Sam Adams to lose craft beer status

[nutty_gnome]

I think its a tax dodge and it irritates me that their local reps are going to make a stink about this in DC when there are so many other things to worry about.

There is a reason the limit is set at 2MM. It helps the start ups and the little guy. SA is no longer a little guy and doesn't need protecting and tax shelters.

 

[beerchemist]

I learned to homebrew from a man who brewed with his dad that brewed in a secret room in the chicken coop during prohibition. I know my heritage.

My grandfather, who wasn't even a beer drinker, did the same (minus the chicken coop), and I suspect most people's did, whether they now know it or not.

Prohibition killed hundreds of "regional" brewers like yengling

Yuengling has been in continuous operation for 180+ years, and shipped a truckload of beer to the White House right after prohibition ended. Rumors of their demise have been greatly exaggerated--I even have a case of lager in my kitchen right now!

http://www.beerhistory.com/library/holdings/yuengling.shtml

If you look at that top-20 list from a few pages back, you'll see, in addition to Yuengling near the top, that Genesee and Iron City, both century-old regional brewers, not only survived prohibition, but survive to this day.

Regional brewers that produced indistinguishable fizzy yellow beers have given way to regional brewers that produce a variety of craft/micro/whatever you want to call them beers, or regional brewers that appear to be trying to re-brand themselves as the latter (e.g. The Lion). I'd have to say that it's a Good Thing.

 

[jacobiwj]

If ANY of their beers still tasted like they did 4-5 years ago.. I'd call it craft. Now it all tastes like main stream garbage. Tax the hell out of them.

 

[JeffHops]

First off Jim Koch can kiss my ***. He buys no American Hops. Never even brewed thier own beer until recently.(Still a small portion)
He brewed beer in the Blitz Wheinhard brewery for Gods sake! We've had discussions with them until we were blue in the face. Nothing but an elitest Blowhard!

 

[babalu87]

The hate is strong in this thread

 

[wscott823]

First off Jim Koch can kiss my ***. He buys no American Hops.

What difference does it make if the hops aren't american? It's a known fact that Jim Koch uses German noble hops for many SA beers.

Never even brewed thier own beer until recently.(Still a small portion)
He brewed beer in the Blitz Wheinhard brewery for Gods sake!

If I started my own brewery and didn't have my own facility to brew in, would that make me any less of a brewer or detract from the quality of my product? Ease up with the hating dude.

As homebrewers, we should have some respect for him and the doors he opened allowing access to beers outside the box of fizzy yellow lager.

 

[olllllo]

So much to refute.

BA is a lobby, but so is the AHA... you know, the guys that fight for the rights of homebrewers in OK (recently passed) and AL (illegal). BA = AHA, they are the same organization.

This beer issue and thread won't fix lobbies, eradicate progressive taxes, eliminate vestiges of prohibition, etc.

We don't tax based on taste, otherwise guess what? BMC would be tax free.


Brooklyn started K brewing at FX Matt.

Dozens of micros started as K brewers.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

The outcome of this tax issue won't make Sam Adams a better or worse brewery. Some folks already think of Sam Adams as a "big brewery," while others will continue to consider Sam Adams to be a big craft brewery. A tax label won't change that, just like the label, "Ale in Texas," doesn't make Boston Lager an ale.

If Sam Adams has outgrown the tax break, then taxes should be paid. If the tax law is unjust or unfair, then it should be changed. I'm not sure I know enough to argue either side there.

 

[GroovePuppy]

If Sam Adams is a craft brewery then the limit is already too high!

 

[a10t2]

One thing I don't think has been mentioned is the three-tiered liquor distribution system in this country -- which is totally dominated by BMC and used to stifle so many smaller breweries from ever growing.

32 states allow breweries to self-distribute. Odd how that didn't come up in Beer Wars...

Middle ground? I could agree with that.

That's exactly what the proposed legislation would establish. $3.50/bbl up to 60k, $16/bbl up to 6M, $18/bbl thereafter.

The only breweries that will see a LARGE (>20%) reduction in their taxes as a result are those making less than ~200k barrels a year.

 

[wscott823]

Since i didn't see anyone actually posting the BA's definition of an American Craft Brewery, thought it was time bring it to light. Source

An American craft brewer is small, independent and traditional.

Small: Annual production of beer less than 2 million barrels. Beer production is attributed to a brewer according to the rules of alternating proprietorships. Flavored malt beverages are not considered beer for purposes of this definition.

Independent: Less than 25% of the craft brewery is owned or controlled (or equivalent economic interest) by an alcoholic beverage industry member who is not themselves a craft brewer.

Traditional: A brewer who has either an all malt flagship (the beer which represents the greatest volume among that brewers brands) or has at least 50% of its volume in either all malt beers or in beers which use adjuncts to enhance rather than lighten flavor.

The following are some concepts related to craft beer and craft brewers:

• Craft brewers are small brewers.
• Small brewers are defined as those who qualify for the Tax and Trade Bureau's small brewers excise tax differential by producing less than 2 million barrels annually.
• The hallmark of craft beer and craft brewers is innovation. Craft brewers interpret historic styles with unique twists and develop new styles that have no precedent.
• Craft beer is generally made with traditional ingredients like malted barley; interesting and sometimes non-traditional ingredients are often added for distinctiveness.
• Craft Brewers tend to be very involved in their communities through philanthropy, product donations, volunteerism, and sponsorship of events.
• Craft Brewers have distinctive, individualistic approaches to connecting with their customers.
• Craft Brewers maintain integrity by what they brew and their general independence, free from a substantial interest by a non-craft brewer.
• The majority of Americans live within ten miles of a craft brewer.

 

[billvon]

Some of the "get the big guys, level the playing field, screw Jim Koch for his success" crap I just red makes me ill. I thought most homebrewers would be part of the freedom/liberty screw the govmnt crowd but sadly I must be mistaken.

?? I'm glad Jim Koch got a tax break for so long, and that that was part of his success. This is a story of tax breaks working, not failing. I hope it works as well for other breweries.

And I don't want to screw the government _or_ Jim Koch (ew.) The reason I post here (and the reason I make beer) is to have fun making beer, not to take a political stand.

Prohibition killed hundreds of "regional" brewers like yengling

Agreed - but no one wants to 'ban' anything.

 

[Holl]

Just a little microecon to address some misunderstandings about a tax's effect on prices. Prices to the consumer are determined by supply and demand. If a tax on production is decreased, the cost to produce is decreased, so producers can (and probably will, but might not depending on price elasticities) increase supply. Increased supply with no change to demand means cheaper beer.
An increase in tax on production might similarly cause a decrease in supply, but again, not neccessarily. If supply decreases with no change in demand, cost will rise. At all times, prices are determined not by producers, but by supply and demand in the market.

As for a brewery determining prices in concert with other breweries, based on an understanding, this is by definition anticompetitive (and illegal).

BTW, the 3-tiered distribution system is anticompetitive. It clearly allows BMC to collude against smaller breweries by determining the market supply mix, and should be abolished. Until that happens, I'm all for a tax that applies only to them, as they are enjoying an oligopoly and so their profits are already above market. Hopefully BBC continues to grow and have a more influential lobby that will some day fix this, for all of our sake, as beer consumers and market participants.

 

[SumnerH]

Traditional: A brewer who has either an all malt flagship (the beer which represents the greatest volume among that brewers brands) or has at least 50% of its volume in either all malt beers or in beers which use adjuncts to enhance rather than lighten flavor.

This clause is so totally bogus that it's always irked me when I read this definition.

When A-B started out the adjuncts were more expensive than barley--they paid a premium for them to try to hit a flavor profile that their customers wanted. That flavor happened to be lighter, but it was done for the flavor itself. Pretending that that's somehow less of a flavor enhancement than, say, using sugar to dry out your saison is silly.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

This clause is so totally bogus that it's always irked me when I read this definition.

When A-B started out the adjuncts were more expensive than barley--they paid a premium for them to try to hit a flavor profile that their customers wanted. That flavor happened to be lighter, but it was done for the flavor itself. Pretending that that's somehow less of a flavor enhancement than, say, using sugar to dry out your saison is silly.

Can you verify this? I'm not getting involved in the heat of this thread. I'm simply interested in that particular aspect.

 

[bob1852]

Can you verify this? I'm not getting involved in the heat of this thread. I'm simply interested in that particular aspect.

Ambitious Brew by Maurene Ogle.

Revvy's written a ton about it....hopefully he'll be along shortly to cut & paste

 

[curlyfat]

So you're a big fan of Wal-Mart?

If we didn't buy stuff from them, they wouldn't be so big and "evil". If you don't like how someone does business, don't do business with them. It's not the governments place to punish someone with taxes for being much more successful than their competitors. And no, I don't have any major issues with Walmart.

Man, this thread got political. I need a beer.

 

[JNye]

This clause is so totally bogus that it's always irked me when I read this definition.

When A-B started out the adjuncts were more expensive than barley--they paid a premium for them to try to hit a flavor profile that their customers wanted. That flavor happened to be lighter, but it was done for the flavor itself. Pretending that that's somehow less of a flavor enhancement than, say, using sugar to dry out your saison is silly.

haha, thank you. that whole definition is elitist "we can use adjuncts but you can't".

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

If we didn't buy stuff from them, they wouldn't be so big and "evil". If you don't like how someone does business, don't do business with them. It's not the governments place to punish someone with taxes for being much more successful than their competitors.

It depends on which way you see it. It can be hiking taxes for the rich, or giving tax breaks to the poor.

I see it as an incentive to small brewers to enable them to grow and create healthy competition in the market place.

 

[BendBrewer]

I think that the confusion here is people thinking that the Feds are taxing successful firms MORE. That really isn't the case. Sure you can look at it that way and possibly justify your argument but this isn't about taxing them more, it's about taxing the small businesses less to allow them a better chance of succeeding and contributing to our economy by providing jobs. These tax breaks allowed BBC to become who they are today, and is a clear indication that it was a win win decision to lessen the tax burden of smaller breweries.

But to come at this from the perspective that the government is trying to punish success as it attempts to help out the little guys is simply asinine.

 

[curlyfat]

I have no problems with tax breaks. I do, however, have problems with the tiered, overcomplicated tax structure that we have. But, I don't see it changing anytime soon, and I've gone off-topic here.

Bottom line, if I was Jim, I'd be lobbying for lower taxes too.

 

[billvon]

That flavor happened to be lighter, but it was done for the flavor itself.

Agreed. Imagine Dogfish Head being disqualified because someone thinks that they use apricots in their Aprihop ale to "mellow the hop flavor."

 

[wscott823]

If they were stripped of the Craft Brewery title, they'd be screwed in the marketing dept. They say Dogfish Head Craft Brewery right on the labels

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

So you're a big fan of Wal-Mart?

Most certainly. Between them and Mega Target WalMart does have the lowest prices and the larger selection.

How on earth has it become shiek to be irrtated by success.

Because they barter down the suppliers? Well, those suppliers weren't forced to do business with them.

Because it hurts Mom and Pops? Sorry. Too bad. That's business and business is a competition.

Lack of service? Yeah. I am smart enough to read a fooking package to know that I got what I need. Don't need "Ed" to decide that for me.

 

[bob1852]

How on earth has it become shiek to be irrtated by success.

I'd answer that, but we aren't in the debate forum

 

[bob1852]

Can you verify this? I'm not getting involved in the heat of this thread. I'm simply interested in that particular aspect.

here ya go...

But the undeniable fact remains that the big American brewers severely cut their recipes with cheaper corn and rice. So, how did we get here? Ogle explained how the Germans that began arriving in the early eighteen hundreds brought their beer with them. The recently created Pilsner-style lager was very popular among the immigrants and breweries were soon being built to serve this demand. Later, when other Americans starting to enjoy this clear refreshing drink, the typical diet was high in meats and carbohydrates. The light beer provided refreshment and relaxation without being quite so filling. Brewers figured out that the lighter the beer, the better it sold. Adjuncts were required to get it lighter. During the late 1870s brewers began cutting the barley in their beer with corn and rice. These lighter beers sold even better and appealed to more drinkers than the all-barely brews. This, however, was not a supply side business decision. In fact, corn and rice were actually more expensive then than barley.

http://beer.about.com/od/historyofbeer/a/OgleInterview_2.htm

 

[r_flagg]

"But the undeniable fact remains that the big American brewers severely cut their recipes with cheaper corn and rice."

"In fact, corn and rice were actually more expensive then than barley."

These two statements contradict each other. I think I'm missing some earlier context. Is Ogle saying that nowadays corn and rice are cheaper than barley, whereas back then it was not a cost decision, but a preference?

 

[SumnerH]

"But the undeniable fact remains that the big American brewers severely cut their recipes with cheaper corn and rice."

"In fact, corn and rice were actually more expensive then than barley."

These two statements contradict each other. I think I'm missing some earlier context. Is Ogle saying that nowadays corn and rice are cheaper than barley, whereas back then it was not a cost decision, but a preference?

Yes, that's exactly right. She's clearer in the BBR interview she did in 2006, or the book. The former's free, archives here:
http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=60 November 30, 2006 and December 7, 2006 - Ambitious Brew Parts One and Two

 

[Photopilot]

I did not realize the SA did so much for homebrewers and the brewing industry in general so my respect goes out to it. I admit I have not tried their beers besides his lager but have never been impressed with it. I put it in a category with Fat Tire, a MEH beer that is popular with people expanding out from BMC.

The company has grown big, but is not endanger from becoming BMC-SA anytime soon, it is a giant in the "craft brew" industry and should pay its taxes accordingly. I doubt doing so will cause its stock prices to plunge, but it may make some room for the smaller guys in terms of competitive advantage for the small time brewers.

 

[huskyhauler]

If craft brewers get sweet little tax breaks, do you think they will give us sweet little price breaks on their product?

 

[remilard]

This clause is so totally bogus that it's always irked me when I read this definition.

When A-B started out the adjuncts were more expensive than barley--they paid a premium for them to try to hit a flavor profile that their customers wanted. That flavor happened to be lighter, but it was done for the flavor itself. Pretending that that's somehow less of a flavor enhancement than, say, using sugar to dry out your saison is silly.

+1

The BA definition of craft brewer is arbitrary and written to exclude exactly who they want to exclude.

The corn in Coors is more flavorful than the sugar in Westmalle.

 

[billvon]

If craft brewers get sweet little tax breaks, do you think they will give us sweet little price breaks on their product?

They sure seem to. I've never gotten free beer from any of the brewers of Miller Lite.

 

[Starderup]

They sure seem to. I've never gotten free beer from any of the brewers of Miller Lite.

Good point. If Miller or Bud ever does something like Sierra Nevada's Beer Camp, feel free to PM me! LOL.
Linky

 

[hank1072]

But to come at this from the perspective that the government is trying to punish success as it attempts to help out the little guys is simply asinine.[/QUOTE

]

Have her heard the saying "Spread the wealth?" ..It has already started.

 

[Christian]

I can walk down to my local 7-11 and buy SA and i can do the same pretty much anywhere else.....to me that is not a craft brewer. I have never seen a national ad for the other bigger "craft" brewers like Stone, Dogfishhead, Rogue, Sierra Nevada etc yet i can see an SA one every day. That disqualifies them in my book!

 

[rico567]

There will be as many opinions as there are definitions of what constitutes a "craft beer," and there are already plenty of those in this thread. It's obvious that the bill is being pushed so that BBC can keep their tax incentive. We'd all be doing the same thing, in their shoes.

Reminds me of The Wise Men And The Elephant:

"And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!"

- last stanza, by John Godfrey Saxe (1816-1887)

 

[Starderup]

I can walk down to my local 7-11 and buy SA and i can do the same pretty much anywhere else.....to me that is not a craft brewer. I have never seen a national ad for the other bigger "craft" brewers like Stone, Dogfishhead, Rogue, Sierra Nevada etc yet i can see an SA one every day. That disqualifies them in my book!

I can't remember the last time I sat a tv ad for SA. Maybe your market is different. If we use that as a criteria - SA still qualifies here.

 

[JerD]

Since it appears BBC is the largest wholly American owned beer company and it seems important for the rest of the world to like the U.S., the gov should probably give large and substantial subsidies to BBC so it can give the beer away to other countries. At least the rest of the true beer drinking world would start to see "mass produced" American beer doesn't suck.

 

[SumnerH]

Since it appears BBC is the largest wholly American owned beer company

as mentioned upthread, Yuengling has a better claim than BBC to this title, and even in the one odd way that BBC was bigger Yuengling has probably outgrown them this year and if not willdefinitely do that next year.

 

[Bubba_Mustafa]

Boston Beer Company, which owns and operates Sam Adams beer, is trying to hold on to their official designation as a "craft beer," as the New York Times reported.

?? I thought BMC (one of them) owned Sam Adams.
Ever notice how the ads NEVER use the "bland dull American beers" anymore? Can't bash yourself.