Second attempt on Cyser...

[bolepa]

Hi everyone! I need you advice on making cyser... This is second attempt. I am not saying that my first cyser was bad - actually it was pretty good but not great. First time I used store bought 100% apple juice only, aged it for 6 month but the mead didn't have an "apple" flavor...
This time I am planning (for first fermentation) to use - again - 100% apple juice but for second fermentation I want to add 10-12 pound of fresh Granny Smith apples ( for 4 gallons). Also, I'll add 3(!) packets of 71B yeast. I will be adding three packets because the yeast expired in June. Although I keep all my easts in the fridge - I am not willing to risk it. I am pretty sure the still OK.
Now, what you say? Any advices?
Thanks!

 

[Maylar]

I've heard of people doing that with sliced apples, but I think the cider folks would balk at it.

A few things to consider:

• You have apple orchards in your area, and I would find a local cider mill rather than store bought apple juice. Be aware of preservatives (you want NONE).
• Adjust the cider content as far as sugar ratio goes. My cysers typically split 50/50 with honey, with 1.050 SG each. That gives about 13% ABV at the end. You could add more apple and less honey.
• Back sweeten with whichever element needs more presence. I use frozen apple juice concentrate for that (after stabilizing, of course).

Also, I do NOT recommend 71B for anything with apples. It reduces the natural malic acid and leaves the result bland and lifeless.

 

[bolepa]

Thank you, Maylar!

I would find a local cider mill rather than store bought apple juice. Be aware of preservatives (you want NONE).

That's a problem: I cannot find a local sider mill around in my area.... Secondly, this will be way too expensive for me considering honey coast... Store bough apple juice is not the best product for mead but at least no preservatives... At least that's what label says...

I do NOT recommend 71B for anything with apples

Then what would you recommend? I have D47, 1116 & 1118 on hands right now.... Would any of those work better with apples?
Thank you again!

 

[Maylar]

Of those - D47. But you MUST keep the temperature below 65F else it gives off fusel alcohols.

 

[bernardsmith]

bolepa, Hi. Could you perhaps provide your recipe? How much juice did you use per gallon of cyser, what varietal of honey did you use and how many pounds of that honey? It could be that the amount of honey you used and the strength of its flavor completely swamped the apple flavors... What I would try to find is unfiltered apple juice but be sure it has no preservatives (no sorbates, not sulfates). For cyser, I might look for wildflower honey or clover honey. Possibly orange blossom honey.
The problem of a lack of apple flavor may be caused by a) too little malic acidity. Most sweet apple juice is low in acid (whereas most hard cider tends to include apples high in acidity (the dominant acid in apples is malic); and b) a lack of sweetness in the cyser that tends to force the fruit flavors to the back. Stabilizing your cyser and then back sweetening tends to bring fruit flavors forward. But since you have not offered your recipe or protocol above, it is not easy to diagnose the source of the problem and so offer a simple solution.

One pound of honey dissolved in water increases the gravity of water (1.000) to 1.035 when the total volume is 1 US gallon. Two pounds of honey to make the same volume, increases the gravity by 70 points (1.070). Apple juice is likely to have a gravity of about 1.045 - 1.050 per gallon, so to make a cyser at about 1.090 - 1.100, I would add about 1.5 lbs of honey to the apple juice for every gallon of cyser. At 1.090 - 1.100 your cyser will have a potential ABV of 12-13%.
I would add pectic enzymes to break down the pectins in the apple juice, and I would add yeast nutrient to be sure that the yeast have sufficient nitrogen. I would also check to see if tannin might improve the flavor along with some malic acid (Acid blend is not a good choice: you want to emphasize the acids found in apples, not the acids in grapes or citrus fruit).

 

[bolepa]

But you MUST keep the temperature below 65F else it gives off fusel alcohols.

Unfortunately this is not possible: depending on whether the temp can go up to 75 in my garage and up to 70 inside the house.... and there si no way I can lower it... Do you think 1118 or 1116 would work better ? BTW, D47 can tolerate the temp in range of 50-86 °F... Weird...

 

[bernardsmith]

Unfortunately this is not possible: depending on whether the temp can go up to 75 in my garage and up to 70 inside the house.... and there si no way I can lower it... Do you think 1118 or 1116 would work better ? BTW, D47 can tolerate the temp in range of 50-86 °F... Weird...

Always best to select the best yeast for the conditions in which you are making your wine or mead. That said, I must disagree with Maylar. In My opinion (and in the opinion of Claude Jolicoeur - a world recognized cider maker), 71B is a good choice for making hard cider, not least because it has a special affinity for malic acid and he writes that he also uses EC 1118)..

 

[bolepa]

Thank you, bernardsmith!
I didn't provide the recipe because I wasn't sure it was necessary... Here it is:
My fermenter is 4.2 gallons.
Approximately 2.0 - 2.5 pound of honey per gallon or until SG is 1.100 - I prefer to bring ABV to 13% or at least 12%. I use Costco honey. I know, I know - this honey is far from even decent honey but at least I can afford it. Now days the price for honey is skyrocketing... For same reason I use store bought apple juice - not the most expensive one but without anything added to it with exception of ascorbic acid and filtered water. I wish I could afford good, unfiltered apple juice but....
No water added - just juice.
So, you are suggesting to add pectic enzymes at the beginning of first fermentation? Usually, I add PE to thawed fruits/berries 24 hours prior I add fruits/berries for second fermentation.
Regarding to the tannin: usually, when I mixing honey with juice/water I add 7 packets of black tea stiped in 500 ml of hot water. Do you think this is not enough and I should add tannin in addition? If so - how much?
Please let me know if you need more detail on the recipe. Thank you!

 

[bolepa]

71B is a good choice for making hard cider, not least because it has a to make cyser special affinity for malic acid and he writes that he also uses EC 1118)

I have 3 packets of 71B with expiration date in June of this year so I would like to use them all especially they work well to make cyser.
Thanks!

 

[bernardsmith]

A couple of quick thoughts.
1. If you are having a problem with a batch, it is always useful to include the recipe (ingredients AND method) as these together help more seasoned wine makers offer possible solutions as the ingredients and method can help us see issues .
2. If water was added to the juice by the manufacturer, that suggests that the juice itself was made from concentrate that the mfg reconstituted. That may not be a problem... but if you have no access to a local orchard that presses apples for juice, what you find may be fine. One thing you MAY experiment with is freezing the apple juice and then turning the containers upside down and collecting the juice as it slowly thaws. That way you can collect all the flavor and the sugars while concentrating the liquid.So, for every gallon you freeze, you might collect a half gallon. That will certainly increase the flavor: volume ratio. But it will leave you with less total volume...
3. You may want to check your hydrometer. Two and a half pounds of honey dissolved in WATER to make ONE US gallon, will itself result in a solution of 1.087. Using apple juice, in place of water should provide you with a gravity of closer to 1.140 and that has a potential ABV of more than 18%. All other things being equal - and assuming your yeast CAN ferment in that kin of environment - I would expect the alcohol burn would block most flavors from the honey and the apple juice...
4. I never use tea as my source of tannin, so I have no good sense of how many bags of black tea would give you the tannin content for the volume of cyser you are making. If you are using a well-tested recipe (always better published in book form than spouted on Youtube - by self-professed "experts" who rarely , if ever test their products in competition (or test their products through sales as commercial wine makers) then again, no argument from me. But tannin powder is not expensive, an is easily available through each and every local home brew store. The type I use is made from chestnuts and for a white wine such as a cyser, it suggests I add 1/4 teaspoon to every gallon. In other words, this product gives me great consistency and repeatability in a way that boiling tea bags may not.

 

[Maylar]

In My opinion (and in the opinion of Claude Jolicoeur - a world recognized cider maker), 71B is a good choice for making hard cider, not least because it has a special affinity for malic acid

He will use 71B if the TA (acid level) of his must is north of 0.7 gm/L, which is rare. Why use a yeast that removes acid only to add it back at the end? He uses EC-1118 at 50°F to control the ferment speed.

 

[Maylar]

Do you think 1118 or 1116 would work better ? BTW, D47 can tolerate the temp in range of 50-86 °F... Weird...

The warning about D47 comes from Ryan Carlson at GotMead. I trust his advice. V1116 produces floral esters that some people find objectionable. Good for some wines but not really for a mead or cyser. 1118 is a good neutral yeast but it really needs to be slowed down. Temperature control is pretty much mandatory.

 

[bernardsmith]

He will use 71B if the TA (acid level) of his must is north of 0.7 gm/L, which is rare. Why use a yeast that removes acid only to add it back at the end? He uses EC-1118 at 50°F to control the ferment speed.

I come from the UK where they know how to make great cider and many cider makers in the UK use 71B precisely to transform malic in cider apples to lactic acid - a smoother , less harsh acid which incredibly transforms cider within about 12 months. Many brewers (sic) over here seem to prefer Nottingham yeast which IMO, is so neutral that it adds nothing to the flavors and when you use juice made from table apples (dessert apples) what you get is the bland "cider" folk this side of the pond appear to prefer. But I guess if people call Bud beer, that kinda makes sense

 

[Maylar]

cider makers in the UK use 71B precisely to transform malic in cider apples to lactic acid

Please, STOP saying that. It is NOT true. The conversion of malic acid to lactic acid is called malolactic fermentation and is carried out by specific bacteria. NO YEAST can do that. 71B supports MLF, but does NOT do it. 71B will do maloethanolic fermentation: conversion to ethanol and CO2.

 

[bernardsmith]

Please, STOP saying that. It is NOT true. The conversion of malic acid to lactic acid is called malolactic fermentation and is carried out by specific bacteria. NO YEAST can do that. 71B supports MLF, but does NOT do it. 71B will do maloethanolic fermentation: conversion to ethanol and CO2.

I stand corrected. It's malo-ethanolic fermentation that 71B undertakes and not malo-lactic.
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/docs/products/tds/TDS_LALVIN_71B_ENG_DIGITAL.pdf

 

[Maylar]

It does, however, support MLF very well. You'll see "Supports MLF " as a yes/no parameter in wine yeast spec sheets. It seems that some are better than others at that and 71B is a big yes.

 

[bernardsmith]

yeah.. But sidebar issue, according to a recent WineMaker (Vol 27, 6 page 14)Mag response from the Wine Wizard (Alison Crowe) , some yeasts are so demanding of nutrients that they inhibit MLF (malo-lactic fermentation) and one yeast that is cited is Cote des Blancs, which apparently depletes the wine of amino acids, nutrients and vitamins that the MLF bacteria require.