Saison Recipe Critique. Dry, fruity, funky, crushable.

[Tyler Hurst]

hey all. First off thank you to everyone who gives any feedback, this community means a lot to me. So I have been making saisons for quite a while and I’m really playing with yeast ideas and need help with hops ratios/schedules. I’m looking to make a hoppy saison and I don’t know how much to use while keeping saison style/taste without becoming too bitter. Also I was recommended to use a combination of Wyeast 3724 (I love this strain and have used it many times) and WLP565 (used once) but I’m also contemplating adding some oak cubes that I have which contain Sacc Trois and Brett C? Here’s the recipe. Fermentation and mash temps and water treatment recommendations also appreciated!
Grist:
4lbs Pilsner
3 lbs pale wheat
1 lbs flaked oats
1 lbs American Rye
1 lbs Munich (12 L)
1 lbs German Spelt
Step mash
148 for 30 mins
154 for 30 mins
170 for 10 mins
90 min boil
Hops:
.25 oz horizon @ 90 mins
.75 oz pacific jade @ whirlpool
(I’d like to add some Simcoe and Amarillo but don’t know how much and when)
Yeast:
WLP565
1.5 oz Sac Trois & Brett Clausenii oak cubes
Wyeast 3724
(Should I stagger the pitch? Which one first, what attenuation to add for second pitch if so? [I have a tilt hydrometer] and should I forgo the cubes?)
Water: distilled (looking for any feedback for salt additions)
Estimated OG: 1.056

 

[thehaze]

My thoughts would be skip the step mash, just do a single infusion at 147-159F. The grain bill looks OK, albeit very busy. The beer will turn out equally good just by using 75% Pilsner and 25% Wheat or Spelt. 30-40 IBUs, whirlpool 3-4 oz hops and add 3 oz more in the dry hop. If you are trying to go for the hoppy Saison, I would leave the cubes out of the equation. There is a chance the flavours imparted by the cubes will either interfere /muddle (with) the hop profile, or cover it up to some degree.

Water treatment: it really comes down to your own preference, but 25-50 ppm Ca, 0-10 ppm Mg, 0-5 ppm Na, 25-50 ppm Cl, 50-100 ppm SO4 will work fine. Mash pH 5.2, post boil pH closer to 5.

Fermentation: Wyeast 3724 goes up to 95F, so cool the wort to around 68-70F, pitch 3724, let it free rise, pitch French Saison yeast after 48 hours of active fermentation. Dry hop for 2-3 days before packaging. Cold crash for 24 hours if you can.

PS: Amarillo and Simcoe together can really push some light tropical fruit notes, grapefruit/tangeringe flavours, with maybe a touch of earthiness from Simcoe. So it's up to you if you believe these flavours can work together with the yeast profile.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Where are you trying to go with this beer? Close your eyes and describe the aroma and flavour you're trying to get. Saison's a very broad style. You can go with a prominent late hop and/or dry hop (although I wouldn't personally go anywhere near the levels thehaze mentioned - that looks more like an IPA with saison yeast to me), which can be fruity/piney (new world) or floral/spicy (eg. Styrian Goldings). What flavours are you after when you say 'hoppy'?

 

[Tyler Hurst]

My thoughts would be skip the step mash, just do a single infusion at 147-159F. The grain bill looks OK, albeit very busy. The beer will turn out equally good just by using 75% Pilsner and 25% Wheat or Spelt. 30-40 IBUs, whirlpool 3-4 oz hops and add 3 oz more in the dry hop. If you are trying to go for the hoppy Saison, I would leave the cubes out of the equation. There is a chance the flavours imparted by the cubes will either interfere /muddle (with) the hop profile, or cover it up to some degree.

Water treatment: it really comes down to your own preference, but 25-50 ppm Ca, 0-10 ppm Mg, 0-5 ppm Na, 25-50 ppm Cl, 50-100 ppm SO4 will work fine. Mash pH 5.2, post boil pH closer to 5.

Fermentation: Wyeast 3724 goes up to 95F, so cool the wort to around 68-70F, pitch 3724, let it free rise, pitch French Saison yeast after 48 hours of active fermentation. Dry hop for 2-3 days before packaging. Cold crash for 24 hours if you can.

PS: Amarillo and Simcoe together can really push some light tropical fruit notes, grapefruit/tangeringe flavours, with maybe a touch of earthiness from Simcoe. So it's up to you if you believe these flavours can work together with the yeast profile.

This is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for. Thank you so much

 

[Tyler Hurst]

Where are you trying to go with this beer? Close your eyes and describe the aroma and flavour you're trying to get. Saison's a very broad style. You can go with a prominent late hop and/or dry hop (although I wouldn't personally go anywhere near the levels thehaze mentioned - that looks more like an IPA with saison yeast to me), which can be fruity/piney (new world) or floral/spicy (eg. Styrian Goldings). What flavours are you after when you say 'hoppy'?

So I love the flavors I get when I drink a straight Saison but had a “hoppy Saison” at one of my local breweries which I ended up getting a growler of, and my family loved so I’m making this for our family beach vacation. I love the slight sweet/citrus flavors and earthy notes with hints of spice. I love the way they drink and remain smooth with hop flavor but low bitterness. So I do agree with use of hops which impart citrus flavor and hopefully low amounts of pine (although I do have some chinook lying around) which dry hopping and whirlpooling impart for low bitterness. Whirlpool and dry hop additions should be low bitterness more aroma/flavor as long as the AA are relatively low.
The yeast selection was info from maltose falcons which say combining these two yeasts (3724 and 565) give all the flavors and character of a traditional saison.

 

[Tyler Hurst]

Upon closer inspection I think I’ll do whirlpool and dry hop with Amarillo and el dorado.