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Legume

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So I started a gluten free belgian wit yesterday (partial mash, rice extract with buckwheat and millet malt), and I pitched S-33...Wow.
I have never had fermentation start so rapidly anc "stop" so fast!

Within 2 hours of pitching the dry yeast in the primary (no starter, no rehydration...dry yeast dumped into wort), the wort was very activly fermenting. Within 4 hours it was blowing a near constant stream of C02 out of the airlock ( more than 3 bubbles / second) witch continued all night, within 30 hours (maybe fewer...I wasnt home untill 30 hours) fermentation appears to have stopped and yeast have droppedout of suspension.

starting gravity was 1.047
30 hours after pitching yeast gravity is 1.020

I think the beer is fine, and will probably drop a fer points inbthe coming days...
has anyone else had this experience with this yeast...this is not normal for me, but this is the first time I have used S-33
 
The beer was at ambiant temperature...around 75 degrees
 
:eek: That's really warm! This yeast has stalled at 1.020 on me before, then one week later (after rousing the yeast cake) it came back with a second krausen and finished out. It was good beer, I like the flavor profile of the yeast, but it was a different behavior than I expected. I also started it at 63, raised to 65, then to 70 after a week. That was beer temp, not ambient. If you were at 75 ambient, your beer easily hit 80, probably 85 or higher during peak activity.
 
I have a pack of this yeast and was wondering what style I could use it on initially. I've been trying new yeast strains as I expand my brewing experience with a variety of styles. Any suggestions on what it would work well on?


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It makes a nice wheat ale. Fairly neutral, some fruitiness if you ferment warm.
 
I know its a bit warm, but I have good results at 75 ambiant temp with other yeasts (US-05). I dont have a method to control fermentation temperature, and summers are hot here...I am running out of time to make beer for summer. I have been watching the weather report and brewing if highs are in the 70s for the folowing week. We have already had a few weeks in the low 90s. I hope to make one more batch ( a gluten free IPA) before it just too hot to consider making beer.
 
I am in Phoenix man, and I can tell you that making a swamp cooler is the least you could do. If you put a fan on a swamp you could reach fairly decent temps given your room temp....
 
Legume said:
I know its a bit warm, but I have good results at 75 ambiant temp with other yeasts (US-05). I dont have a method to control fermentation temperature, and summers are hot here...I am running out of time to make beer for summer. I have been watching the weather report and brewing if highs are in the 70s for the folowing week. We have already had a few weeks in the low 90s. I hope to make one more batch ( a gluten free IPA) before it just too hot to consider making beer.
Click to expand...

As long as you are getting the results you are looking for, keep doing what works! :D That said, if you decide you want to try and control the temps to brew in the summer months without getting into an actual fermentation chamber, you can try a swamp cooler to help keep things in check. It's cheap, it's easy, and it works: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/swamp-cooler-199965/
 
Legume said:
I know its a bit warm, but I have good results at 75 ambiant temp with other yeasts (US-05). I dont have a method to control fermentation temperature, and summers are hot here...I am running out of time to make beer for summer. I have been watching the weather report and brewing if highs are in the 70s for the folowing week. We have already had a few weeks in the low 90s. I hope to make one more batch ( a gluten free IPA) before it just too hot to consider making beer.
Click to expand...

Brewed in Davis the whole time I was there. Go with the swamp cooler method and you will see some good results. As for the 33, I had an identical stall on the belgian pale I did some time ago. Took another week or two to clean up but never fell below 1.018. Good luck
 
just an fyi, s-33 is an english strain, so you didn't make a belgian wit

definitely agree with the swamp cooler suggestions. while you may enjoy the results, you'd probably enjoy them even more if they were fermented at the proper temps. it's one of the biggest/best changes you can make to a beer
 
That S-33 fermented at 75ish will put off a lot of :ban: esters. It's recommended temp range tops out at 70 and even 70 is a tad to warm in my experience.
 
I use this strain exclusively for my bourbon dubbel and it rocks early on. I try to keep it under 70 degrees. I agree with some previous posters about giving the yeast a good rousing to get it going again.

Always had good results in the finished product.
 
dcp27 said:
just an fyi, s-33 is an english strain, so you didn't make a belgian wit

definitely agree with the swamp cooler suggestions. while you may enjoy the results, you'd probably enjoy them even more if they were fermented at the proper temps. it's one of the biggest/best changes you can make to a beer
Click to expand...

Looking at norther brewer I can see that it is english. Oh well. Worked for me.
 
The S-05 you have used before is a VERY temperature forgiving yeast strain. Honestly I know nothing about the s-33 but I wouldn't expect it to preform like the US-05. Give a swamp cooler a try to help you control ferment temp.
 
Love me some S-33. I use it in my red ale, and it has proven to be forgiving and it has a good flavor profile. Ferm temps for me run between 65 and 70 degrees. FG has been consistent at 1.016 in three batches.
 
RPCidery said:
Love me some S-33. I use it in my red ale, and it has proven to be forgiving and it has a good flavor profile. Ferm temps for me run between 65 and 70 degrees. FG has been consistent at 1.016 in three batches.
Click to expand...


Red ales, Belgian wheats... check! Keep those suggestions coming!


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I'm pretty sure it is the EDME strain, I think the reason that fermentis put the Belgian in the description is that duvel used a derivative of this yeast. That being said it doesn't produce many if the phenolics of a Belgian strain. I've used it in a British ale and it had a hard time finishing out - I've got another pack and have yet to use it - maybe in a mild I want to finish high.


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shoreman said:
I'm pretty sure it is the EDME strain, I think the reason that fermentis put the Belgian in the description is that duvel used a derivative of this yeast. That being said it doesn't produce many if the phenolics of a Belgian strain. I've used it in a British ale and it had a hard time finishing out - I've got another pack and have yet to use it - maybe in a mild I want to finish high.


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Click to expand...

^Yep, it's EDME, and doesn't throw phenols like a true Belgian yeast. You can get some nice fruity esters like banana from it by fermenting warm (pitch at 65, let it rise naturally to 70 beer temp when fermentation kicks off, not ambient, hold it there until peak krausen, bump up to ~72)
 
Using an english yeast to make a wit is the least of my problems...this is a gluten free beer made from rice extract, and millet, buckwheat and oats that I "malt" myself. My gf brewing is highly experimental, as long as this ends up remotely beer like, I will be happy...even if its not true to style (almost any gf homebrew is superior to the comercially available gluten free beers). Thank you all for the sugestions and your experiences with this yeast. You have motivated me to take controling fermentation temperature a little more seriously. I will try to remember to report back when I bottle this batch.
 
Yeast is yeast at the end of the day - hope it turns out to be a great beer.


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Legume said:
Using an english yeast to make a wit is the least of my problems...this is a gluten free beer made from rice extract, and millet, buckwheat and oats that I "malt" myself. My gf brewing is highly experimental, as long as this ends up remotely beer like, I will be happy...even if its not true to style (almost any gf homebrew is superior to the comercially available gluten free beers). Thank you all for the sugestions and your experiences with this yeast. You have motivated me to take controling fermentation temperature a little more seriously. I will try to remember to report back when I bottle this batch.
Click to expand...

You know Chris at Berryessa Brewing is Gluten intolerant I have heard and if you call him he will tell you which of his beers are gluten free. I haven't talked to him since I left school but he was at the time also the Green Belt Homebrewers Club president and would likely fill you in on what ever you had questions on. I believe he brews like Omission from Deschutes in that he uses clarity ferm when possible. In California we can't say it is gluten free like up in Oregon but my Prof. at Davis assured me that the enzyme pretty much takes care of it. Haven't used it myself but it is easy to obtain.
 
Got the ingredients for my honey wheat ale and will brew it tomorrow. I want it to have an American character so I'm using US tettenang for bittering but am debating on the yeast to use. I have a small starter of wlp090 (San Diego super) but want to use my S-33 also, which is a British strain. My head tells me wlp090 but my heart was set on the S-33... Decisions, decisions!

What say ye, HBT'ers?


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RoughandReadyRanch said:
You know Chris at Berryessa Brewing is Gluten intolerant I have heard and if you call him he will tell you which of his beers are gluten free. I haven't talked to him since I left school but he was at the time also the Green Belt Homebrewers Club president and would likely fill you in on what ever you had questions on. I believe he brews like Omission from Deschutes in that he uses clarity ferm when possible. In California we can't say it is gluten free like up in Oregon but my Prof. at Davis assured me that the enzyme pretty much takes care of it. Haven't used it myself but it is easy to obtain.
Click to expand...

Thank you! I may have to go by Berryessa brewing and chat with them.
As for clarity ferm, it shears up the gluten protein so the beer will pass an elisa test for gluten...but there will be plenty of small fragments of the protein in the beer, and ceilac disease can be triggered by these fragments (unfortunately). Omission is not safe for celiacs and should not be allowed to be marked as gluten free, as it competes for retail shelf space with legitimately gluten free beers(that are NOT slowly poisioning their clientele). Sorry for the off topic soap box rant...but this is an important issue for a celiac beer lover (who can not tolerate beers treated with clarity ferm).
 
Legume said:
Thank you! I may have to go by Berryessa brewing and chat with them.
As for clarity ferm, it shears up the gluten protein so the beer will pass an elisa test for gluten...but there will be plenty of small fragments of the protein in the beer, and ceilac disease can be triggered by these fragments (unfortunately). Omission is not safe for celiacs and should not be allowed to be marked as gluten free, as it competes for retail shelf space with legitimately gluten free beers(that are NOT slowly poisioning their clientele). Sorry for the off topic soap box rant...but this is an important issue for a celiac beer lover (who can not tolerate beers treated with clarity ferm).
Click to expand...

I think when it comes to celiacs most folks are not in that one percent. Most of my nutrition classes have pretty much summed up gluten free as a marketing hype targeting people who most often either are misdiagnosed or have some other underlying issue that is playing a factor. My mother in law would fall into the other category. She likely has IBS or something of the sort and mixes that with eating like crap a'la winco/walmart bakery and blames her woes on celiacs though a recent trip out of country yielded no such results when eating artisan baked goods. From what I do know though if you have celiacs then drinking beer is probably the last thing you would really need in your diet. Interesting to here about the take on clarity ferm but do you have any articles, studies to back that claim as they have already signed of on it in Oregon as gluten free and that would be a huge liability if what you were saying was in fact true. Nut trying to be a dick here but I am hearing from a leading brewing scientist ( Dr. Bamforth UCD) that it is in fact for all inclusive purposes showing clean. Obviously I could personally care less I am not in the one percent so I have taken it at face value but if you have data that shows otherwise I would love to see it as I was planning to start using C.F. for beers for a friend of mine to see how they treated him. Thanks.
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7907731http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7907731[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7907731http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7907731http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7907731QUOTE=RoughandReadyRanch;6257002]I think when it comes to celiacs most folks are not in that one percent. Most of my nutrition classes have pretty much summed up gluten free as a marketing hype targeting people who most often either are misdiagnosed or have some other underlying issue that is playing a factor. My mother in law would fall into the other category. She likely has IBS or something of the sort and mixes that with eating like crap a'la winco/walmart bakery and blames her woes on celiacs though a recent trip out of country yielded no such results when eating artisan baked goods. From what I do know though if you have celiacs then drinking beer is probably the last thing you would really need in your diet. Interesting to here about the take on clarity ferm but do you have any articles, studies to back that claim as they have already signed of on it in Oregon as gluten free and that would be a huge liability if what you were saying was in fact true. Nut trying to be a dick here but I am hearing from a leading brewing scientist ( Dr. Bamforth UCD) that it is in fact for all inclusive purposes showing clean. Obviously I could personally care less I am not in the one percent so I have taken it at face value but if you have data that shows otherwise I would love to see it as I was planning to start using C.F. for beers for a friend of mine to see how they treated him. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

I will try to summ up my logic here.
To start with, I am a real celiac (diagnised 11 years ago, before I had ever heard of "gluten free").

I stated that celiac desease can be trigered by small fragments of protein...below is a link to a paper showing protein fragments 18 peptides long trigering immune response in patients with celiac(you will have to look up the paper...posting a link from this tablet does not seem to be working).

Lancet.*1994 Mar 26;343(8900):758-61.
Wheat peptide challenge in coeliac disease.

I also stated that clarity ferm is a protease that just shears up the proteins that induce the immune response in celiacs.
Below is the description of clarity ferm coppied directly from whitelabs website...
WLN4000 CLARITY FERM

"CLARITY-FERM is a product containing a highly specific endo-protease which only cleaves polypeptides at the carboxyl end of the amino acid proline.* Protease is derived from*Aspergillus niger"

The current elisa tests used to validate gluten free claims are not capable of detdcting reactive gluten fragments in foods in whitch the protein has been hydrolized (like beer). So you should expect any clarity ferm treeted beer to "pass" the elisa test with flying colors...you should also expect it to ilicit an immune response in people with celiac desease. Have a look at tge link below for information on the elisa tests used to detect gluten.

http://mobile.beveragedaily.com/Regulation-Safety/CODEX-sanctioned-gluten-testing-method-may-underestimate-values-in-hydrolysed-foods-such-as-beer-researcher-claims#.U8svvmZlDMI

So I have provided a bit of evedence to support a few of my statements above...but the most compelling evedence for me is the cramping and diarrhea followed by 3 weeks of joint pain (this is my typical gluten response) that follow drinking beer treeted with clarity ferm...I know several others that have similar issues with clarity ferm treeted beer.
 
Legume said:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7907731http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7907731[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...med/7907731QUOTE=RoughandReadyRanch;6257002]I think when it comes to celiacs most folks are not in that one percent. Most of my nutrition classes have pretty much summed up gluten free as a marketing hype targeting people who most often either are misdiagnosed or have some other underlying issue that is playing a factor. My mother in law would fall into the other category. She likely has IBS or something of the sort and mixes that with eating like crap a'la winco/walmart bakery and blames her woes on celiacs though a recent trip out of country yielded no such results when eating artisan baked goods. From what I do know though if you have celiacs then drinking beer is probably the last thing you would really need in your diet. Interesting to here about the take on clarity ferm but do you have any articles, studies to back that claim as they have already signed of on it in Oregon as gluten free and that would be a huge liability if what you were saying was in fact true. Nut trying to be a dick here but I am hearing from a leading brewing scientist ( Dr. Bamforth UCD) that it is in fact for all inclusive purposes showing clean. Obviously I could personally care less I am not in the one percent so I have taken it at face value but if you have data that shows otherwise I would love to see it as I was planning to start using C.F. for beers for a friend of mine to see how they treated him. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I will try to summ up my logic here.
To start with, I am a real celiac (diagnised 11 years ago, before I had ever heard of "gluten free").

I stated that celiac desease can be trigered by small fragments of protein...below is a link to a paper showing protein fragments 18 peptides long trigering immune response in patients with celiac(you will have to look up the paper...posting a link from this tablet does not seem to be working).

Lancet.*1994 Mar 26;343(8900):758-61.
Wheat peptide challenge in coeliac disease.

I also stated that clarity ferm is a protease that just shears up the proteins that induce the immune response in celiacs.
Below is the description of clarity ferm coppied directly from whitelabs website...
WLN4000 CLARITY FERM

"CLARITY-FERM is a product containing a highly specific endo-protease which only cleaves polypeptides at the carboxyl end of the amino acid proline.* Protease is derived from*Aspergillus niger"

The current elisa tests used to validate gluten free claims are not capable of detdcting reactive gluten fragments in foods in whitch the protein has been hydrolized (like beer). So you should expect any clarity ferm treeted beer to "pass" the elisa test with flying colors...you should also expect it to ilicit an immune response in people with celiac desease. Have a look at tge link below for information on the elisa tests used to detect gluten.

http://mobile.beveragedaily.com/Reg...s-such-as-beer-researcher-claims#.U8svvmZlDMI

So I have provided a bit of evedence to support a few of my statements above...but the most compelling evedence for me is the cramping and diarrhea followed by 3 weeks of joint pain (this is my typical gluten response) that follow drinking beer treeted with clarity ferm...I know several others that have similar issues with clarity ferm treeted beer.[/QUOTE]

Very interesting. I will check those out. On the bright side, You can say your part of the 1%!:D Probably not the 1% you would want to be in but all the same:mug: I will look into these this tomorrow. I am always interested in this type of stuff seeing as it is nutrition issue and all.
 
catdaddy66 said:
Red ales, Belgian wheats... check! Keep those suggestions coming!


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Click to expand...


So I've decided to try this yeast on my clone of Lagunitas' A Lil Sumpin Sumpin. Wheat IPA that should have an OG of 1.070+. I hope by using recommended rehydration this yeast will get me down to 1.018 or so. Should be interesting!



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boydster said:
Pitch 2 packs would be my suggestion. Good luck!
Click to expand...


Don't have a second pack. After thinking it over, you're right. I need more yeast for this big of a beer. Making a starter of Nottingham instead. I'll use the S-33 on a beer between 1.045-1.055 instead that I want a bit sweeter.


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boydster said:
:eek: That's really warm! This yeast has stalled at 1.020 on me before, then one week later (after rousing the yeast cake) it came back with a second krausen and finished out. It was good beer, I like the flavor profile of the yeast, but it was a different behavior than I expected. I also started it at 63, raised to 65, then to 70 after a week. That was beer temp, not ambient. If you were at 75 ambient, your beer easily hit 80, probably 85 or higher during peak activity.
Click to expand...
I'm unsure where you received this information, but it's incorrect.
Toga said:
That S-33 fermented at 75ish will put off a lot of :ban: esters. It's recommended temp range tops out at 70 and even 70 is a tad to warm in my experience.
Click to expand...
I'm also unsure where you received this information, but again it's incorrect.

I've used S-33 for over a decade and have knocked out at 18°c, allowed free rise to 26°c (which occurs overnight), and bumped at resting period to 30°c to restart fermentation (restart occurs 7-10 days later). The strain finishes <1.013 if you're not rushing your product (which most of you likely are). Furthermore, S-33 does not flocculate during this "stall" period- yeast remains mostly in solution based on my cells counts.

NOTE: I know that this thread is almost 8 years old, but it needed some correcting.
 

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