Saison Brett

[Brett3rThanU]

I'm looking to make a second attempt at a Saison Brett now that I know where I screwed up last time, but just want some confirmation.

8.5 lb pilsner
1 lb Vienna
1 lb Munich
1 oz Amarillo @ 60
1 oz Amarillo @ 15
1 oz Amarillo @ 0

Last time I Mashed at 152 and used 3711, then added Brett B to the secondary. Needless to say the 3711 did most of the work and not much was left for the brett so even after a year there was little to no funk. This time I plan to mash at 158 and use 3724 which should leave plenty for the brett b in the secondary. Thoughts? I'm going to for heavy barnyard/horse blanket / Funky flavor.

 

[jnacey]

If you're looking for more funk in a recipe like this, I would recommend doing a ferulic acid rest. Before you do your regular sacc rest, do a 15 minute rest at 113f. This is a rest that's common in hefeweizens in order to encourage a clove-like character through the formation of 4-vinyl-guaiacol. The brett will metabolize this and form 4-ethyl-guaiacol which is a pleasant brett funkiness.

I've started doing this on almost all of my brett beers and they turn out wonderful. Leaving residual sugars is one pathway to brett flavors, but creating the right precursor compounds is important, as well.

 

[Brett3rThanU]

Unfortunately I don't have that much control over my system so I can really only do a single infusion mash. Without a ferulic acid rest do you think I'll still accomplish what I'm after?

 

[robotinc]

Why not pitch the Brett at the same time as the Sacc to give it access to more sugars?

 

[m00ps]

whats preventing you from doing an additional rest? I do BIAB on my stove and I thought I was stuck with single step mashes. But if I straddle my kettle/mash tun over 2 burners at max, I can get it to go up 40-50 deg in less than 10 min

 

[Brett3rThanU]

I was under the impression that adding brett to the secondary stresses it more and would provide more funk. I'm only about 30 pages into the American Sour Beer book though


I mash in a cooler, so I do a single infusion. It would be a huge pain in the ass to start the mash at 115F, then add additional water to bring the mash up to actual temp.

 

[allouez86]

I typically get plenty of funk even if the beer is already below 1.008 when the brett is pitched. I typically mash between 148-150 for my brett saisons as well. Occasionally I'll mash higher but usually it's around 148. If you don't want to do a ferulic acid rest, I'd suggest pitching the brett when the beer has reached approximately 1.020 and if you're using 3724 then there is a chance that it will stall around 1.020-1.030 so I would pitch the brett then. You could also pitch the brett when you pitch your saison yeast if you don't want to have to worry about checking up on the beer to see when it reaches 1.020. This will most likely give you the funk you're looking for.

 

[TheZymurgist]

I was under the impression that adding brett to the secondary stresses it more and would provide more funk. I'm only about 30 pages into the American Sour Beer book though


I mash in a cooler, so I do a single infusion. It would be a huge pain in the ass to start the mash at 115F, then add additional water to bring the mash up to actual temp.

If you compromise and do a ferulic acid rest and a lower mash temp, it wouldn't be difficult at all. Start with a 1qt/lb mash at 113º, with 10.5 pounds of grain, you'll only need to add 6.5 quarts of boiling water to get to 147º.

That's something I'm going to be experimenting with this year.

 

[Brett3rThanU]

If you compromise and do a ferulic acid rest and a lower mash temp, it wouldn't be difficult at all. Start with a 1qt/lb mash at 113º, with 10.5 pounds of grain, you'll only need to add 6.5 quarts of boiling water to get to 147º.

That's something I'm going to be experimenting with this year.

Do you think that's more beneficial than a higher mash temp?

 

[TheZymurgist]

Do you think that's more beneficial than a higher mash temp?

That I can't say definitively. Someone else with more experience will need to chime in, but I plan on doing two semi-side-by-side batches this year to test the effect.

 

[edroberts]

I've had more success in racking to secondary after high krausen rather than pitching on top of the saison yeast. Using brett is like sitting at a family dinner. If you don't eat fast, you don't eat much. Get rid of much of that hungry saison yeast by racking to secondary. I've also noticed a BIG difference if I pitch a higher brett population. Of course, you still need a few months on the brett and then bottle conditioning.

You could also go the Boulevard route and not pitch the brett until bottling. Haven't tried it, but it would be an interesting experiment on the homebrew scale.

 

[jnacey]

Do you think that's more beneficial than a higher mash temp?

It's different, imo. Mashing at a higher temp will leave more sugars for brett to eat, but when brett eats just sugars you don't necessarily get lots of brett flavors, ie a 100% Brett fermented beer is rather clean tasting.

As I said in my prior post, setting up the situation for Brett where there are precursors in the wort that will encourage certain metabolic pathways to Brett flavors is important, imo. Using phenolic Belgian strains with a ferulic rest is a great way to do it.

Here's an example of what I'm saying. The other extreme of a clean 100% Brett fermented beer is Orval. This is a Belgian yeast fermenting a dry beer where Brett brux is added only at bottling. So there you have little residual sugars combined with Brett under pressure. If you've had Orval before, it's got a ton of the funk it sounds like you're looking for.

Look, you'll make a fine beer with any mash temp, a Belgian primary and a Brett secondary. I just happen to prefer some of the flavors that come from doing the ferulic acid rest. To me it's similar to the character in GI Sofie, if you've had that.

I BIAB in a cooler and step mashes are a breeze, btw.

 

[Brett3rThanU]

Thanks for the all the posts guys, I think I'll try a ferulic acid rest. I'm also going to finish American Sour Beers before I venture on another brett/sour beer. There's still a lot of gaps in my knowledge in this area of brewing I'd like to fill first.

 

[jnacey]

Enjoy. It's a fun subset of homebrewing.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Use the Rest Calculator here:

http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml

That should help.

 

[beergolf]

If you want a lot of good info about brett watch these videos by Chad Yakobson. They dispell a lot of myths about brett.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjVOzBtE27Y[/ame]

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Swv294Xkbq8[/ame]

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9FtfPKRBUhA[/ame]

 

[edroberts]

If you want a lot of good info about brett watch these videos by Chad Yakobson. They dispell a lot of myths about brett.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjVOzBtE27Y

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Swv294Xkbq8

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9FtfPKRBUhA

Got a half hour through the first video. Really liking these. Thanks for posting. I'd be lost if I hadn't taken an online chemistry of beer course.

 

[beergolf]

The best video is the second one where there is a long Q & A session. Some really good info.

The first one is a little dry but a lot of good info.

I like the question about mash temps. It is at about 43:20 in the second video. One myth about brett that he does not agree with.