Saflager S-23 vs US-05 vs US-04

[rancidcrabtree]

I’m hoping to brew a fairly crisp, neutral and dry ale or lager with a very simple grain bill (a whole lotta 2 row and some crystal). My choices for yeast are US-05, Saflager S-23 or US-04. I think this is really a question of which yeast would work best given my temperature control options. Here are the choices I can see:

1. Use Saflager S-23 in my garage which stays relatively stable at 50°. I’ve read that S-23 works best at 50-57° for primary fermentation, the problem is that I don’t have a cooler place to move to after the primary so I don’t think I’d be able to do a true lager.
2. Use US-05 and ferment in my brew closet which is about 64° during the day and may get as high as 70° during the day (every time I turn around SWMBO is turning up the thermostat!). I can pitch at 60° and then when fermentation gets over 65° I can move to the garage until it gets back down to 60°, and keep doing that, but it sounds like a real PITA and there will be some temperature swings.
3. Rack my wort on top of a fresh cake of US-04 from my last brew. From my understanding I will be way over-pitching this way and might not get some of the esters/flavors typically associated with this yeast, even if it ferments a bit warm…

What do you guys thing? I’m looking for some advice from the experts out there who might know a thing or two about these particular yeast strains. Thanks for the help and Merry Christmas!

 

[jonmohno]

3 your not getting esters from overpitching 04? I was going to say just grab about 6-8 oz of slurry and use that for your batch.
For your s-23 that is perfect then just rack it and stick it in your fridge for a month+ depending on gravity.
I would do the lager in your situatiion then again you can save some yeast and ranch off of your slurry too. They are all pretty clean given low temps. but your right you really need to pay attention to your peak temps when fermenting for 3-5 or so days during ferment. They are all good 04 in my opinon is not a very pronounced and estery beer unless maybe higher temps. Its pretty subtle and not near as englishy as some of the english commercial beers.
You could try to stabaize it with a swamp cooler and thermometer. All you would have to do is check up on it a few times a day and switch out frozen water bottles. That way you would not have to move it back and forth. Cheers and Merry Christmas!

 

[rancidcrabtree]

Thanks for the reply! I've never actually racked on top of a yeast cake, I was only going off of what I've read on HBT. I would honestly prefer to go with pitching on the cake or using some of the slurry, or else with the lager yeast as I have also never lagered, not to mention I've been using US-05 a lot lately and I'd like to change things up just a bit. The only problem I can see with the S-23 is that I don't have a fridge to move to after initial fermentation so I don't know if it would really come out nice and clean like a true lager.

So anyways, I think I'm leaning towards reusing the 04, unless there really would be a benefit to using S-23. Do you think I'd be a lot better off harvesting some slurry or would it be alright if I used the whole cake?

 

[jonmohno]

I dont know anything about overpitching 04 to get less esters. I just think you wont get so many esters pitching normally with a good low ferment temp.
I reused some liquid yeast for the first time, i racked/bottled then brewd the next day. I did boil some water with some jars/lids and sealed them stuck them in the fridge. After i bottled i immedialaty scooped enough slurry out in the water resealed into the water jars and refrigerated and took it out for 5 hrs before i pitched my next batch. I did get a slow start compared to rehydrating dry yeast but i had it sitting in the low 60's, i just used a heat pad on warm to jump start it a bit after nothing was going on over 18 hrs. Its going strong now with a pretty thick layer of yeast on top.Its sitting in the low 60's and im pretty happy about it considering i saved another 9$ vial of liquid yeast.(wlp005)

 

[rancidcrabtree]

Yeah, to be honest I'm really liking the idea of saving a few bucks and getting at least one more use out of my yeast, not that a new pack of 04 is going to break the bank or anything, but I think it will be great practice for the day when I do have the opportunity to reuse a $9 yeast instead of buying a new one.

I don't want to come across as being stuck on the idea of just pitching onto the whole cake, but here's why I really want to do it... The beer sitting on the cake right now is still pretty young and I don't have bottles for it right now anyways so I'd be moving it over to a secondary. What I'd like to do is rack it to a secondary at the same time as I'm chilling the wort for my new batch and then rack directly on top of the cake, I think this would save me a considerable amount of time. Is there any reason why doing this would be a bad idea?

 

[jonmohno]

I would just scoop some out.Although ive heard of people racking on the cake, its also referred as a not very good brewing practice, because of the overpitching. And maybe the fact you should use a fresh sanitized carboy. You could scoop some out into a sanitized jar or bowl cover clean your vessle(while cooling the wort) then pitch it after aerating it. But if you dont want to do that, it probably would be ok,many seem to do that and not have problems.

 

[rancidcrabtree]

Alright, alright, you talked me into it! I'll harvest some slurry and sanitize the carboy. Thanks for your advice and patience Since we're on the topic of yeast, I just remembered I have a pack of Windsor that's been sitting in my fridge for a few months, it's the old kind from before they changed the packaging and jacked up the price. Do you think it would be worth trying to use it on something or should I just toss it?

 

[wilserbrewer]

lots and lot of people have done what you are proposing w success ....I typically just use a large sanitized soup ladle to grab about third of the cake into a Ziploc bag and deputy that...but if you want to pitch on the whole cake...go for it.

 

[rancidcrabtree]

Never thought of that, I could harvest some and pitch on top of the rest, I'm sure there's plenty to go around!

 

[jonmohno]

Alright, alright, you talked me into it! I'll harvest some slurry and sanitize the carboy. Thanks for your advice and patience Since we're on the topic of yeast, I just remembered I have a pack of Windsor that's been sitting in my fridge for a few months, it's the old kind from before they changed the packaging and jacked up the price. Do you think it would be worth trying to use it on something or should I just toss it?

Ive used it and im pretty neutral about it, really sometimes i cant tell between my batches with dry yeast, ive had similar results with 05,04,notthingham,windsor,and a few more. They seem very subltle in terms of character and seem to all be mild in esters.
I dont see why you would get rid of it with the right recipe it will work well,probably with many really. I am a bit more selective with what yeast to use with certain styles.Ive looked at some kit styles that reccomeed certain styles to use with certain yeasts also. I made a pretty good esb with windsor,almost a year ago that is still good,had one maybe a few weeks ago,still was good.

 

[copyright1997]

Lazy mans yeast re-use:
Get yourself some pint or quart mason jars. Sterilize a couple (quart) or four (pint) by placing the jars and the inner portion of the lids (the part that the liquid in a jar can come in contact with) in boiling water for 15 minutes. Take them out of the boiling water and place the lids onto the mason jars and leave somewhat loose. Let them cool to almost room temperature. Sanitize a soup ladle in Star San or your favorite no-rinse sanitizer.

Rack the current beer off of the yeast cake. Using the sanitized ladle, fill up the mason jars 1/2 way. Seal loosely. Put them in the fridge. If you are doing another batch, save some (about the same amount, i.e. 1/2 quart) for the new batch.

Re-use the ones in the fridge within a few weeks. For these, take them out about the time you start your mash and let them warm while you do your mash/sparge/boil.


I tend to use US-05 w/2ROW, S-04 with things like MO. For some reason (either the grains or the yeast), I prefer S-04.

With the above method, I get my per-batch yeast cost well south of $2. I go a couple/few rounds and then start over. Doing this forces me to brew frequently as I don't want the yeast sitting in the refrigerator too long. One of these days I will go the yeast washing route or even someday do yeast slants.

Just got done drinking an English style IPA made with MO, EKG, S-04. Awesome.

 

[rancidcrabtree]

Since it looks like I might have my hands on an abundance of S-04 in the short term future, I'd be interested in knowing your English Style IPA with MO, EKG, and S-04, if you're interested in sharing!

 

[C-Rider]

How long can you store the yeast in the mason jars? And at what temp? I have room in my conditioning fridges at 70. Is that to warm? Don't know how many I could put in the SWMBO's fridge in the house.

 

[copyright1997]

Since it looks like I might have my hands on an abundance of S-04 in the short term future, I'd be interested in knowing your English Style IPA with MO, EKG, and S-04, if you're interested in sharing!

It's not my recipe, but here it is: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/anyone-brewed-ipa-ekg-140192/#post1591350. I think if you read it a bit, you will find people who subbed MO and S-04 (which I did).

 

[djt17]

I also wash my yeast using the lazy mans way, as noted above. I too was using US-05 for a lot of my beers. I used S-04 in a few of my blond & cream ales, that I had used 05. Fermented in the mid 60's it works well. I also used S-04 in a brown ale that turned out really well.