Second batch - watery beer

[chato]

I just brewed my second batch - first all grain. Its a Zombie Dust clone attempt and it came out good, but the beer has very little body. Seems like water with some malt flavoring and lots of hops. I'm trying to figure out where I went wrong. Here's the recipe:

Malts
12 lbs 2-Row
1 lb Light Munich Malt (10L)
8 oz. Crystal 60 L
8 oz. Carafoam
8 oz. Melanoidin Malt
Hops (Pellets)
1 oz. Citra 60 minutes
1/2 oz. Citra 30 minutes
1/2 oz. Citra 20 minutes
1 oz. Citra at flameout
1.5 tsp gypsum and 1 tsp calcium chloride added to strike water
1/2 whirlfloc and 1/2 tsp yeast nutrient added at 15 min left in boil

Yeast: Wyeast 1203 - Burton Ale (seasonal) in 1.6L starter on stir plate for 24 hours - pitched the whole starter (no decant)

Dry-Hop:
1 oz Citra into primary 2 days before racking
2 oz Citra into secondary 2 days before bottling

Modified BIAB in brew kettle - 1.28 qt/lb - Mashed base and specialty grains for 1 hour at 152 degrees.
Dunk sparged into 2nd kettle at 161 degrees for 20 minutes (I kept adding heat trying to raise it to 168 but it wouldn't go up)

75 min boil
OG: 1.062
FG: 1.012

Fermented at 64-68º degrees. 14 days primary, 9 days secondary

Bottled for 2 weeks now.

The beer is ok, but just seems thin and weak. I first noticed the thinness before fermenting when I tasted the wort pulled for the OG hydrometer reading. It also doesn't seem to have the kick that a ~6.3% ABV beer would have, so not sure if the calculated ABV is accurate.

So, what might be the cause of this? Could this be caused by the specialty malts being old or not crushed properly? How to prevent this in the next batch, which will be an all-grain robust porter?

 

[RM-MN]

The first thing to try on this batch is to leave it in the bottles for another 2 weeks and see if it changes. Most beers change a lot in that amount of time.

Your robust porter will need even more time to get to its best. Expect this one to pull together in 3 to 4 months. Before that it will seem pretty thin too.

 

[TungstenBeer]

Are your thermometers (and while we're at it, hydrometers/refractometers too) properly calibrated? This sounds like a typical lower than target mash temp issue.


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[chato]

I tested the thermometer in boiling water and it reads ~212, so that seems to be OK. The hydrometer I tested in tap water and it reads 1.000, so that should be OK too, right?

I was a little concerned about the thermometer being accurate. When mashing, the thermometer stayed a 152 for an hour. I thought it would drop at least a couple of degrees. The mash was done by heating and mashing-in out in a cold garage, then bringing the kettle into the kitchen stove, no blankets or anything, and stirring every 15 minutes. The thermometer stayed at 152 the whole time. Then with the dunk sparge, I dropped the bag into 177 water and it dropped the temp to 160-161, so we turned on the stove and applied medium (gas) heat for about 10 minutes. The thermometer never budged. We stirred and tried to heat it up serveral times and it wouldn't budge.

 

[billl]

A kettle holding exactly 152 for an hour is suspicious. Even with insulation, the temp will drop slightly.

Also, applying heat to a kettle certainly will raise the temp, so if the thermometer wasn't moving, you need a new thermometer.

 

[Zoidberg]

Agreed if it never changed off exactly 152, then it probably isn't accurate

 

[bobtheUKbrewer2]

how much water did you use and what was final volume in your fermenter?

 

[losMythos]

I think I had this same issue but I chalked it up to topping off to achieve 5 gal. I was making the mistake of measuring my OG before topping off which was stupid as the gravity changed with the water addition. I felt my beers were "thin" in mouth feel. I just brewed a Pale ale and didn't top off and I can taste and feel the difference already even without carbonation. Less of a great beer is better than more of a good beer in my opinion.

 

[chato]

bobtheUKbrewer2 - I mashed with ~ 4.6 gallons, then dunk sparged the grain bag into ~3.6 gallons. I ended up with just over 5 gallons in the fermenter.

This brings up another question - so I've got my 5.1 or so gallons in the fermenter, then I added 1.6 liters of yeast starter. That's close to 1/2 gallon more liquid into the fermenter that I assume has a low gravity since it started around 1.040 and fermented for 24 hours. Could that also add to the watery feel of the beer? Is it better to plan further out and cold crash/decant the yeast starter so you don't add a bunch of low gravity wort? I had problems with my first batch starter when I tried to do that so I decided to pitch the whole thing.

 

[billl]

Your starter is fine. 1.6 liters of 40 point wort would only lower your batch OG by 2 points.

Also, a 6% beer shouldn't have a "kick" if it's well made.

You got about 80% apparent attenuation from a yeast that they rate at 71-74%, so you had a pretty fermentable wort. If your temps are right, then you essentially mashed for an hour and 20 minutes. That could certainly up the fermentability. If your temps were wrong on the low end, that could certainly account for it as well.

 

[losMythos]

bobtheUKbrewer2 - I mashed with ~ 4.6 gallons, then dunk sparged the grain bag into ~3.6 gallons. I ended up with just over 5 gallons in the fermenter.

This brings up another question - so I've got my 5.1 or so gallons in the fermenter, then I added 1.6 liters of yeast starter. That's close to 1/2 gallon more liquid into the fermenter that I assume has a low gravity since it started around 1.040 and fermented for 24 hours. Could that also add to the watery feel of the beer? Is it better to plan further out and cold crash/decant the yeast starter so you don't add a bunch of low gravity wort? I had problems with my first batch starter when I tried to do that so I decided to pitch the whole thing.

Yeah that is another issue I have asked myself .I just feel any liquid whether it's starter wort or straight water for topping off is not going to ruin your beer but it isn't helping as their isn't any flavor or Fermentable sugars in either(maybe a bit of yeasty flavor in the starter). I must admit that I never plan ahead enough to make a starter and cold crash it long enough to decant so I have been pitching the whole thing. I'm hoping by just skipping the topping off to 5 gal It might get me more of that malt backbone and hop balance I want with my IPA's.

 

[chato]

Your starter is fine. 1.6 liters of 40 point wort would only lower your batch OG by 2 points.

I was thinking the starter gravity would be more like around 1.010 or less since it had been fermenting, although since it also contains 3-4% ABV in the starter, you're probably right.

Also, a 6% beer shouldn't have a "kick" if it's well made.

I guess I'm just getting used to drinking 9% IIPAs and such, because a 12 oz bottle of this beer didn't hit my head any more than a Coors might.

You got about 80% apparent attenuation from a yeast that they rate at 71-74%, so you had a pretty fermentable wort.

I was actually pretty surprised at the attenuation. Maybe my OG reading was wrong. That might explain both the lower perceived ABV and the watery beer.

I'd surely be annoyed if both my thermometer and hydrometer are crap. I just bought them.

 

[billl]

"I was actually pretty surprised at the attenuation. Maybe my OG reading was wrong. That might explain both the lower perceived ABV and the watery beer. "

Your gravity readings were probably right. You can get much higher attentuation with AG beers if you mash low or long. I prefer my IPA's on the dry side, but your tastes may vary.

"I was thinking the starter gravity would be more like around 1.010 or less since it had been fermenting, although since it also contains 3-4% ABV in the starter, you're probably right."

Well, the FG of the starter would certainly be lower, but you need to look at the OG of the starter to determine its impact on the batch

 

[tootal]

The hydrometer should be checked with distilled water. Check the thermometer in ice water, obviously it should be 32. They can be off at one end or the other.

Try raising your mash temps. 152 still has beta amylase working which will thin it out, yet with higher alcohol. Try 158 for an hour next time. Test with iodine for conversion. If there's no color change you,re good, if so then go another 30 minutes and test again. I'll bet you're good after an hour.

 

[motleybrew]

The hydrometer should be checked with distilled water. Check the thermometer in ice water, obviously it should be 32.

Came here to say this.

Boil temps vary based on altitude and other things. Freezing doesn't. You calibrate more accurately with a ice water slushy

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[chato]

The first thing to try on this batch is to leave it in the bottles for another 2 weeks and see if it changes. Most beers change a lot in that amount of time.

Its been another couple of weeks and it does seem to have improved with longer conditioning. Still slightly watery, but much improved. Actually is a pretty darn good beer for a first AG attempt.

 

[Ebenezer]

I agree with checking the thermometer - I used a glass thermometer for my first year of home brewing, and finally figured out that my beers were over attenuated because the thermometer was 8 to 10 degrees low. I figured it out after comparing it with a digital thermometer we had to check roasts and the like. Now the fact that your thermometer did show 212F at boiling does suggest accuracy, but as others have said, there’s always some lowering of temperature if you’re mashing an hour or more, so that seems suspicious.

If you think a beer is too thin, you can boil some maltodextrin along with whatever you prime with, to add some more body. Two ounces adds about .01 to the FG for a five gallon batch. I finally figured that out, and it is a great help to beers that need a bit more substance (or a lot more).