S-05 and S-04 in an IIPA?

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

skeezerpleezer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2010
Messages
2,665
Reaction score
735
Location
Brookhaven, GA
I am planning to brew a 1.090 OG IIPA soon, maybe tomorrow or Wed. I have several packs of S-04, and a couple S-05 on hand and was thinking about using one of each (Mr. Malty says I need ~1.6 packs). I have seen some posts about using 2 different yeasts, but most included either a Belgian strain or a lager strain and talked about how the healthier one would dominate. Has anyone tried using S-04 and S-05 together? Or does anyone have any input on whether I should try this? I have enough of each that I don't have to use both if that is the recommendation by the yeast experts on here. Thanks in advance :mug:
 

jester5120

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
771
Reaction score
22
Location
DuBois
I'm not a yeast expert but my understanding of both of those strains are that they are relativiely close in giving a clean neutral flavor. The difference being that us-05 is more attenuative and us-04 is less. Which wouldn't necessarily throw any unique flavors but do just as you said and have us-05 dominate and dry the beer out more
 

NorthSide

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2010
Messages
82
Reaction score
1
Location
Chicago
i have wondered the same thing... and also, if you used the yeast cake leftover from 2 yeasts would you have a mutant strain that gives you the best of both yeasts?
 

944play

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2008
Messages
2,725
Reaction score
49
Location
Portland
Few would recommend harvesting the cake off a 1.090 beer. I'd use the US-05 unless there was a lot of adjunct in the recipe, in which case it'd be a toss-up.
 
OP
skeezerpleezer

skeezerpleezer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2010
Messages
2,665
Reaction score
735
Location
Brookhaven, GA
Thanks for the input. The recipe is pretty simple, lots of 2row, a bit of a few different crystals, 1 pound of sugar. Gonna mash upper 140s to help the yeast out.
 

bethebrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
505
Reaction score
35
Location
Portland
Thanks for the input. The recipe is pretty simple, lots of 2row, a bit of a few different crystals, 1 pound of sugar. Gonna mash upper 140s to help the yeast out.
For GOD sakes man dump the white sugar. What the hell? You work for C&H?

Mash at 154 the yeast don't need your help.

Although I like the idea mix and match yeast. Throw a pack of each in. Report back.
 

bethebrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
505
Reaction score
35
Location
Portland
i have wondered the same thing... and also, if you used the yeast cake leftover from 2 yeasts would you have a mutant strain that gives you the best of both yeasts?
which would dominate? i suspect us-05 would kick s-04's ass. that would be my guess. at least in later rounds...and for sure at any kind of lower temp no contest there...
 
OP
skeezerpleezer

skeezerpleezer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2010
Messages
2,665
Reaction score
735
Location
Brookhaven, GA
Mashing at 154 with no sugar with a ~1.090 OG will end up sweeter than I want for this beer. I could probably get by with the lower mash temp and no sugar, but would like to get this thing around 1.015-1.018 FG.

On a side note, I have only used sugar in one other ipa, which was a clone that came from the head brewer. If Vinny from Russian River thinks some sugar in Pliny is ok, then I am not going to tell him otherwise. (The mash temp was 151-152 also)
 

bethebrew

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
505
Reaction score
35
Location
Portland
Mashing at 154 with no sugar with a ~1.090 OG will end up sweeter than I want for this beer. I could probably get by with the lower mash temp and no sugar, but would like to get this thing around 1.015-1.018 FG.

On a side note, I have only used sugar in one other ipa, which was a clone that came from the head brewer. If Vinny from Russian River thinks some sugar in Pliny is ok, then I am not going to tell him otherwise. (The mash temp was 151-152 also)
Well if someone tells me to smoke crack and their name is Jamil I may listen or maybe not.

Tupacs US-05 enjoy your sour cider note.
 
OP
skeezerpleezer

skeezerpleezer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2010
Messages
2,665
Reaction score
735
Location
Brookhaven, GA
bethebrew said:
Well if someone tells me to smoke crack and their name is Jamil I may listen or maybe not.

Tupacs US-05 enjoy your sour cider note.
But if you were trying to get crack and one of the most knowlegable crackheads is the world recommended some would you listen to him?

On the cider note, i have seen all the arguments. I was hoping that keeping this to 5-7% would be fine. I have had a lot of Belgian Triples, and don't recall any cider from their 10-20% sugar. I wont say it can't happen, so if you have some insight to the % or why it happens that would be appreciated.
 

Ruskali

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Location
London
A bit of simple sugar is totally acceptable in a big IIPA. With no sugar and a mash temp of 154+, a 1.090 beer would be cloying. My best beer to date has been a 1.076 IIPA mashed at 152, with half a pound of sugar added at 5 min. Perfect body, kinda Kate Upton-ish.
 

Ruskali

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
22
Reaction score
0
Location
London
And my opinion, while I really like it, S-04 is better suited to browns and english beers where a more prominent malt character is desired.

I've done a couple 10g IPA batches, and fermented a carboy each of S-04 and US-05. Same wort different beers. I've preferred the US-05 for the IPA style, lets more of the hop character come through. I find the S-04 almost hides hops or something...

Plus Chico will finish a couple points lower.
 

Polboy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Messages
911
Reaction score
37
Location
Chicago
I've done a couple 10g IPA batches, and fermented a carboy each of S-04 and US-05. Same wort different beers. I've preferred the US-05 for the IPA style, lets more of the hop character come through. I find the S-04 almost hides hops or something...
Plus Chico will finish a couple points lower.
This is what im doing right now, im at 4th day of fermentation and both carboys are going strong
OP maybe you can try the same and use both yeasts but in separate carboys, then we can compare results, although im going to dry hop us-04 wits saaz and us-05 with cascade so i expect some differences from hops as well
For the sugar addition i like to add it later, around 48h after pitching, i think this is better for yeasts as you pitching them in 8-10 points lower wort, i added 2lbs (6.5%) for 10gal batch
 

ChessRockwell

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
558
Reaction score
32
Location
Canton
For GOD sakes man dump the white sugar. What the hell? You work for C&H?

Mash at 154 the yeast don't need your help.

Although I like the idea mix and match yeast. Throw a pack of each in. Report back.
Not to be rude but seriously, ignore this. You were on the right track with the lower mash temp and the simple sugar. Vinnie DOES have it right. I just keep it below 15% and it really helps dry it out and keep it from being overly sweet, esp. with something of that gravity, and no it won't taste cidery.
 

g-star

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2010
Messages
869
Reaction score
163
Location
PA
Well if someone tells me to smoke crack and their name is Jamil I may listen or maybe not.

Tupacs US-05 enjoy your sour cider note.
Wow, you are seriously mis-guided. Plain sugar in an IIPA is practically as important as the 2-row and crystal.
 

TarheelBrew13

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2011
Messages
215
Reaction score
8
Location
Charlotte
g-star said:
Wow, you are seriously mis-guided. Plain sugar in an IIPA is practically as important as the 2-row and crystal.
I disagree with sugar being a necessity in an IIPA and I have some company in that belief. If you ready the BJCP guidelines for Imperial IPA it states under ingredients, "Generally all-malt, but mashed at lower temperatures for high attenuation. Water character varies from soft to moderately sulfate.". Also, there are many commercial examples of the style that use nothing but malt with Avery's Maharaja being my personal favorite.

That said, using sugar in your IIPA isn't going to make it cidery and isn't a bad idea. It just makes the beer a little thinner than I like in an IIPA.
 

g-star

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2010
Messages
869
Reaction score
163
Location
PA
I've done it with and without sugar, and don't like the results of an all malt IIPA...comes out more like a hoppy barleywine IME. To each his own, I guess.
 

Srceenplay

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2011
Messages
219
Reaction score
4
g-star said:
i've done it with and without sugar, and don't like the results of an all malt iipa...comes out more like a hoppy barleywine ime. To each his own, i guess.
+1
 

Yooper

Ale's What Cures You!
Staff member
Admin
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jun 4, 2006
Messages
74,667
Reaction score
12,299
Location
UP/Snowbird in Florida
On the cider note, i have seen all the arguments. I was hoping that keeping this to 5-7% would be fine. I have had a lot of Belgian Triples, and don't recall any cider from their 10-20% sugar. I wont say it can't happen, so if you have some insight to the % or why it happens that would be appreciated.
Using up to 20% sugar, especially in Belgians, is fine. You won't get any cider notes.

I like a bit of sugar in an IIPA grainbill, as 100% malt bills, even when mashed at 147, can be a bit "thick" and not give a quaffable result. If I was making a barley wine, I wouldn't use any sugar at all as a barley wine should be rich and full bodied, but for an IIPA I think a pound or so to replace some of the malt is a great idea. I often do that.
 

TalkingGoats

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 28, 2012
Messages
104
Reaction score
0
Location
Salisbury Steak
My noobly suggestion is 7-15% washed long grain white rice.

In my ever changing house brew (All Cascade IPA) the hops are more 'forward' with the rice in the mash. The yeast cake was also harder with the rice.

Original
10lbs 2 Row
1lb C-20

2 Oz FWH
2 Oz 30 Min
2 Oz Flamout

---
Alternate
9 lbs 2 row
1 lb C20
1 1/2 lbs White Rice (Just rinsed in a colander with hot water)

2 Oz FWH
2 Oz @ 30 min
2 Oz @ Flameout

Both times I used US-05, Pitched 1 package at room temperature and it was done in 24 hours, kegged in a week. Both were delicious and cheap, but the rice beer was superior in a subtle way.

Also done a smash with 14lbs of 2 row and the same hop schedule. Boring but very drinkable. I too am curious to do the same thing but US-05 & S-04 to learn the flavors.
 
OP
skeezerpleezer

skeezerpleezer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2010
Messages
2,665
Reaction score
735
Location
Brookhaven, GA
Thanks for the input everyone. I will continue as planned with some sugar. I may just split into 2 carboys and use a pack of each yeast. I have done it before with my Zombie Dust recipe, and for the clone purposes liked the english better. The american had more flavor and was drier. I am interested in doing it again with a bigger beer.
 
Top