Sanitizer Question....

[JonnyO]

I've brewed a couple of batches thus far and have used One-Step sanitizer which was recommended by my LHBS. I was reading some of the "NOOB Advise" sticky, and someone posted that One-Step "isn't really sanitizer." Based on what I've read on this site, the consensus is that Star-San and Iodophor are two of the best/easiest to use. I'll probably get some, but could someone explain the difference with One-Step, and why "it's not really a sanitizer." For the record, when my local guy sold me the One-Step I think his quote was "it's a sanitizer, not a sterilizer." I know the difference between the two of course, but it raises another question.....do most experienced homebrewers look for sterilization in their cleaning process, and is this the difference between One-Step and Star-San/Iodophor? I hope this post was clear enough. Thanks.

 

[Revvy]

Funny, in November, two of the LHBS's I frequent were warning us that onestep should not be used anymore, especially for bottles. I don't know which group or agency was making that recomendation but they were both telling their customers to swtich to idophor or starsan.

It really is about the number of colonies of nasties it kills....Onestep's kill ratio is not high enough to qualify for FDA approval to be called a food grade sanitizer.

The official definition (Association of Official Analytical Chemists) of sanitizing for food product contact surfaces is a process which reduces the contamination level by 99.999% (5 logs) in 30 sec.

Idophor and Starsan both are FDA approved. They kill just about everything we need to worry about in food handling in less than a minute contact time, depending on the concentration.

One step is really just little more than a strong cleanser. Since it came with your kit use it up...but let everything soak initially for 5-10 minutes.

And as soon as you use it up get one of the real sanitizers. Like I said you can just dip stuff in it for 30 seconds and use it with your beer (like if suddenly your thermometer falls off the side of your pot while you are cooling your wort. You can just dip a pair of kitchen tongs into the sanitizer, cout to 30 and fish it out.)

You can also find Idophor Sanitizers in farm and feed stores...8 dollars for an entire gallon of concentrate...as opposed to 4 bucks for a little 10 ounce bottle.

Both Idophor and Starsan have their strengths and weakness...and their fans. Whichever you choose the one thing you don't have to worry about is them not doing their job.

If you really want to understand it all, you can read this geek document http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/FS077

 

[JonnyO]

thanks for the info. Of course it makes me worry about my current batch a little bit since the One-Step instructions say "sanitizes on contact" so I didn't do a really good soak with my equipment, including my fermenting bucket. Oh well, hopefully nothing nasty was floating around my kitchen that day!!!

 

[Revvy]

You're safe with the onestep for now...they wouldn't include it with kits if it ruined beer...It's just not worth the risk in the future, when there are better products out there. And when you run out, for the amount in gallons of sanitized water you get with either starsan or Iodohpor it's way more cost effective than buying onestep. Heck my kit didn't have onestep in it...It came with a small bottle of Iodophor...

If you go with Iodophor, then the answer is no, the iodine smell you get won't effect your beer if you are using the ratio of 1 tbs per 5 gallons of water.

ANd with Starsan...Don't fear the foam!!! THe foam is actually good yeast food...

Since you got some time, til you're going to make the decision which product to use, you might want to listen to these podscast on sanitization at

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2007

Scroll down til you see these episodes.

March 29, 2007 - Sanitizing with Bleach and Star San
Charlie Talley from Five Star Chemicals tells us best practices in using household bleach and Star San in sanitizing equipment.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-29-07.mp3

March 22, 2007 - Sanitizing with Iodophor
Murl Landman of National Chemicals talks to us about sanitization techniques in general and using Iodophor specifically.

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbr03-22-07.mp3

 

[riored4v]

Revvy, with OneStep, you mentioned to let the items soak for 5-10 min.

It appears I've been making some mistakes then. Is this necessary to let them soak? I've been using a bucket to make the OneStep solution, and then using a sponge to wipe off all my items, and then soak or spray them in StarSan.

What about with Oxyclean... is a soak necessary?

 

[Revvy]

Revvy, with OneStep, you mentioned to let the items soak for 5-10 min.

It appears I've been making some mistakes then. Is this necessary to let them soak? I've been using a bucket to make the OneStep solution, and then using a sponge to wipe off all my items, and then soak or spray them in StarSan.

What about with Oxyclean... is a soak necessary?

If you're using starsan, then you really don't need the onestep at all...Of course you are overkilling, which isn't a bad thing actually, but will be cost prohibitive (buying both onestep and Starsan...)

I recommend a 5-10 minute soak with the onestep, because of the kill ratio being so much lower than the 30 second kill rate of the sanitizers...I figure the longer you would let something soak in onestep the higher the kill numbers would be...

I use a 5 gal soysauce bucket to sanitize everything in...I mix a little less than a tbs of Iodophor in 4 gallons of h20 til it's a straw color...then everything goes in it...I also have a sponge that I leave in the bucket (it serves the same purpose that your spray bottle does...for surface contact.) I keep it near the stove during the whole process that way if I need to fish someting out of the wort with tongs or something I'm more apt to remember to sanitize them.)

I also repeatedly soak my hands in it to...especially during bottling...

Also the big thing with the Iodophor or starsan is that you don't have to actually soak anything for thirty seconds....You just have to wet it for 30 seconds...Meaning you can dunk something in it and as long as it doesn't drain dry and is coated with sanitizer for 30 seconds everything dead...

 

[riored4v]

good deal. thanks for the info.

i guess overkill with cleanliness isn't a bad thing..lol

I do the same thing... i keep the StarSan bucket, sponge and spray bottle next to my stove and just keep everything in there until I'm ready to use it. I also have a habit of sanitzing everything before putting it all away.

thanks again.

 

[Bobby_M]

I am generally convinced (with no real scientific proof) that oxyclean and onestep are the same thing. I've used both Iodaphor and One Step as sanitizers with no infections in 22 batches. Once I use all of it up, I'll probably get starsan because it's so highly regarded.

 

[Revvy]

I am generally convinced (with no real scientific proof) that oxyclean and onestep are the same thing. I've used both Iodaphor and One Step as sanitizers with no infections in 22 batches. Once I use all of it up, I'll probably get starsan because it's so highly regarded.

Onestep doesnt foam up enough to be oxyclean (my cleaner of choice, btw)...I think onestep and PBR are the same thing...or at least similar...they both have the same small bubbles when you fill a bowl with each of them and let it sit for a bit...

I was planning to switch to starsan when I finally ran out of Iodophor...but I think I've fallen in love with it...and buying it from a farm and feed at 8 bucks/gallon of concentrate beats the price of starsan any day.

I dunno...I'll probably buy the smallest amount of starsan I can get to try it out...If I decide I like iodophor better, then I'll buy the stuff from the farm and feed...I think 1 gallon would probably last me the next 20 years...

 

[Willy Boner]

I've never used iodophor but StarSan is great stuff and you can keep using it over and over until the ph level drops to under 3 I believe. I kept screwing up my clothes with bleach so SWMBO banned me from that. I would probably be banned from the iodophor too.

 

[Revvy]

I've never used iodophor but StarSan is great stuff and you can keep using it over and over until the ph level drops to under 3 I believe. I kept screwing up my clothes with bleach so SWMBO banned me from that. I would probably be banned from the iodophor too.

I haven't had any noticable staining due to undiluted iodophor...but at full strength it's dark brown...well that's another story...Yeah, best to keep swmbo happy!

 

[JonnyO]

I'm glad I finally actually started a thread that got some good discussion going! I have another question...I generally use my primary (5-gal. plastic bucket) as a sanitizing container. I sanitize all my equipment in it an figure the primary gets sanitized at the same time. It seems advisable to keep a bucket of sanitizer near by during brewing....is there anything wrong with using the primary for this task, then just dumping out the sanitizer and pouring in the wort? I gather from other posts that Starsan/Iodophor don't harm the brew if there's still a little in the primary or on any equipment that comes in contact with the brew

 

[Revvy]

I'm glad I finally actually started a thread that got some good discussion going! I have another question...I generally use my primary (5-gal. plastic bucket) as a sanitizing container. I sanitize all my equipment in it an figure the primary gets sanitized at the same time. It seems advisable to keep a bucket of sanitizer near by during brewing....is there anything wrong with using the primary for this task, then just dumping out the sanitizer and pouring in the wort? I gather from other posts that Starsan/Iodophor don't harm the brew if there's still a little in the primary or on any equipment that comes in contact with the brew

The biggest problem with using the primary or bottling bucket as the sanitizer bucket is the pontential to scratch the inside of it, which will then easily become a breeding ground for future infections.

I have a 5 gallon soy sauce bucket (but you could get a 5 dollar hardware store bucket) that is my sanitizer/cleaning bucket. I know personally I'm pretty rough on my sanitizer bucket...Jammng it full of bottles and oxyclean to de labbel...craming in with bottles to sanitize...and I'm not worried about scratches with that one...

The other thing is that over time iodophor will stain plastic and enough layers of dried and built up iodophor could build up a concentration on the sides, that could possibly effect the taste of your brews...especially the lighter ones...

So sanitizer bucket near stove- good thing. Sanitizer bucket that is bottling or primary- mebbe not so good thing.

I find that having the bucket of sanitizer near by (with a sponge in it) is probably the best thing that I could have done for my process...Like I may have said earlier if I have a goof up-like what happened on saturday when I knocked my thermometer into the wort while I was chilling it, I just grabbed a pair of kitchen tongs, dropped them in the buckt for 30 seconds, then rescued my thermometer.

In the future I may just keep tongs soaking in the bucket during the session...

Oh another good tool to add to your sanitization arsenal, besides a sponge and spray bottle is a wallpaper soaking tray (another 5 dollah harware store deal.)

Fill it with sanitizer and lay in any long things- your racking cane or autospiphon, your long spoons, hoses...anything that wont fit in your bucket or sink.:rockin:

 

[JonnyO]

Thanks for all the help Revvy. You've become like my Yoda of sanitization. Brilliant idea, the wallpaper tray. So are iodophor and starsan strong enough that it's sufficient to just spay/sponge down the primary, leave it wet, and just dump the excess prior to introduction of the wort?

 

[Revvy]

Thanks for all the help Revvy. You've become like my Yoda of sanitization. Brilliant idea, the wallpaper tray. So are iodophor and starsan strong enough that it's sufficient to just spay/sponge down the primary, leave it wet, and just dump the excess prior to introduction of the wort?

I used to think I couldn't do sanitization or something....I thought that would be the one thing that would break me as a brewer...I'm a really messy person...Especially in the kitchen when I'm cooking.

Now I've become Yoda.:rockin:

So what I've been reading is that it all about "wet contact time." Which means making sure the surface is wet for 30 seconds. So yeah spraying or spongeing on a coating of either one and not letting dry for 30 seconds before touching it to the wort is the way to go... I've started using less and less iodophor in sanitizing... For example I lately have only been putting in about 2 gallons of sanitizer in my carboys. I then put a sanitized stopper in it, Then a piece of sanitzed tinfoil over that to plug the airlock hole. Then I turn my carboy on it's side and roll it around on the carpeted floor for a couple minutes, making sure that all the sides and the neck get wet several times. (With my sanitized hand over the tinfoil to make sure that none leaks out.)

"Sanitize, we must, my young Padwan!"

 

[JonnyO]

Fantastic, Revvy. Thanks

 

[AFAJ Brew Guy]

I know a lot of other people do it as well, but a spray bottle full of Starsan or Iodophor is a great thing to have lying around. Makes it realy easy to sanitize something in a pinch.

Thanks the wallpaper tray idea. I hadn't even thought of that!

 

[paranode]

Another vote for StarSan. You can just keep it in a bucket and keep using it over and over until it's no longer active. Then just make another batch with a small amount. If you spill it, no big deal at all. Plus you don't have to rinse it out of every nook and cranny because it's pretty safe. And it keeps working after it's dried onto the surface.

 

[polamalu43]

Do you need to rinse off all of these sanitizer that have been listed (StarSan, oxyclean, Onestep, Iodophor, etc) like you do with bleach?

I’m nervous that I am getting soapy off-flavors because of two things:
A) Careless bleach-water ratios that result in too much bleach and too little water (overbleaching)
B) Insufficient rinsing

I think I need to switch to a sanitizer…

 

[Yooper]

I don't know about oxyclean (I've only used it as a cleaner, not a sanitizer), but Iodophor, Star-san, and Onestep are all no rinse sanitizers when properly diluted. Also, they do not need to dry, so you can sanitize and use immediately.

I mix up the sanitizer, and just dunk the items in it and put them on clean paper towels on the counter, after spraying some sanitizer on the counters. When I bottle, I use clean bottles and the vinator and bottle tree and squirt the sanitizer in it. Takes me about 5 minutes to sanitize 40 bottles.

 

[hardrain]

so what is the 'wet contact time' for iodine? (or is it 'iodophor'? same thing?)

also, do i need to be using something else to 'clean' afterwords? Ive seen TSP but have no idea what that is. Can i simply 'clean' with the iodine and a brush?

 

[HP_Lovecraft]

I had been using OneStep, and B-Brite for 8 years. Just recently the LHBS stopped calling them sanitizers, but just cleaners. When asked, I was given a speach about how "peroxide-based" cleaners do sanitize, but technically takes 30-minutes at "no rinse" dilution levels.

I've never actually had a problem, but it made me nervous enough that I just bought some Starsan, and just don't think about it any more.

 

[Revvy]

so what is the 'wet contact time' for iodine? (or is it 'iodophor'? same thing?)

also, do i need to be using something else to 'clean' afterwords? Ive seen TSP but have no idea what that is. Can i simply 'clean' with the iodine and a brush?

30 seconds.

Clean first, sanitize second...Iodophor is the concentrated Iodine sanitizer we're talking about here. Star San is not iodine based and is the other most popular sanitizer around...Both have a 30 second contact time and shouldn't be rinsed afterwards.

Oxyclean and the generic derivitives are the best cleaner around even better than PBW...most of the people on here use it...and since I started using Oxyclean, I've never needed to use either a carboy or bottle brush, the bubbles break up even the toughest gunk inside a fermenter or brewpot.

Just make sure you rinse thoroughly afterwards.

 

[Revvy]

I had been using OneStep, and B-Brite for 8 years. Just recently the LHBS stopped calling them sanitizers, but just cleaners. When asked, I was given a speach about how "peroxide-based" cleaners do sanitize, but technically takes 30-minutes at "no rinse" dilution levels.

That's because of the FDA definition of what a santizer is...Something evidently changed recently...I was told the same thing about one-step.

I posted this earlier in the thread.

The official definition (Association of Official Analytical Chemists) of sanitizing for food product contact surfaces is a process which reduces the contamination level by 99.999% (5 logs) in 30 sec.

Idophor and Starsan both are FDA approved. They kill just about everything we need to worry about in food handling in less than a minute contact time, depending on the concentration.

They meet the FDA's definition of what a foodgrade sanitizer is. The other's don't.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

So does the ingredient in oxyclean. If course it will take me a week to find that info.

I rinse my oxyclean off. I also rinsed iodophor off as well. They may be "no rinse" cleaners but some of that stuff still ends up in the beer. (I owuldnlt worry to much about it though).

I was talking to a brewmaster the other month, that said he had a buddy that does chemical analyses lab work. So for the hell of it they took a can of bud, Molson Canadian and another mega brew and checked the iodophor levels. They had 8 times the legal amount!

 

[jfish63]

Some cleaners are sanitizers but by law cannot state that on the label without paying for testing every year. Some brands of bleach other than clorox are an example. Here is a question posted on the midwest site. I have seen it on many other sites. The information is out there if you have time to look into a certain product. I have seen one step listed as a sanitizer on some sites and have used it as one for years but always with a 30 minute soak time..


Question:
The One Step packaging says it's a "cleanser" and not a "sanitizer". What does that mean?

Answer:
In the U.S.A., "sanitizer" is a legal term defined by the Environmental Protection Agency. In order for a product to be called a sanitizer in promotional literature or on its packaging, that product must be approved by the EPA, assigned a registration number, and have an open file maintained with the EPA. Unless a company would like to invest an enormous amount of capitol in this process (or use another company's product through a process called "sub-registration"), they may not call their product a sanitizer. If you purchase a bottle of bleach from the grocery store, unless it shows an EPA registration number on the front of the label, it is not a sanitizer. However, it will certainly be a good cleanser (although somewhat hazardous, not environmentally sound, and it will require rinsing).

 

[Thwizzit]

Is C-Brite really as scary as it sounds on the package? The warnings make is sound like the deadliest poison known to man. Skin Contact: "Rinse skin immediately for 15-20 minutes and call poison control center. Get Medical Attention". Yikes... How can something like this be used for cleaning food utensils? It doesn't sound like anyone should go near it.

On another note, when you sanitize something, how long does bucket/ and utensils to stay sanitized for? Meaning, if you sanitize your bucket using the C-Brite, they say to rinse it and let it air-dry but if it's sitting there air drying, won't it attract microbes by the time it's dry and then not be sanitized anymore?

 

[Revvy]

Is C-Brite really as scary as it sounds on the package? The warnings make is sound like the deadliest poison known to man. Skin Contact: "Rinse skin immediately for 15-20 minutes and call poison control center. Get Medical Attention". Yikes... How can something like this be used for cleaning food utensils? It doesn't sound like anyone should go near it.

On another note, when you sanitize something, how long does bucket/ and utensils to stay sanitized for? Meaning, if you sanitize your bucket using the C-Brite, they say to rinse it and let it air-dry but if it's sitting there air drying, won't it attract microbes by the time it's dry and then not be sanitized anymore?

1) I hear the warnings on starsan are just a scary...just like all the warnings on the prescription drug commercials on tv...Litigation, litigation, litigation....

2) I usually don't let anything airdry too long....I figure as long as it is still wet then the object is sanitized...I think the longest anything of mine sits sanitized before I use it is my bottles...since I sanitize them in batches of 12 and then invert them to drain, MAYBE the first batch of bottles sits upside down is for 1/2 hour before I use them...but since they're inverted then there's little chance of anything airborn getting in.....

 

[Thwizzit]

On the subject of sanitizer, I've read in a couple of posts that some people put their bottles and equipment in the dishwasher and set it to SANITZE. Assuming that works, will it also work to put a packet of One-Step in the detergent bin and run it through the cycle?

 

[Revvy]

On the subject of sanitizer, I've read in a couple of posts that some people put their bottles and equipment in the dishwasher and set it to SANITZE. Assuming that works, will it also work to put a packet of One-Step in the detergent bin and run it through the cycle?

hmm...I don't know. I don't have a dishwasher so I haven't paid too much attention to those discussions.

I think most of the people run it through the sanitizer setting with no soap whatsoever (to avoid killing the head on the beer.) It seems to me that since the sanitization in the dishwashere is done by heat, you'd be wasting the onestep...

Of course you can never be too sanitized!

You may be onto something here......

 

[beerthirty]

30 seconds.

Clean first, sanitize second...Iodophor is the concentrated Iodine sanitizer we're talking about here. Star San is not iodine based and is the other most popular sanitizer around...Both have a 30 second contact time and shouldn't be rinsed afterwards.

Oxyclean and the generic derivitives are the best cleaner around even better than PBW...most of the people on here use it...and since I started using Oxyclean, I've never needed to use either a carboy or bottle brush, the bubbles break up even the toughest gunk inside a fermenter or brewpot.

Just make sure you rinse thoroughly afterwards.

Ive heard about it on these forums, do you mean the stuff Billy Mays sells on tv?

 

[Revvy]

Ive heard about it on these forums, do you mean the stuff Billy Mays sells on tv?

Oyclean???

Yeah it's the Billy Mays stuff...it is amazing as a cleaner...I've had nothing not be clean by it in the brewing process...even the things that sit below the heating elements on the stove....I had a boilover, and immediatey after put them in a bucket full of oxyclean and hot water....it took a couple of changes of water and oxyclean but it came clean..

You can even soak the labels of beer bottles in a few hours.

 

[Hegh]

hmm...I don't know. I don't have a dishwasher so I haven't paid too much attention to those discussions.

I think most of the people run it through the sanitizer setting with no soap whatsoever (to avoid killing the head on the beer.) It seems to me that since the sanitization in the dishwashere is done by heat, you'd be wasting the onestep...

Of course you can never be too sanitized!

You may be onto something here......

From what I've read, the jets from the dishwasher can't get up into the narrow openings in things like beer bottles or lots of other brewing equipment (hoses, autosiphon, ...), so make sure everything is clean first, use the sanitize cycle for sanitizing only.

The dishwasher sanitizes by filling up the space with steam and keeping it hot for a while, so it basically just boils the bacteria to death, since steam can be hotter than water and transfers heat better than dry air.

 

[Bigbens6]

I am amazed that Starsan is a no rinse cleaner/sanitizer... i always rinsed like 3 or 4 times, am i being absurd?!?!? I soak my bottles in starsan for like 5 min then rinse 3 times hang on the bottle tree till i am done and then go straight to bottling.

So if i am understanding, i can simply WET my equipment for 30 seconds min, then go straight to use?!?!?

 

[dontman]

I am amazed that Starsan is a no rinse cleaner/sanitizer... i always rinsed like 3 or 4 times, am i being absurd?!?!? I soak my bottles in starsan for like 5 min then rinse 3 times hang on the bottle tree till i am done and then go straight to bottling.

So if i am understanding, i can simply WET my equipment for 30 seconds min, then go straight to use?!?!?

When you rinse do you rinse with boiled water? or sanitized in any way? If not then it is unsanitary to rinse. This is why we use no rinse sanitizers.

 

[Bigbens6]

Yeah i am realizing that now haha, I will not be rinsing my stuff anymore!!! So does anyone know how long after it dries the starsan is still good at keeping stuff sanitary?

 

[Hegh]

Yeah i am realizing that now haha, I will not be rinsing my stuff anymore!!! So does anyone know how long after it dries the starsan is still good at keeping stuff sanitary?

I'm not sure you're still protected once it dries... But at that point, you only need to worry about airborne particles, or perhaps a stray sneeze or dog tongue. Plus, if you keep some in a spray bottle/keep a sponge in the solution, you can give anything you're uncomfortable with one more quick spray/wipe-down before using it.

 

[Revvy]

Yeah i am realizing that now haha, I will not be rinsing my stuff anymore!!! So does anyone know how long after it dries the starsan is still good at keeping stuff sanitary?

Go back and read what I posted in this thread...These sanitizers are WET CONTACT sanitizers....If you keep it wet any micro organisms that land on it are killed...if it's dry then the micro organism unsanitizes the object.

If you let it dry the bugs don't die!!!

 

[Bigbens6]

Go back and read what I posted in this thread...These sanitizers are WET CONTACT sanitizers....If you keep it wet any micro organisms that land on it are killed...if it's dry then the micro organism unsanitizes the object.

If you let it dry the bugs don't die!!!

And that was my thought, but i swear i read somewhere that it continues to sanitize even when dry, but according to the webcast i listened to, thats not true, but man i wasted alot of time rinsing and cleaning!!!!

 

[dontman]

And that was my thought, but i swear i read somewhere that it continues to sanitize even when dry, but according to the webcast i listened to, thats not true, but man i wasted alot of time rinsing and cleaning!!!!

Yea, I read something similar at some point about how you should let it dry. Then I read the ingredients and realized that that doesn't make sense. Dry acid = nothing on surface = no sanitizing capability.

BTW, if you had no infections or bottle bombs then your time was not wasted really.