Saison Mashing - single infusion or multi step ?

[rwing7486]

Hey everyone planning on brewing a saison this weekend and wanted some feedback for suggested mash schedule for the recipe below. I have been going back and forth on the two schedules below:

1) Step mash
122 - 30 min
140 -- 60 min
158 -- 20 min

or

2) Single infusion mash (no mash out) 148 @ 90 minutes

Based on my recipe will I really gain anything from adding the alpha and beta protein rests? I am including some corn sugar to ensure I get the dryness i need and to have plenty of fermentable sugars. I am leaning toward the single sach rest but I was hoping for some feedback as I am always open to other suggestions

8lbs Dingmans Pilsen
12oz Briess American Rye
8oz Munich 10
8oz German wheat
8oz Corn Sugar (added last 20 minutes of boil)
4oz CaraMunich

0.5oz Mosaic @ 60 minutes
0.5oz Mosaic @ 15 miniutes
1oz Mosaic @ flameout

1pack rehydrated Belle Saison

Ferment 48 hours at 65F
Place fermenter on brewers mat and let ferment for 12 days @ 80F

 

[Lyger10]

I'm brewing one this weekend as well, and I'm going with the Single Infusion 149 @ 60.

3 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 30.0 %
3 lbs Wheat - White Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 2 30.0 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 3 15.0 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Vienna Malt (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 4 15.0 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (Briess) (1.4 SRM) Grain 5 10.0 %
0.25 oz Sorachi Ace [13.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 6 12.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Fuggle [4.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 5.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Fuggle [4.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 3.8 IBUs
1.20 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 9 -
0.90 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 10 -
0.50 oz Seeds of Paradise (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 11 -
1.0 pkg French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [50.28 ml] Yeast 12 - w/ Starter

Let me know what you end up going with. Good luck!

 

[rwing7486]

I'm brewing one this weekend as well, and I'm going with the Single Infusion 149 @ 60.

3 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 30.0 %
3 lbs Wheat - White Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 2 30.0 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 3 15.0 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Vienna Malt (Briess) (3.5 SRM) Grain 4 15.0 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (Briess) (1.4 SRM) Grain 5 10.0 %
0.25 oz Sorachi Ace [13.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 6 12.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Fuggle [4.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 7 5.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Fuggle [4.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 8 3.8 IBUs
1.20 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 10.0 mins) Other 9 -
0.90 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 10 -
0.50 oz Seeds of Paradise (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 11 -
1.0 pkg French Saison (Wyeast Labs #3711) [50.28 ml] Yeast 12 - w/ Starter

Let me know what you end up going with. Good luck!

Let me know how the orange peel works out. I was debating of using 0.5 oz of sweet orange peel in mine but decided to not use to see if I like this recipe on its own first.

 

[bigdongsr94]

I brewed similar last weekend. I did a single, 90 minute. I had 3724 to reuse. The more I read the more people say that 90min mash is as important as temp for a dry finish. I would go with the single infusion. I'm no saison expert but have had great luck with that previously. My recent saison I went with mosaic. I kinda just go with what is available but I am optimistic about mosiac. I think it will go well. I have done as much as 15% rye this time I did about 15% Munich. Next I may try some Vienna as I have not thrown that in a saison yet. I'm a hop head but saisons are a sweet tooth. So nice and smooth. Little peppery. Makes me thirsty.

 

[mbobhat]

Also if you're looking for pretty dry, a possible suggestion is to go a little less water per lb grain ( such as 1.25 qt per lb) to keep the enzymes from denaturing as long as possible. I think that 148 can still denature beta after a pretty short time, but you need it that high so that the starch can gelatinize otherwise it wont have anything to chew on. Cheers

 

[rwing7486]

Also if you're looking for pretty dry, a possible suggestion is to go a little less water per lb grain ( such as 1.25 qt per lb) to keep the enzymes from denaturing as long as possible. I think that 148 can still denature beta after a pretty short time, but you need it that high so that the starch can gelatinize otherwise it wont have anything to chew on. Cheers

I am planning on keeping my water to grist ratio at 1.25 as I am using RO water and this puts my estimated room temp mash pH at 5.43 - this should yield an actual mash pH around 5.2

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Since you're using fully modified malts and you're looking for a dry finish, I highly recommend my step mash schedule for Saison:

140F for 20 minutes
152F for 45 minutes
168F for 10 minutes

I use this for my Saisons, and it dries out nicely, with good mouthfeel.

Do not mash below 140F. The malts you listed are fully modified, and any protein or beta-glucanase rests can diminish your head retention and/or give a thin (not dry), watery mouthfeel.

For single infusion, I'd recommend 90 minutes at 147F. Why no mashout?

 

[rwing7486]

Since you're using fully modified malts and you're looking for a dry finish, I highly recommend my step mash schedule for Saison:

140F for 20 minutes
152F for 45 minutes
168F for 10 minutes

I use this for my Saisons, and it dries out nicely, with good mouthfeel.

Do not mash below 140F. The malts you listed are fully modified, and any protein or beta-glucanase rests can diminish your head retention and/or give a thin (not dry), watery mouthfeel.

For single infusion, I'd recommend 90 minutes at 147F. Why no mashout?

I think that schedule is doable in my mash tun cooler. I will just have to start with a very thick mash (around 0.75 quart/lb) and calculate what volumes at what temps raise my mash to the desired mash temp. The reason I do not mash out is that my current process I currently have an efficiency of 78% and am always with in 0.01 of my targeted OG when re brewing recipes so I do not see a reason for me to start mashing out. After my mash time is completed i drain the mash tun into the kettle and then add my first sparge addition of 170 degree water. I usually split my sparge into two additions.

 

[jmitchell3]

147-148 for 90 mins will work well.

for the step mash I'd suggest 122/145/155/170. 140 is likely too low for a saccharification rest. 155-158 will give you the additional bump you're looking for.

I've done the protein rest at 122 for half a dozen batches and have not noticed any foam or body degradation compared to my single infusion mashes.

(Warning: Opinion ahead->) From my reading and study I think 1) people don't really know how the lower temp beta/protein rests work on highly modified malt...really.... and 2) that its likely longer stands (30+ mins) at this lower temp on highly modified malts may be detrimental and that shorter rests (10-20 mins) might still be beneficial to the end product. Again, haven't seen hard evidence for either pro or con position yet, but those are my opinions and opinions that I've seen from others based on more experience than I currently have!

 

[atom]

i find no need for a step mash for saisons. using belle saison you'll have no issue drying out by mashing low.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

I think that schedule is doable in my mash tun cooler. I will just have to start with a very thick mash (around 0.75 quart/lb) and calculate what volumes at what temps raise my mash to the desired mash temp. The reason I do not mash out is that my current process I currently have an efficiency of 78% and am always with in 0.01 of my targeted OG when re brewing recipes so I do not see a reason for me to start mashing out. After my mash time is completed i drain the mash tun into the kettle and then add my first sparge addition of 170 degree water. I usually split my sparge into two additions.

I see. If you've got something that works, stick to it. Mashing in thick and adding infusions will work.

 

[rwing7486]

I see. If you've got something that works, stick to it. Mashing in thick and adding infusions will work.

How much of a benefit will i see doing a step mash that you have listed vs a single infusion at 147?

 

[edroberts]

I've done both on my Saison. One traditional all-grain, single infusion and one stepped BIAB with a 20 min protein rest. The later has a more rounded flavor than my single infusion batch.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

for the step mash I'd suggest 122/145/155/170. 140 is likely too low for a saccharification rest. 155-158 will give you the additional bump you're looking for.

This isn't entirely true. 140F is in beta amylase range, which is between 130F - 150F. Beta activity is somewhat slow at this temp, so between 10 and 20 minutes is sufficient for a productive beta rest. Also, 122F is in both proteinase and peptidase territory, and that's not recommended for fully modified malts. I have covered the topic of modified malts, protein rests, and multiple saccharification rests quite thoroughly in another thread located here. It may help clear up confusion in this thread.

I've done the protein rest at 122 for half a dozen batches and have not noticed any foam or body degradation compared to my single infusion mashes.

I mean no offense, but that is purely anecdotal. The science shows that further degradation of proteins with a protein rest on fully modified malts is detrimental to body and head retention. Perhaps you didn't notice it in your beer, but that's your palate, and it's not testable data. Again, the ol' homebrewing mantra of "do what works best for you!" applies here. I can't tell you that you didn't like a beer after using an ill advised mash step.

(Warning: Opinion ahead->) From my reading and study I think 1) people don't really know how the lower temp beta/protein rests work on highly modified malt...really.... and 2) that its likely longer stands (30+ mins) at this lower temp on highly modified malts may be detrimental and that shorter rests (10-20 mins) might still be beneficial to the end product. Again, haven't seen hard evidence for either pro or con position yet, but those are my opinions and opinions that I've seen from others based on more experience than I currently have!

1) Not true. It's understood fairly well, and the principles are in use in breweries around the world. I always avoid protein rests when step mashing fully modified malts, and would never recommend anyone else to do one with modified malts either. I often use beta amylase rests as part of a step mash with fully modified malts both at home and in commercial breweries with great results. My mashing schedules are derived from scientific publications and many years of trials testing these principles.
2) I tend to agree. I wouldn't go much more than 20 minutes at 140F. I start the ramp to my next rest at about 17 or 18 minutes into the beta.

There are plenty of opinions out there, but a lot of this stuff is objective. There is plenty of peer reviewed science to support the mash schedule example I gave, along with empirical feedback on my product. I think where opinion is most important is that you do what you're comfortable with, and what produces your favorite results. That's the beauty of homebrewing!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

How much of a benefit will i see doing a step mash that you have listed vs a single infusion at 147?

It's really mostly a mouthfeel thing. It won't affect the flavor much if at all, but it can help increase attenuation while keeping a nice body. Myself and several other brewers notice a slight increase in extract efficiency when using a step mash as well. Single infusion mashes work just fine for Saison, but I've had some single infusion mashed examples that were drier than a popcorn fart, with no appreciable mouthfeel complexity. I'm not saying that either is better than the other, and, in my experience, a lot of people can't even tell the difference. Ultimately, I'd recommend doing both and seeing what you think.

 

[rwing7486]

It's really mostly a mouthfeel thing. It won't affect the flavor much if at all, but it can help increase attenuation while keeping a nice body. Myself and several other brewers notice a slight increase in extract efficiency when using a step mash as well. Single infusion mashes work just fine for Saison, but I've had some single infusion mashed examples that were drier than a popcorn fart, with no appreciable mouthfeel complexity. I'm not saying that either is better than the other, and, in my experience, a lot of people can't even tell the difference. Ultimately, I'd recommend doing both and seeing what you think.

Hahaha im dying at that popcorn fart line. I might give the step a try since I have never done it for a saison before.

 

[jmitchell3]

This isn't entirely true. 140F is in beta amylase range, which is between 130F - 150F. Beta activity is somewhat slow at this temp, so between 10 and 20 minutes is sufficient for a productive beta rest. Also, 122F is in both proteinase and peptidase territory, and that's not recommended for fully modified malts. I have covered the topic of modified malts, protein rests, and multiple saccharification rests quite thoroughly in another thread located here. It may help clear up confusion in this thread.



I mean no offense, but that is purely anecdotal. The science shows that further degradation of proteins with a protein rest on fully modified malts is detrimental to body and head retention. Perhaps you didn't notice it in your beer, but that's your palate, and it's not testable data. Again, the ol' homebrewing mantra of "do what works best for you!" applies here. I can't tell you that you didn't like a beer after using an ill advised mash step.


1) Not true. It's understood fairly well, and the principles are in use in breweries around the world. I always avoid protein rests when step mashing fully modified malts, and would never recommend anyone else to do one with modified malts either. I often use beta amylase rests as part of a step mash with fully modified malts both at home and in commercial breweries with great results. My mashing schedules are derived from scientific publications and many years of trials testing these principles.
2) I tend to agree. I wouldn't go much more than 20 minutes at 140F. I start the ramp to my next rest at about 17 or 18 minutes into the beta.

There are plenty of opinions out there, but a lot of this stuff is objective. There is plenty of peer reviewed science to support the mash schedule example I gave, along with empirical feedback on my product. I think where opinion is most important is that you do what you're comfortable with, and what produces your favorite results. That's the beauty of homebrewing!

Well you certainly have more experience than I, and I'm a big fan of disclaiming my own opinion, which is basically useless for the most part!

At the end of the day, perception is king irrespective of the science, IMHO.

Relating to your citation of scientific publications...that's great and I'm a big fan of actual scientific studies, so I'll take that into consideration for my own brewing.

However, malt varies, maltsers vary, and what goes into each of our mash tuns isn't even the same malt from one batch to the next let alone one malt type to the next. So not sure if there is enough science to call it "settled". Same is true with many other areas...in the big scheme of things, we've had more science based on more data in the last few decades than ever before, but man has been brewing for many many multiples of that length of time. Call me a mash-skeptic!

I tend to give opinion based on experience some credit, science more credit, and to take all sources with several grains of salt. Maybe the brulosophy guys will do an exbeeriment on this if they haven't already, and add some more homebrew-level pseudoscience and perception analysis to the mix!

 

[jmitchell3]

This isn't entirely true. 140F is in beta amylase range, which is between 130F - 150F. Beta activity is somewhat slow at this temp, so between 10 and 20 minutes is sufficient for a productive beta rest. Also, 122F is in both proteinase and peptidase territory, and that's not recommended for fully modified malts. I have covered the topic of modified malts, protein rests, and multiple saccharification rests quite thoroughly in another thread located here. It may help clear up confusion in this thread.



I mean no offense, but that is purely anecdotal. The science shows that further degradation of proteins with a protein rest on fully modified malts is detrimental to body and head retention. Perhaps you didn't notice it in your beer, but that's your palate, and it's not testable data. Again, the ol' homebrewing mantra of "do what works best for you!" applies here. I can't tell you that you didn't like a beer after using an ill advised mash step.


1) Not true. It's understood fairly well, and the principles are in use in breweries around the world. I always avoid protein rests when step mashing fully modified malts, and would never recommend anyone else to do one with modified malts either. I often use beta amylase rests as part of a step mash with fully modified malts both at home and in commercial breweries with great results. My mashing schedules are derived from scientific publications and many years of trials testing these principles.
2) I tend to agree. I wouldn't go much more than 20 minutes at 140F. I start the ramp to my next rest at about 17 or 18 minutes into the beta.

There are plenty of opinions out there, but a lot of this stuff is objective. There is plenty of peer reviewed science to support the mash schedule example I gave, along with empirical feedback on my product. I think where opinion is most important is that you do what you're comfortable with, and what produces your favorite results. That's the beauty of homebrewing!

Ok, read your other post, which was well put btw. You included this line:

"Results will vary from different maltsters and even different lot numbers from the same maltster, but you have to ask yourself "should I?" rather than "can I?"​

which spoke to my point in the previous post, and yeah you are correct in the idea of "playing the odds".

I'll have to try your "mash in at 140 then step" method for the next half dozen batches and see how it does...

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Well you certainly have more experience than I, and I'm a big fan of disclaiming my own opinion, which is basically useless for the most part!

Hey, at least you disclaim your opinion as such! Too many people here proclaim their opinions as fact, and that hurts the homebrewing community.

At the end of the day, perception is king irrespective of the science, IMHO.

I disagree, but it's a matter of opinion which you prioritize. I think following solid science will lead to better and better perception, not the other way around.

Relating to your citation of scientific publications...that's great and I'm a big fan of actual scientific studies, so I'll take that into consideration for my own brewing.

Great! More information never hurt. Use Google Scholar to search for brewing topics and go from there.

However, malt varies, maltsers vary, and what goes into each of our mash tuns isn't even the same malt from one batch to the next let alone one malt type to the next. So not sure if there is enough science to call it "settled". Same is true with many other areas...in the big scheme of things, we've had more science based on more data in the last few decades than ever before, but man has been brewing for many many multiples of that length of time. Call me a mash-skeptic!

See, this isn't the right way to look at it. I'm a born skeptic, too, so I understand. Malts, malting technology, and mashing science have exploded in the past decade. Instead of saying, "well all this is new and I'm not yet convinced, so I'll just keep doing what we did before," embrace the change and you'll likely notice an increase in quality of your product. Malts are different now, treat them that way!

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Ok, read your other post, which was well put btw. You included this line:

"Results will vary from different maltsters and even different lot numbers from the same maltster, but you have to ask yourself "should I?" rather than "can I?"​

which spoke to my point in the previous post, and yeah you are correct in the idea of "playing the odds".

I'll have to try your "mash in at 140 then step" method for the next half dozen batches and see how it does...

Cool. Happy brewing!

 

[HausBrauerei_Harvey]

I have been refining my saison recipe for over a year (8 batches now). I mash at 147 for 90-120 minutes, use WLP 565 and always get it to finish at 1.002-1.000.

Cheers and enjoy the Saison, it's a great style to play around with.

 

[rwing7486]

Quick update on my brew day: I ended up mashing with the mash schedule below. Reason for the 4 different steps is because when adding my additional water @ 200F to raise from 140 to 152 the water must have cooled while pouring. I believe this was due from the size of the pot I was using because as the water came in contact with the inner wall of the pot that was not in contact with the water it dropped the temp down. I switched to a smaller pot for the other water additions to raise my temp and it seemed to be much more effective.

140F @ 30 minutes
148F @ 30 minutes
154F @ 30 minutes
162F @ 15 minutes

Post boil I had just over 5 gallons into the fermenter with a SG of 1.060. I pitched the yeast at 68 degrees F and has been at this temp for 2 days now. I have the fermenter sitting on a brewers mat which i plan to plug in 72 hours from the time I pitched the yeast. Just for my sanity is waiting 3 days to raise the temp sufficient to prevent "excessive" or "volatile" phenols from forming? or would it be OK to start raising the temp after 48 hours of fermentation?

 

[bigdongsr94]

I did about 36 hours later. Tasting now. I only fermented about 15 days. On gas now. Needs a little time but is great already. The mosiac hop and Belgian 3724 pairs pretty good but there is more time to tell.

 

[Nhendric]

Since you're using fully modified malts and you're looking for a dry finish, I highly recommend my step mash schedule for Saison:

140F for 20 minutes
152F for 45 minutes
168F for 10 minutes

I use this for my Saisons, and it dries out nicely, with good mouthfeel.

Do not mash below 140F. The malts you listed are fully modified, and any protein or beta-glucanase rests can diminish your head retention and/or give a thin (not dry), watery mouthfeel.

For single infusion, I'd recommend 90 minutes at 147F. Why no mashout?

If you were to make this into an overnight mash, what.timeframe would you do for each? Assume 12 hrs

 

[GoodTruble]

You are replying to a thread from 6 years ago. =c)