Saflager 34/70

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seabrew8

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Hi Folks, who's using 34/70 these days? It was my favorite yeast when i stopped brewing, 2-3 years ago.

I'm going to make a pale lager next week. Simply; 9# 2-row, 2# Vienna and Hallertau to about 25IBU. 1.5oz 60min + 0.5oz 10min or something.

I was going to use an old fridge and hook up my inkbird and ferment at 54f for about a week and put it in my cool basement after. 60-65f.

However, i just looked over the technical pdf file on the fermentis site and it states, "Ideally at 12-18°C (53.6-64.4°F).

If i not mistaken the old packs used to say, 12-15C.

I just found it interesting, maybe they improved/increased the temp. range?

I might change my approach..

edit: I'm trying to figure out the pitch rate also. Not something i geeked out on before. If i read it correctly its basically 2.8 to 4.5 grams per gallon above 54f fermentation.

I'm going to use about 15g i think for 5 gallons. 1.5 pkg
 
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thehaze

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There is at least one lenghty thread on the forum regarding " warm fermented lagers " which I highly recommending reading. It contains real life experience from brewers that have fermented lagers at room temperature without any issues. I too ferment lagers using W-34/70 and fermenting warm - beer turned out clear and clean every time.

Fermentis still recommends 12- 15°C: SafLager™ W‑34/70 and it works well even at 20°C.
 

csantoni

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I just kegged a Mexican Lager I fermented at 56F with 34/70. First sample tasted pretty good and the fermentation was fast and strong.

PXL_20211015_234708401.jpg
 

Miraculix

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3470 is the most forgiving yeast in the world. Just needs time to settle after it finished, that's all.

Throw it into the wort, wait, have beer. That simple. Sure, it is a tad bit cleaner at 12c, but for me, it's not worth the hustle. Just let it ride at room temperature and be done with it.
 
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seabrew8

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3470 is the most forgiving yeast in the world. Just needs time to settle after it finished, that's all.

Throw it into the wort, wait, have beer. That simple. Sure, it is a tad bit cleaner at 12c, but for me, it's not worth the hustle. Just let it ride at room temperature and be done with it.
Hassle is relative. :D My basement is about 62f now so it would be a hassle to ferment and carry it upstairs in room temp.
 

Drewch

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I've used 34/70 up into the 20s, and to my palate it's cleaner than US-05 in that range. Maybe not crisp, Bavarian, fermented-in-a-cave lager clean, but pretty dang neutral.
 
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seabrew8

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5 days primary at 56F, 3 days diacetyl rest at 67F, cold crashed to 40F for 4 days, fined with gelation and into the keg.

I'll probably let it lager a week or two but it's pretty good already.
When did you add the gelatin? How much did you use?
 

csantoni

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When did you add the gelatin? How much did you use?
After cold crash. I’m still experimenting with the timing of that and wanted to do it on the way down but had to wait so I did it after it was at 40F for a couple days. I use 1g per gallon in 2oz water per gallon. So for this batch, 3 gal, I used 3g gelatin in 6oz water. Process I used was boil water, let cool to room temp, sprinkle gelatin, let bloom 15 mins, heat slowly to 150F, add to beer.
 
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seabrew8

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After cold crash. I’m still experimenting with the timing of that and wanted to do it on the way down but had to wait so I did it after it was at 40F for a couple days. I use 1g per gallon in 2oz water per gallon. So for this batch, 3 gal, I used 3g gelatin in 6oz water. Process I used was boil water, let cool to room temp, sprinkle gelatin, let bloom 15 mins, heat slowly to 150F, add to beer.
I see. I'm going to try 7-8 grams for 5 gals. I will be adding it about 24 hours after i place the carboy in my very cold fridge. 2c or so.

Have you tried biofine clear?
 

csantoni

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Have you tried biofine clear?
No, only ever used gelatin. My next batch I’ll be trying some Whirlfloc in the kettle. I think my clarity issues are due to lack of a good cold break as gelatin has never been as effective as I’d like it to be. Even time hasn’t always given me the clarity I want. My current pale ale is 6 weeks old, 4 in the keg, and it’s still a bit cloudy.
 

camonick

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I use 34/70 for almost all my lagers. I pitch 1 packet for 3 gallon batches and 2 for 5 gallons. I don't like to split packages and try to store the leftovers. I pitch dry into the cool wort. Ferment at 54 degrees for 2-3 weeks. Rarely do a diacetyl rest. I have good results with it.
 
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seabrew8

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I use 34/70 for almost all my lagers. I pitch 1 packet for 3 gallon batches and 2 for 5 gallons. I don't like to split packages and try to store the leftovers. I pitch dry into the cool wort. Ferment at 54 degrees for 2-3 weeks. Rarely do a diacetyl rest. I have good results with it.
I will be trying this method next batch.


Its interesting.
 

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I used 3 sachets in my lager. Turned out great, but $9.00 a sachet is too much to pay. Went back to liquid lager yeast with over build.
 

wepeeler

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I will be trying this method next batch.


Its interesting.
I've tried quite a few of Nick's lagers and they are great. Clean and tasty.

I've only used 34/70 1 time and wasn't a huge fan, but I'm definitely going to give it another shot, now that I have tight temp control.
 

csantoni

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34/70 is reported to produce little to no diacetyl towards the low end of its temperature range.
I haven't figured it out yet, but something about my process produces more diacetyl than expected. I even get a lot of it in my ales and have to leave them in the primary well beyond FG to ensure it all gets cleaned up. So I always do a diacetyl rest when I'm making a lager, but that's just me.
 

Miraculix

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I haven't figured it out yet, but something about my process produces more diacetyl than expected. I even get a lot of it in my ales and have to leave them in the primary well beyond FG to ensure it all gets cleaned up. So I always do a diacetyl rest when I'm making a lager, but that's just me.
Maybe you are just extremely sensitive to it? So your friends also taste it in your brews?
 

csantoni

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Maybe you are just extremely sensitive to it? So your friends also taste it in your brews?
I'm definitely very sensitive to it. I've never shared anything that I thought still had any traces of diacetyl so I can't say whether others can detect it.

I stewarded at a competition this summer and the judges at my table didn't detect the diacetyl in a couple of the beers until I mentioned it. To me it was obvious. So I know I'm really sensitive to it but I won't enjoy my brews if I can taste it. I'm working on getting clearer wort into the fermentor. I think my lack of a good cold break may be a factor in more "gunk" getting into the fermentor and carrying more precursors with it. I'm still investigating.
 

camonick

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I'm definitely very sensitive to it. I've never shared anything that I thought still had any traces of diacetyl so I can't say whether others can detect it.

I stewarded at a competition this summer and the judges at my table didn't detect the diacetyl in a couple of the beers until I mentioned it. To me it was obvious. So I know I'm really sensitive to it but I won't enjoy my brews if I can taste it. I'm working on getting clearer wort into the fermentor. I think my lack of a good cold break may be a factor in more "gunk" getting into the fermentor and carrying more precursors with it. I'm still investigating.
If you’re that sensitive to it, it might be a challenge to eliminate it to levels you can’t detect. I recently had a Pilsner and Schwarzbier judged and diacetyl wasn’t mentioned in the comments of either beer. Both were fermented with 34/70 using the method I mentioned above. I will add, I do use gelatin when I keg.
 

Miraculix

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I'm definitely very sensitive to it. I've never shared anything that I thought still had any traces of diacetyl so I can't say whether others can detect it.

I stewarded at a competition this summer and the judges at my table didn't detect the diacetyl in a couple of the beers until I mentioned it. To me it was obvious. So I know I'm really sensitive to it but I won't enjoy my brews if I can taste it. I'm working on getting clearer wort into the fermentor. I think my lack of a good cold break may be a factor in more "gunk" getting into the fermentor and carrying more precursors with it. I'm still investigating.
I do not think that there is any connection between trub and diacetyl production. I would expect it to be the other way around, the more trub, the less unwanted byproducts as the trub contains nutrients that feed the yeast.

You can try incorporating 5-10% oats in your beers, I know that oats provide some fatty acids that are essentially underrepresented within barley only wort, which make for a healthier ferment. I am not sure that diacethyl production will be limited by this, but other unwanted byproducts will be limited would not surprise me if diacetyl would also be lowered by oat additions.

You can read more about this topic on scott janish's blog.
 

monkeymath

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I'm definitely very sensitive to it. I've never shared anything that I thought still had any traces of diacetyl so I can't say whether others can detect it.

I stewarded at a competition this summer and the judges at my table didn't detect the diacetyl in a couple of the beers until I mentioned it. To me it was obvious. So I know I'm really sensitive to it but I won't enjoy my brews if I can taste it. I'm working on getting clearer wort into the fermentor. I think my lack of a good cold break may be a factor in more "gunk" getting into the fermentor and carrying more precursors with it. I'm still investigating.
Are you certain that it is in fact diacetyl when you think you're tasting diacetyl?

I'm asking because truly tasting something and connecting it to a memory and a specific substance is actually pretty hard. Homebrewers and beer geeks often love to use a very precise vocabulary when it comes to these things, but I think only few actually have the capability to attribute these things so directly.

I know I certainly don't. I have five tiny bottles of essential oils of different herbs and from time to time I smell each blindly and try to guess which is which. Even with this tiny sample size and my growing experience with it, it is terribly difficult.
 

Miraculix

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Are you certain that it is in fact diacetyl when you think you're tasting diacetyl?

I'm asking because truly tasting something and connecting it to a memory and a specific substance is actually pretty hard. Homebrewers and beer geeks often love to use a very precise vocabulary when it comes to these things, but I think only few actually have the capability to attribute these things so directly.

I know I certainly don't. I have five tiny bottles of essential oils of different herbs and from time to time I smell each blindly and try to guess which is which. Even with this tiny sample size and my growing experience with it, it is terribly difficult.
You have to dilute them in a way or you have to spread a tiny amount on the surface of something to let it evapurate. Directly from the bottle, it is just too much for the nose to handle correctly. I know because I also was testing this with some esential oils and first I was blown away that all of them smell kind of the same... they did not after I rubbed a tiny bit of it betwenn my fingers and waited a bit for it to evapurate. Then suddenly, all the differences were there.
 

csantoni

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I do not think that there is any connection between trub and diacetyl production.
You're probably correct. I can't remember everything I've read on the topic at this point. It's not something I consider a problem, it always dissipates if I give the yeast enough time. What I'm really after is clarity. I have had a few batches that just never seem to clear as much as I'd like and without exception, my best tasting beers have been the clearest.

Are you certain that it is in fact diacetyl when you think you're tasting diacetyl?
I'm fairly certain it is diacetyl. The flavor is there in almost every batch to one extent or another, often with the slickness in the mouth. Time fixes it, but there are definitely times when I've had a batch at FG for several days but waited to package until I couldn't taste the diacetyl anymore. I use a Spike Flex+ so I sometimes take small samples along the way because I'm curious about how things smell & taste at various stages of the process.
 

Miraculix

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You're probably correct. I can't remember everything I've read on the topic at this point. It's not something I consider a problem, it always dissipates if I give the yeast enough time. What I'm really after is clarity. I have had a few batches that just never seem to clear as much as I'd like and without exception, my best tasting beers have been the clearest.


I'm fairly certain it is diacetyl. The flavor is there in almost every batch to one extent or another, often with the slickness in the mouth. Time fixes it, but there are definitely times when I've had a batch at FG for several days but waited to package until I couldn't taste the diacetyl anymore. I use a Spike Flex+ so I sometimes take small samples along the way because I'm curious about how things smell & taste at various stages of the process.
Also clarity of the beer is not connected to the amount of trub in the wort.

I totally agree that the clearer the beer, the better the taste, with the exception of certain styles and turbidity caused by chill haze, which does not have a taste. If there's yeast in suspension, it ruins the taste, the more yeast drops out, the better the taste.

But there's the point, it's not the trub, it's the yeast that causes this taste ruining turbidity.

There are other reasons, why clear wort might be desirable, but clearer beer is none of them.
 

Beermeister32

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Also clarity of the beer is not connected to the amount of trub in the wort
There’s an interesting experiment… My batches are 6 gallon - 5.25 goes into the carboy, the last gallon of kettle trub sludge goes into the gallon jug to ferment separately.

The one-gallon jug - Sometimes OK, sometimes weird, you get about 5 bottles to play around with.

Seems like these kettle trub jugs ferment out faster and clearer than the main batch. Weird.
 

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Miraculix

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There’s an interesting experiment… My batches are 6 gallon - 5.25 goes into the carboy, the last gallon of kettle trub sludge goes into the gallon jug to ferment separately.

The one-gallon jug - Sometimes OK, sometimes weird, you get about 5 bottles to play around with.

Seems like these kettle trub jugs ferment out faster and clearer than the main batch. Weird.
Nice experiment!

Faster fermentation happens due to more nutrients available.

I made a similar experiment once but not with the trub but with replacing part of the mash with regular oats. The oats batch fermented faster then the other. Here is some further info about this:

 

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I’ve used 2 packets on batches up to a starting gravity of 1.072 with great results. I want to try 1 pack on lower gravity beers but figure I’d stick with what I know works for me. I usually pay between $5 and $6 per sachet.
 

bwible

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My club did a presentation last month on warm fermenting 34/70. They had beers from the same wort, one fermented at the tradional 50-55 degrees (F) and one that was fermented at room temp, 66-71 (F). Both were then aged cold. We were presented a triangle test as a group and an insignificant number out of a of very experienced group of brewers and beer judges could tell the difference.

I have one going now that I did right after that presentation. Warm fermented at cellar temp. My basement pretty much matches the 66-71 range. Very quick ferment from 1.050 to 1.012 in 3 days. I used one packet for a 5 gallon batch. Just sprinkled on top. No rehydration or anything fancy. Has been aging cold in the back of my kegerator for 3 weeks. I plan to keg it next week. Seems great so far.

One of the things presented was that the people at Fermentis say you do not need to aerate or oxygenate this yeast. They have that in their process.
 
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Beermeister32

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One of these days I’d like to try the “sprinkle on top” procedure with no O2. The thing is, brewing is this step by step refining of processes.

We’ve been told to “oxygenate well” for so long it somehow goes against convention. It’s hard to make yourself to do it - takes quite a bit of effort to produce a batch of beer. You think about those other past batches you suffered through (and drank anyway!)

If that batch came out weird, I’d be kicking myself for quite a while for not pulling out the O2 tank and carbonation stone setup.
 

Miraculix

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One of these days I’d like to try the “sprinkle on top” procedure with no O2. The thing is, brewing is this step by step refining of processes.

We’ve been told to “oxygenate well” for so long it somehow goes against convention. It’s hard to make yourself to do it - takes quite a bit of effort to produce a batch of beer. You think about those other past batches you suffered through (and drank anyway!)

If that batch came out weird, I’d be kicking myself for quite a while for not pulling out the O2 tank and carbonation stone setup.
Just to encourage you a bit, I honestly oxygenated my wort not a single time since I started home brewing.
 
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