saison/farmhouse ale - thoughts on this recipe?

[MarkyMark33]

am looking to make a low abv farmhouse/saison .. not to be not the sour side but with some subtle sweetness.

10.5 - german pilsner
.25 - wheat malt
.75 - honey malt
.75 - munich malt

1.75 - hallertau hops pellets - at beginning of boil
.75 - hallertau hops pellets - at flame out

liquid yeast - wlp565 belgian saison

mash - 147 degree - 90 minutes
90 minute boil

do i need to add cane sugar? as was reading that it will help with fermentability?

this is my first attempt at a saison? i would like to lower the abv if i could but still keeping to a good tasting saison... reduce the amount of pilsner? lowering the abv would please my mother in law.

please advise!

 

[eulipion2]

Mashing at 147, this wort will be plenty fermentable without adding cane sugar. You'll probably finish pretty low, say around 1.002. I usually mash my saisons around 150-154, and still end up pretty dry.

I have two session saisons in my dropdown that are under 4% ABV. They're pretty dry, but you could try mashing a little higher. For this recipe, reduce the pilsner and up the Munich malt to a couple pounds. It'll increase "maltiness," but may not really add much sweetness. Honey malt is easy to overdo, especially in a lighter style like a saison. 4-8 ounces to start might be better.

Just spitballing.

 

[Calder]

Honey malt has no place in a Saison. Yeast should be the showcase, and Honey Malt will over-power it.

Drop the sugar and mash low for a low abv Saison.

 

[MarkyMark33]

appreciate the feedbacks.. i will just go ahead with what i have as today is a brew day.

calder - honey malt.. was advised that it will make it a bit less sour.. i like em sour but am making this for my inlaws. what i will do is my next saison batch i leave out honey malt.

eulipion2 - i will reduce the pilsner next time and up the munich.

will be nice to have another kind of saison for comparison and etc.

 

[eulipion2]

calder - honey malt.. was advised that it will make it a bit less sour.. i like em sour but am making this for my inlaws. what i will do is my next saison batch i leave out honey malt.

I think there's a slight misunderstanding of the saison style here. They can have some tartness, but with a pure pitch of a saison strain (without "wild" elements), you're more likely to get fruity and spicy notes. It's more like a crispness than a tartness.

I think the BJCP guidelines say low to moderate tartness, but I've never really experienced that in either commercial or homebrewed saisons that weren't intentionally soured.

 

[m00ps]

I agree with eulipion, you aren't going to have any sourness in anything that doesnt have brett, some other bacteria, or a very large amount of acidulated malt. I think you could use a bit of honey malt if you wanted. Saisons are my favorite style and here are my general guidelines. I usually like them 6-8% abv
- have 0.5-1.0 cane sugar, syrup or actual honey
- mash 147-148 for 75min (ive never found doing 90 helps any more)
- have less than 1.0lb of specialty malts, this is key to get that crisp saison body
- have at least 2lb of wheat for a rocky head
- pitch at 65 and either let it free rise or crank it up 5 degrees per day up to 90s

 

[b-boy]

I think the some of the tartness may be due to addition of bitter orange peels in a lot of recipes. I get the tartness in mine, but I attribute it to the added ingredients.

 

[beergolf]

you aren't going to have any sourness in anything that doesnt have brett

Brett does not create sourness. Other bacteria does.

 

[Coff]

You obviously brewed this beer already so no point in commenting on the recipe itself, ok I will, I would have increased the Wheat and Munich and dropped the Honey Malt.

But you still have a lot of work to do, WLP565 can be a very finicky strain if you dont manage the fermentation temps correctly. I like to pitch at 68f and raise the temp incrementally each day all the way up to 90f, if you dont give this a good temp rise at the right time it could stall at 1.020. If it does, just grab a pitch of 3711 or Belle Saison and that should finish it off.

 

[MarkyMark33]

update - my saison is fermenting nicely as i checked this am.. its in an enclosed room and temp in that room is 63 degree so i turned on the heater this morning to go up to 75 degree. i can make the room warmer too. advise on that??

i hope i read the hydrometer correctly it shows 1.06 original gravity.

this was also the first time i did 3 tier gravity with use of ladder, table and etc.. plan on building a a brew ladder or 3 tier wood sculpture. found this set up makes for a smoother brew day. allowed me to sparge for almost an hour without trouble.

next time i will reduce the grain bill to make it a lower abv session saison.

 

[m00ps]

update - my saison is fermenting nicely as i checked this am.. its in an enclosed room and temp in that room is 63 degree so i turned on the heater this morning to go up to 75 degree. i can make the room warmer too. advise on that??

i hope i read the hydrometer correctly it shows 1.06 original gravity.

this was also the first time i did 3 tier gravity with use of ladder, table and etc.. plan on building a a brew ladder or 3 tier wood sculpture. found this set up makes for a smoother brew day. allowed me to sparge for almost an hour without trouble.

next time i will reduce the grain bill to make it a lower abv session saison.

Yeah I would strongly advise ramping the temp up. I've found that every saison strain I;ve used likes hot (not just warm) temps. WLP565 almost needs to hit the 90s to finish and with the other strains it really brings out that peppery fruitiness that saisons are known for. Check out the fermentation regimen I think I mentioned above

 

[zachattack]

While it's certainly not sour, I've found that the Dupont yeast (3724) will definitely add a very pleasant twang to the beer, a tiny bit of lactic bite. I don't think I'm the only one to experience this.

This strain is the classic farmhouse ale yeast. A traditional yeast that is spicy with complex aromatics, including bubble gum. It is very tart and dry on the palate with a mild fruitiness. Expect a crisp, mildly acidic finish that will benefit from elevated fermentation temperatures.

 

[MarkyMark33]

i doubt i can get the room up to 90 in the low 80s i will try my best. the brew shop told me 75 be ok for fermenting.

mark

 

[zachattack]

i doubt i can get the room up to 90 in the low 80s i will try my best. the brew shop told me 75 be ok for fermenting.

mark

Mine stuck at 85 degrees. Took 2 more weeks at 95 to get it to finish, but it was worth it. Try a tub of water and a $15 aquarium heater, way less wasteful than warming up the whole room.

 

[eulipion2]

Honestly, if you get stuck at any temperature, it's tons easier, and probably better for the beer, to just pitch a pack of either Wyeast 3711 French Saison or Lallemand Belle Saison. Neither of those strains need to go higher than 75 to attenuate fully. Usually they'll still finish out under 70.

 

[m00ps]

Honestly, if you get stuck at any temperature, it's tons easier, and probably better for the beer, to just pitch a pack of either Wyeast 3711 French Saison or Lallemand Belle Saison. Neither of those strains need to go higher than 75 to attenuate fully. Usually they'll still finish out under 70.

Yeah that seems to be the most common remedy. But I've found that those higher temps really get that saison yeast to do its thing with the esters. Belle saisom and 3711 both list like 70 something as their max temp. Rubbish. I've cranked both of those up past 90

 

[eulipion2]

Yeah that seems to be the most common remedy. But I've found that those higher temps really get that saison yeast to do its thing with the esters. Belle saisom and 3711 both list like 70 something as their max temp. Rubbish. I've cranked both of those up past 90

It's true that pretty much any yeast can ferment well up into the 90s, but that doesn't mean you have to (or should). 3711 gives plenty of saison character at 70, and if added after another strain stalls it won't produce much of its own flavor anyway, regardless of temp.

 

[m00ps]

I'm just saying if you crank it up to 90, it won't stall and you won't have to buy extra yeast.

Yeah any yeast can go up to 90, but saison strains are the pretty much the only ones that won't be offensive at those temperatures. Most yeasts would make a beer taste like liquefied band aids at 90

 

[therainmaker]

You can also try a brew belt or ferm wrap. But definitely ramp that temp up.

I did an experiment with a Saison done at a steady 70 and one that was ramped up to 85 (same wort). While the 70 had some Saison character, it didn't dry out and didn't have the esters from the yeast.

Make what you like. You can have a drinkable Saison at a lower ferm temp, but understand you can also risk bottle bombs as the yeast will continue to slowly eat the residual sugars once bottled.

 

[m00ps]

You can also try a brew belt or ferm wrap. But definitely ramp that temp up.

I did an experiment with a Saison done at a steady 70 and one that was ramped up to 85 (same wort). While the 70 had some Saison character, it didn't dry out and didn't have the esters from the yeast.

Make what you like. You can have a drinkable Saison at a lower ferm temp, but understand you can also risk bottle bombs as the yeast will continue to slowly eat the residual sugars once bottled.

Nice experiment! For future reference, did the 70f one have more spicy flavor and 85f was more fruity? Like most Belgians? Or was the 85f just more saison character and flavor entirely?

 

[MarkyMark33]

Update - still fermenting well.. Using blow off. Room temp is around 78 now.. Hope can get over 80 soon. Am using a portable room heater. Wil see how it turns out.

Question is - plan to leave in carboy for at least two weeks before I measure the FG. Or should I consider leaving it in longer?? Maybe the temp I am fermenting at will be the beer to my in laws' liking as they want some subtle sweetness in their beers.

 

[MarkyMark33]

At what FG reading would I know it s ready to bottle. I don't have the recipe on beersmith in front of me I think it said néed FG reading of 1.02

 

[m00ps]

You can't really give an estimate because it depends on mash temp yeast strain fermentation temp and other stuff. If its steady for 3 days or so I'll bottle

 

[youreanimpulse]

With 565 I'd give it more than 3 days. It often slows down at the end. My last one ended up at 1.006. It definitely got to 85 at least, great yeast profile.

 

[therainmaker]

With 565 I'd give it more than 3 days. It often slows down at the end. My last one ended up at 1.006. It definitely got to 85 at least, great yeast profile.

This. I've had the strain stall for almost 2 weeks at 80 plus before finishing out. If you know you have the fermentables, I wouldn't bottle it until it's at least at 1.006 or less. I've used a 147 degree mash with 10 percent sugar and fermented at 70, ramped to 80 and then 85 and finished at 1.002

 

[therainmaker]

Nice experiment! For future reference, did the 70f one have more spicy flavor and 85f was more fruity? Like most Belgians? Or was the 85f just more saison character and flavor entirely?

The 70 degree one was actually much fruiter and less peppery spicy "saisony" esters, as well as being a touch sweeter due to less attenuation.

Saisons are my thing, love brewing them, easily do 15 to 2 dozen 10 gallon batches a year.

I plan on doing an experiment next year with both pitching rates of yeast and ferment temp. Under pitch, standard pitch, over pitch along with 70,80,and 85 degree temps

 

[MarkyMark33]

hey guys -

long overdue... the saison came out excellent... i felt the taste was spot on in what a saison should be. it was quite a hit with my family and friends especially for those who are not into hoppy and or bitter beers. they found it to be a good refreshing beer.... 6.8 abv.

will definitely make it again sticking with the same grain bill... to see if i can make the beer tastes the same consistently.

to make the process easier will build a three tier stand.

stay thirsty my friends!

 

[joshesmusica]

what was the batch size? i'm trying to replicate it because I want to try a saison soon (my LHBS just got a norwegian farmhouse strain mass produced by white labs), but to get the same abv i've got it going with 5 gallons.
also on beersmith it's got the strain you used only getting down to 1.015. do people have better experience with getting wlp565 to attenuate better than expected?
here's the new yeast strain that i've been thinking would be cool to use:
http://www.bryggselv.no/products/wlp6788-norwegian-farmhouse-ale