Sanitizing glassware

[KillahBeast]

Hello all,

I am new to fermentation, I am trying to ferment chinese yellow rice wine. I have this glassware which I need to sanitize. Do using regular hand sanitizer, (spraying ones) work as the chemical mentioned here is not found near my area. Thank you

 

[NiwotBrew]

Hello all,

I am new to fermentation, I am trying to ferment chinese yellow rice wine. I have this glassware which I need to sanitize. Do using regular hand sanitizer, (spraying ones) work as the chemical mentioned here is not found near my area. Thank you

Better to sanitize with weak bleach solution, the rinse thoroughly.

 

[KillahBeast]

Thank you for reply NiwotBrew, will try this.

 

[glick]

I would NOT use hand sanitizer to sanitize your fermenter! As suggested above, I would use a weak bleach solution and thoroughly rinse.

 

[NSMikeD]

any food grade no rinse sanitizer will do. Star San is popular with the home brewing folks, but there are a number of acid based no rinse sanitizers that are basically the same thing.

I have used Nu-Foam tablets (dissolve in water in a spray bottle) that are available here in food industry supply outlets and is bar supply stores.

Good chance if you have access to a restaurant supply place, they will carry Nu-Foam or an equivalent product. Restaurants prefer acid no rinse to bleach for a number or reasons to sanitize their food prep surfaces

 

[MaxStout]

They have it on Amazon, too.

 

[SanPancho]

Hello all,

I am new to fermentation, I am trying to ferment chinese yellow rice wine. I have this glassware which I need to sanitize. Do using regular hand sanitizer, (spraying ones) work as the chemical mentioned here is not found near my area. Thank you

bleach is not a very good sanitizer. its best for making things white.

if you want a good sanitizer you can use bleach but you need to mix it with an acid, and vinegar works very well.

the recipe is very simple.
1liter of water.
4ml bleach (basic, no scents/perfumes/colors)
4ml of distilled/white vinegar

this is a rinse-free solution. just keep your glass wet for 60 seconds, then let it drip and dry.

 

[Miraculix]

Chinese Rice wine is not beer. Cleaning the fermenter with soapy water and a sponge plus a good rinse afterwards with clean water will completely suffice.

 

[mac_1103]

bleach is not a very good sanitizer.

Bleach is an excellent sanitizer if used correctly. It was always our go-to in the BSL-3 lab.

 

[SanPancho]

Bleach is an excellent sanitizer if used correctly. It was always our go-to in the BSL-3 lab.

take it up with the chemist from 5star chems, as well as the EPA who state that for no-rinse sanitizing they advise chlorine bleach with vinegar. not chlorine bleach on its own.

i dont have the capacity to get into a biochem argument with you on the specific differences and actions happening. but if you wanna google hunt the interview it was stated (as best i can recall) that bleach is great for whitening, and consumer bleach is geared towards that in its formulation. (the chemist guy worked for clorox before he went to 5star chems) but the pH they deliver it at isnt so good for killing germs. hence the vinegar addition. that's the best i can recall of what he said.

i would also point out that in any of the food facilities i've been in (fruit/veggie packing houses, sausage factory, tortilla factory, cidery/winery/brewery) i have never seen bleach used as a sanitizer. i have specifically been instructed by many health inspectors (bar, restaurants, breweries) enough times to remember that they do not approve of it for use as a sanitizer.

however, oddly enough, the low temp dishwashing sanitizer in the big yellow bucket in most restaurants says sodium hypochlorite as an ingredient... which is bleach. but its not the sole ingredient.

that's as much as i can add.

 

[mac_1103]

Yeah, right. Our sanitation in the high containment labs I worked in was just crap.

The chemist from 5star is trying to sell you 5star products. I use starsan all the time, but freshly diluted 0.5% sodium hypochlorite will kill anything starsan kills and quite a few things that starsan won't kill. If you aren't going to make it fresh then you have to acidify it to stabilize it for longer storage (hence adding vingear). I would not consider bleach to be suitable as a no-rinse sanitizer for anything that's going to come into contact with food, but nobody said it was. And the OP apparently can't get starsan where he liives.

 

[SanPancho]

Yeah, right. Our sanitation in the high containment labs I worked in was just crap.

c'mon, dont be mad bro. just talk it out, work out the debate with the chemist. our state and local health inspectors. cdc. epa, i think.....

The chemist from 5star is trying to sell you 5star products. I use starsan all the time, but freshly diluted 0.5% sodium hypochlorite will kill anything starsan kills and quite a few things that starsan won't kill. If you aren't going to make it fresh then you have to acidify it to stabilize it for longer storage (hence adding vingear).

well if you actually listened to or read the interview the guy actually says that bleach and vinegar is fine for no-rinse santizer. he specifically was NOT trying to get folks to buy star san vs using his bleach/vinegar solution. so there's that.....

there's also the issue of the pH of the final solution, which you've not bothered to counterargue or refute with evidence. (but to be honest, as a non-chemist i wouldnt be able to "know" either of you were right/wrong anyways...)

I would not consider bleach to be suitable as a no-rinse sanitizer for anything that's going to come into contact with food, but nobody said it was. And the OP apparently can't get starsan where he liives.

perhaps you should review posts 2 and 4.

pretty sloppy for someone who works in such a dangerous lab......

 

[day_trippr]

Leaving aside the notion of "no rinse" the CDC and pretty much every other government agency that deals with sanitation in the USA still recommend 600-800 sodium hypochlorite solutions for sanitation. A whole lot of articles and regulations would have to be rewritten if that was no longer a viable method...

Cheers!

 

[SanPancho]

Leaving aside the notion of "no rinse"

chlorine gas fumigation?
send it into space?
set it on fire?
rub dioxin all over it?
bombard it with radiation?
dust it with fentanyl?
melt the glass and recycle it into glassware again?

the CDC and pretty much every other government agency that deals with sanitation in the USA still recommend 600-800 sodium hypochlorite solutions for sanitation. A whole lot of articles and regulations would have to be rewritten if that was no longer a viable method...

Cheers!

this logic makes no sense. why would it be "rewritten" if its using the same ingredient? the "sodium hypochlorite" in the 600-800ppm recommendation is the SAME thing as bleach, which is the same ingredient you can mix with vinegar. its an ingredient in a mix of ingredients that make up many sanitizers.

but since you're trying to refute the notion that bleach+vinegar is more effective, lets get the reasoning. if bleach is THE recommended sanitizer as you note, why in 20+ years of food service and food production facilities have i never seen/heard a health inspector allow bleach? why are we specifically told NOT to use it and to use actual food contact sanitizer products instead?

i wont claim to know the answer, i'm not a chemist. but i will tell you that the *approved* food contact sanitizers have a familiar ingredient in them- sodium hypochlorite, aka bleach. but its not the only ingredient. the mixing of the bleach with other ingredients is done for a reason.

the chemist from clorox says it was to lower the pH and make it a more effective sanitizer.

found the podcast. March 29, 2007 - Sanitizing with Bleach and Star San Charlie Talley from Five Star Chemicals tells us best practices in using household bleach and Star San in sanitizing equipment.

 

[day_trippr]

since you're trying to refute the notion that bleach+vinegar is more effective

Show me where I made any statement to that effect.
Don't make up **** to support whatever point you think you're making here...

Cheers!

 

[NSMikeD]

but since you're trying to refute the notion that bleach+vinegar is more effective, lets get the reasoning. if bleach is THE recommended sanitizer as you note, why in 20+ years of food service and food production facilities have i never seen/heard a health inspector allow bleach? why are we specifically told NOT to use it and to use actual food contact sanitizer products instead?

Having been food service certified in both Nassau and Suffolk DOH I confirm that both will allow a diluted bleach solution to clean and sanitize food prep surfaces. I assume we took the same classes and dealt with the same inspectors. I do think the no rinse products have become the option of choice but never had an inspector question diluted bleach.

 

[SanPancho]

Show me where I made any statement to that effect.
Don't make up **** to support whatever point you think you're making here...

Cheers

then by all means, please explain what the point is of your statement.

you clearly seem to be implying that if "X" happened/was true/existed then the govt would have "rewritten" their guidelines. so what exactly is the "X" that you are referring to here?

 

[NSMikeD]

then by all means, please explain what the point is of your statement.

you clearly seem to be implying that if "X" happened/was true/existed then the govt would have "rewritten" their guidelines. so what exactly is the "X" that you are referring to here?

he refuted your claim that bleach is not a very good sanitizer. you turned that into a straw man claiming that he said bleach + vinegar is not a more effective sanitizer. he didn't say that. you said he said that.


PS. He's a Bruins fan, it's killing me to back him up.

 

[SanPancho]

Having been food service certified in both Nassau and Suffolk DOH I confirm that both will allow a diluted bleach solution to clean and sanitize food prep surfaces. I assume we took the same classes and dealt with the same inspectors. I do think the no rinse products have become the option of choice but never had an inspector question diluted bleach.

yes, we clearly had different experiences. no facility out here (sf bay area, 3 counties) ever got the ok to use bleach on any food contact surface. that's local inspectors, who do bars/restaurants/delis/markets/etc as well as the two state inspectors i dealt with who handled production facilities (both were breweries). the other facilities i mentioned (sausage and tortilla factories) are not places i worked but did some small consulting-type gigs for and they used food service sanitizers. and i couldnt tell you that it came from a health inspector, but our place in baja also uses a sanitizer product and not just regular bleach. (for whatever that's worth)

at the end of the day, its just debating around the actual issue of contention here. the chemist guy says vinegar makes the bleach solution more effective as sanitizer. that's what i referred to, that's what started this whole debate. despite all the arguing back and forth, no one has disproved it. nor has anyone stated it was not food safe, or that is wasn't a "no rinse" sanitizer.

last time i'll say it, i'm not a chemist. couldnt debate the science of why vinegar makes it better other than just repeating what the guy said (pH change makes it more effective).

unless someone claims/proves otherwise, this combo (bleach+vinegar) is presented as the most effective, food safe, no-rinse, "off the shelf" sanitizer available to the OP.

he refuted your claim that bleach is not a very good sanitizer. you turned that into a straw man claiming that he said bleach + vinegar is not a more effective sanitizer. he didn't say that. you said he said that.


PS. He's a Bruins fan, it's killing me to back him up.

ah, ok. you got me. what i should have said (and what i honestly was implying) was that bleach as not "as good" a sanitizer as the vinegar+bleach combo. i stated that a few times talking about the combo/pH change/etc, which i thought made it clear what point i was making, but yes, in terms of technicalities, i should have said not as good as opposed to not good.

 

[NSMikeD]

unless someone claims/proves otherwise, this combo (bleach+vinegar) is presented as the most effective, food safe, no-rinse, "off the shelf" sanitizer available to the OP.

I think we already mentioned Nu Foam is readily available. May not be on a supermarket shelf but it's available online and in food and bar supply shops. It's also more convenient since its in tablet form, just add water.

 

[MaxStout]

I think we already mentioned Nu Foam is readily available. May not be on a supermarket shelf but it's available online and in food and bar supply shops. It's also more convenient since its in tablet form, just add water.

I might have to order some NuFoam. Currently, I use iodophor mixed to its disinfectant strength, around 100ppm. This concentration, of course, requires a rinse, but I feel more confident serving guests with glassware treated with that, than with StarSan.

https://ibc.utah.edu/_resources/documents/fact-sheets-and-sops/chemical-disinfectants_fact-sheet.pdf

 

[SEndorf]

I might have to order some NuFoam. Currently, I use iodophor mixed to its disinfectant strength, around 100ppm. This concentration, of course, requires a rinse, but I feel more confident serving guests with glassware treated with that, than with StarSan.

Can you elaborate Max? Where does StarSan fit in the data sheet. Since the dawn of time I've cleaned the dried residue off my glassware, put it in the StarSan bucket for at least 10 minutes, give them a good rolling shake, and hang upside down.

 

[SanPancho]

I think we already mentioned Nu Foam is readily available. May not be on a supermarket shelf but it's available online and in food and bar supply shops. It's also more convenient since its in tablet form, just add water.

again. you got me twice. what i should have said is "DIY/off-the-shelf" as i thought i was implying its something most folks already have at home, vinegar+bleach.

and yes, like @MaxStout i also use iodine, so that's an option. although since OP refers to glassware in my mind that means no-rinse, and there'll be some math involved to figure out the no-rinse concentration if he finds iodine to use. i feel like i've seen it in the pharmacy still sodl for first aid/topical use, so that implies its also food safe?

i dont go as high as 100ppm though. the iodophor sheet says 25ppm for what is not a no-rinse. i use that for brett/lacto stuff. then rinse as feel my water is plenty clean. but otherwise the normal 12.5ppm no-rinse concentration seems to work fine, and it doesnt foam up like crazy the way star san does.

 

[NSMikeD]

I have to chime in again, I thought something was wrong with mixing bleach and vinegar - yup. PLEASE DO NOT MIX BLEACH AND VINEGAR. While doing so will make it a stronger disinfectant, doing so WILL RELEASE CHLORINE GAS.


Even small amounts of chlorine gas can be dangerous. and the small increase in efficiency does not outweigh the health risks.

https://doh.wa.gov/community-and-environment/contaminants/bleach-mixing-dangers

 

[NSMikeD]

take it up with the chemist from 5star chems, as well as the EPA who state that for no-rinse sanitizing they advise chlorine bleach with vinegar. not chlorine bleach on its own.

Source for your claim? Because I believe they do not and you are conflating disaffecting and sanitizing.

From the EPA web site:

"Mixing bleach with other chemicals containing ammonia, quaternary ammonium compounds (found in other disinfectants), vinegar or other acids can create a toxic gas."

"Don’t use disinfectants on food, food contact surfaces or things that children put in their mouths. Use food contact sanitizers."


https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/documents/leonard_r9asktheexperts_508c_english.pdf

 

[day_trippr]

https://www.healthline.com/health/bleach-and-vinegar
This is plain knowledge...

Cheers!

 

[MaxStout]

StarSan is a sanitizer. It's not in the linked data sheet, because it is not a disinfectant. Iodophor is a disinfectant (if at 75-150ppm concentration). Iodophor kills a broader range of pathogens than StarSan, and does it more quickly. I put the glasses in the sink, spray, and it's disinfected after just a few minutes dwell time. A quick rinse and drip-dry.

StarSan is great for sanitizing brew gear, as that's a sufficient level of decontamination (pathogens are generally not an issue there). But with drinking glasses I want to go a step higher.

 

[day_trippr]

Jeeze, what are we so concerned about here that bug-bombing glassware is actually necessary?

My favorite beer glass for the last many years has literally never been intentionally "sanitized". It's barely even been "washed".
It's never seen sanitation temperatures as it never goes in the dishwasher and I don't have the hot water heater set to "sanitize"
I basically rinse it under warm water while "scrubbing" the inside with my fingers - no soap, no sanitizer - then towel dry it and put it away.

Cheers! (That's all, folks. And I'm still here )

 

[frithy]

Chinese Rice wine is not beer. Cleaning the fermenter with soapy water and a sponge plus a good rinse afterwards with clean water will completely suffice.

Beer is grains + hops. A rice wine is a grain without hops. If hops help protect the drink from infection, then surely the same drink without hops would need more not less attention to sanitation.

 

[frithy]

c'mon, dont be mad bro. just talk it out, work out the debate with the chemist. our state and local health inspectors. cdc. epa, i think.....



well if you actually listened to or read the interview the guy actually says that bleach and vinegar is fine for no-rinse santizer. he specifically was NOT trying to get folks to buy star san vs using his bleach/vinegar solution. so there's that.....

there's also the issue of the pH of the final solution, which you've not bothered to counterargue or refute with evidence. (but to be honest, as a non-chemist i wouldnt be able to "know" either of you were right/wrong anyways...)





perhaps you should review posts 2 and 4.

pretty sloppy for someone who works in such a dangerous lab......

https://cn.bing.com/search?q=bleach+as+a+sanitizer

 

[Miraculix]

Beer is grains + hops. A rice wine is a grain without hops. If hops help protect the drink from infection, then surely the same drink without hops would need more not less attention to sanitation.

No it does not. Chinese rice wine is a mixed fermentation. The rice "yeast" balls contain fungus (mold), yeast and bacteria. It is a mixed fermentation that is by the nature of it almost like a wild fermentation. Plus at the end of it, it has a much higher abv then beer has. That will inhibit further bacterial growth.

 

[frithy]

It only contains rhizopus oryzae and saccharomyces cerevisiae, hardly a "wild fermentation". Hell, you can buy more diverse packets of dry yeast than that. Also, normal rice wine is weak as hell. It's eaten at like 1% alcohol and is more like porridge than anything else. How do I know all this? Because I can buy packets of the leavening agent for it anywhere on my block or eat the finished product any time I want, here, in CHINA.

 

[Miraculix]

It only contains rhizopus oryzae and saccharomyces cerevisiae, hardly a "wild fermentation". Hell, you can buy more diverse packets of dry yeast than that. Also, normal rice wine is weak as hell. It's eaten at like 1% alcohol and is more like porridge than anything else. How do I know all this? Because I can buy packets of the leavening agent for it anywhere on my block, here, in CHINA.

There are different versions of rice wine. What you are talking about is the desert. What op is talking about is yellow rice wine, something entirely different. It has usually more than 15%. There is a whole dedicated thread about this topic here.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/making-traditional-rice-wine-cheap-fun-and-different.361095/
Read the last 20-30 pages and you will be up to date regarding the difference of angel brand "leavening agent" and the various different variations of yeast balls. There's also a friendly Chinese guy explaining the differences between the different ways of making rice wine and the desert.

 

[frithy]

There are different versions of rice wine. What you are talking about is the desert. What op is talking about is yellow rice wine, something entirely different. It has usually more than 15%. There is a whole dedicated thread about this topic here.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/making-traditional-rice-wine-cheap-fun-and-different.361095/
Read the last 20-30 pages and you will be up to date regarding the difference of angel brand "leavening agent" and the various different variations of yeast balls. There's also a friendly Chinese guy explaining the differences between the different ways of making rice wine and the desert.

Rice wine, mijiu, 米酒, is a sweet rice porridge that is mildly alcoholic. Yellow wine, huangjiu, 黄酒, is made using the same yeast combination and with any of sundry grains but allowed to ferment out to completion. Neither are a wild fermentation. Further, if your argument is that traditionally made rice and yellow wines that use heirloom yeasts passed from person to person are like wild fermentation, then the same would apply to any heirloom yeasts used in farm house ales and such. Also, where are you getting your "over 15%" figure from? I just checked Taobao and most huangjiu is between 10 and 14 percent.

 

[Miraculix]

Rice wine, mijiu, 米酒, is a sweet rice porridge that is mildly alcoholic. Yellow wine, huangjiu, 黄酒, is made using the same yeast combination and with any of sundry grains but allowed to ferment out to completion. Neither are a wild fermentation. Further, if your argument is that traditionally made rice and yellow wines that use heirloom yeasts passed from person to person are like wild fermentation, then the same would apply to any heirloom yeasts used in farm house ales and such. Also, where are you getting your "over 15%" figure from? I just checked Taobao and most huangjiu is between 10 and 14 percent.

Please read the quoted thread, if you have specific questions you can ask me. I have not the time to explain everything into the last details myself but it's all written on the last 20 pages or so.

 

[MaxStout]

Jeeze, what are we so concerned about here that bug-bombing glassware is actually necessary?

My favorite beer glass for the last many years has literally never been intentionally "sanitized". It's barely even been "washed".
It's never seen sanitation temperatures as it never goes in the dishwasher and I don't have the hot water heater set to "sanitize"
I basically rinse it under warm water while "scrubbing" the inside with my fingers - no soap, no sanitizer - then towel dry it and put it away.

Cheers! (That's all, folks. And I'm still here )

Ewww. Remind me to bring my own glass if I come to your house for beers.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

I clean with Fabuloso and then a mist a Febreze to sanitize.

 

[balrog]

Jeeze, what are we so concerned about here that bug-bombing glassware is actually necessary?

My favorite beer glass for the last many years has literally never been intentionally "sanitized". It's barely even been "washed".
It's never seen sanitation temperatures as it never goes in the dishwasher and I don't have the hot water heater set to "sanitize"
I basically rinse it under warm water while "scrubbing" the inside with my fingers - no soap, no sanitizer - then towel dry it and put it away.

Cheers! (That's all, folks. And I'm still here )

Everyone knows you're supposed to use your thumbs.

 

[acrowe]

I just wash my glasses - usually in the dishwasher, but I do try to keep printed glassware from breweries out of the dishwasher. Honestly I don't worry too much about sanitizing glassware that looks clean in my house (unless I have a bunch of people over and I use the dishwasher), maybe that's why I seem to get a lot of colds, or maybe its because I am exposed to it all the time teaching anyway.

As far as a bleach for sanitizing, I do and have done a lot of cooking for events and camps in inspected commercial kitchens. I am sure there are commercial solutions that are available, but bleach solutions are standard in my experience. We use them for dishes, and public health inspectors literally check the concentration of bleach when they come (kitchens should do it as well). My experience with public health inspectors is in Canada (BC & MB ).

 

[bellhp]

Meanwhile ... OP took advice given in post #2 ... put a diluted bleach solution in the carboy , rinsed it out fermented their rice wine and drank it , and moved on