellet, AA: 5.5, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 37.36

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 152 F, Time: 90 min
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
0.5 tsp - Irish moss, Time: 15 min, Type: Fining, Use: Boil

YEAST:
Wyeast - Irish Ale 1084
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 73%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Temp: 62 - 72 F
Fermentation Temp: 68 F

 

[Taketwofl]

Gerry,

You're making this really difficult not to just suck it up and "go for it" in terms of trial and error. All the help I've received from you guys thus far makes me want to try this and alter it from there, adding this and that as needed. Not to play devils advocate on myself but is that a decent option? Obviously, going from a well known recipe to one we together have crafted, we won't exactly know how to the outcome is but I think we can perfect it and make it something awesome. Billl made sense and I do have enough open buckets to not only practice with a well known one but maybe toy around with my own blend to see how it comes out. The idea might have not gone asleep just yet

EDIT: On the note of "going for it" if I did I think I would roll with that most recent rendition you've posted from the original "post #8" it looks pretty solid to me and it still holds the values that I wanted to go with originally. Not that it would be my next in line but for sure going to save that formula in BS2 and when I do make it I'll let you know how it turned out!

 

[Gerry_P]

Ha you should absolutely suck it up and go for it. What's the worst that could happen...."Oh no, my stout is a little too hoppy!" or "Damn it all to hell, the mouthfeel is a tad bit thin." Worry about sanitation and fermentation temps, those are the things that will screw up your beer if they're not tended to properly and they aren't rocket science either.

Correction: As a staunch proponent of the Papazian philosophy of brewing, I should replace the word "worry" with "pay close attention to".