S-04 for NEIPA

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Jtvann

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Assuming this is the best dry yeast out there for neipa to date that's reasonable for home brewers to purchase.

If you were to use this for a neipa, would you ferment at a higher range to produce the fruity esters? Maybe around 70-72?
 
S-04 temperature range per the packet notes have 53.6F to 77F as the temperature range, ideally 59F to 68F.
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Why not use WY1318 liquid yeast? In NEIPAs it tastes a lot better than S-04.

If you're not set up for stirred starters yet, look up "shaken-not-stirred" starters.
Use a gallon wine jug and a quart of 1.040 wort. You only need to shake it vigorously every hour or 2 until nice and foamy. Do not use Fermcap when boiling the wort.

Start it the day before you brew and pitch the whole shebang into the chilled wort.

[EDIT]
You could save a little out for a new starter, but you'll need to process that small amount twice to get enough cell count.
First with a pint of wort. After that first step cold crash for a couple days in the fridge and decant the clear beer from the top. Add a liter of new wort to the slurry and go at it again.
 
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So4 is not to be fermented warm!

Under 66 for the first few days is recommended. A lot of people will say 64.

Some yeasts are more forgiving at high temps but most of the English yeasts will produce a lot of higher alcohols and rather unpleasant esters.
 
I've used it before in a NEIPA- it made a good beer. If that's what you have then use it. I've always fermented at the low end of the range, never at the upper end. Not saying you should not ferment at 72. Give it a try.
 
Why not use WY1318 liquid yeast? In NEIPAs it tastes a lot better than S-04.

If you're not set up for stirred starters yet, look up "shaken-not-stirred" starters.
Use a gallon wine jug and a quart of 1.040 wort. You only need to shake it vigorously every hour or 2 until nice and foamy. Do not use Fermcap when boiling the wort.

Start it the day before you brew and pitch the whole shebang into the chilled wort.

You could save a little out for a new starter, but you'll need to process it twice to get enough cell count. First with a pint of wort. After that first step cold crash for a couple days in the fridge and decant the clear beer from the top. Add a liter of new wort and go at again.


This is exactly how I've been brewing for the last year. I am low on DME and would like to brew sooner than it can get here. I'm not against trying something different and comparing my own tastes to decide if it's actually better. Brulosophy gets it's fair share of hate here, but in a direct comparison between 1318 and s-04, there was no statistical significance.

On a side note though ... why not use fermcap in making the starter?


So4 is not to be fermented warm!

Under 66 for the first few days is recommended. A lot of people will say 64.

Some yeasts are more forgiving at high temps but most of the English yeasts will produce a lot of higher alcohols and rather unpleasant esters.

That's kinda what I'm purposefully talking about doing. Those esters that it produce at higher temp could be desirable in a NEIPA, or so was my question and the point of this thread.
 
This is exactly how I've been brewing for the last year. I am low on DME and would like to brew sooner than it can get here. I'm not against trying something different and comparing my own tastes to decide if it's actually better. Brulosophy gets it's fair share of hate here, but in a direct comparison between 1318 and s-04, there was no statistical significance.

On a side note though ... why not use fermcap in making the starter?




That's kinda what I'm purposefully talking about doing. Those esters that it produce at higher temp could be desirable in a NEIPA, or so was my question and the point of this thread.

The esters it produces at higher fermentation temps are ones not desirable in any beer. If you enjoy beer that smells like yogurt go for it.

LAIII you can ferment warm and it produces some robust fruity esters and not that many higher alcohols. Same with 1469 and a few of the other more top cropping English yeasts.

So4, 007, 002, are others that can get really “hot” and harsh and fusely at elevated temps.

If you want some more fruit character try blending in some s-33 or K-97. POF- dry yeasts that can add some complexity and potentially interesting biotransformative layers to the beer.
 
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This is exactly how I've been brewing for the last year. I am low on DME and would like to brew sooner than it can get here. I'm not against trying something different and comparing my own tastes to decide if it's actually better. Brulosophy gets it's fair share of hate here, but in a direct comparison between 1318 and s-04, there was no statistical significance.

On a side note though ... why not use fermcap in making the starter?
I've not used S-04 for NEIPAs, no first hand experience with it, but I've read some brewers were not enthused by it. YMMV. ;)

If you have 1318 in stock, for a 5-6 gallon batch you could make a 1 liter vitality starter from a single pack or a saved slurry, on brew day. As long as the yeast is in good health and not too old. 4 hours seems to be optimal. Just collect some of the runnings to get a liter of 1.040, boil for 5 minutes to pasteurize, chill, and make your starter, either stirred or shaken. Shaken will offer both growth and revitalization, quicker than stirred, IMO.

The essence of the shaken-not-stirred method is to create an abundance of foam. The combined surface area of the foam phase (containing the yeast) is large, enveloping air (O2) inside the little bubbles. This allows for quick and efficient growth and revitalization. Do a keyword search for the method.
  1. You need a lot of air space relative to wort, 5:1 seems ideal
  2. You want to create foam, so use no Fermcap
  3. Let fresh air in before shaking each time, recap
  4. You need to shake it hard to create maximum foam
  5. Leave capped but loosened up a little so it can vent off excess pressure (it ferments a bit too, so CO2 is formed)
  6. Shake as often as possible, ideally as soon as the foam has receded
If you have pure O2 on hand, you can enrich the jug with it before shaking, give it a little blast. ;)

Before I pitch a pre-made, crashed starter, I often decant it, let the slurry come to room temps while mashing. Add 1.5 liter of diluted batch wort (~1.050-1.060) to the vessel and oxygenate that using the oxygen wand/stone for 10 minutes at a slow rate (1/32 liter/min). It will create a dense foam. Just stir it up a bit every few minutes. Let that sit for 1-2 hours (sometimes longer) until the batch is ready for pitching.

You could do something similar with a fresh pack... You may not get much growth but it should be super vital.
 
That's kinda what I'm purposefully talking about doing. Those esters that it produce at higher temp could be desirable in a NEIPA, or so was my question and the point of this thread.
Don't let people talk you out of trying something you're curious about. Using other people's anecdotal experience as a guide is fine but experimenting yourself is often the best way to perfect your methods. After all, taste is highly subjective and our worst sense.
 
I have one on tap now that is quite good. I fermented at 64, then brought it up to 70 for a few days, then down to 40 to let the yeast settle, then back up to 61 before dry hopping.
 
I'm a big fan of 1318 for neipas, but I will say I have used S04 with great results as well. I've even fermented S04 up to 75 F, and it was fine. Zero fusel alcohol or "off" flavors. It was actually pretty fantastic. I'm very sensitive to harshness, off flavors etc, but I, nor anyone I've shared it with (which has been about 10 people) could pick anything wrong with it. Maybe I got lucky, but heck, there are people fermenting lager yeast warm with great results. Maybe I got lucky, so maybe don't do what I did, but just wanted to throw this out there.
 
I'm a big fan of 1318 for neipas, but I will say I have used S04 with great results as well. I've even fermented S04 up to 75 F, and it was fine. Zero fusel alcohol or "off" flavors. It was actually pretty fantastic. I'm very sensitive to harshness, off flavors etc, but I, nor anyone I've shared it with (which has been about 10 people) could pick anything wrong with it. Maybe I got lucky, but heck, there are people fermenting lager yeast warm with great results. Maybe I got lucky, so maybe don't do what I did, but just wanted to throw this out there.

Did you pitch at 75 or ramp up to that temp?
 
Did you pitch at 75 or ramp up to that temp?
It was warm when I pitched it. Definitely 70-72. It went all the way up to 77 for at least a day. The only way to really tell if there was a difference would be to ferment one at 65 and one at 75, and see if you can tell the difference. I had zero off flavors in my beer. I had a few people tell me it was my best neipa yet, although I take all the comments I get from my friends and colleagues with a grain of salt.
 
I have one on tap now that is quite good. I fermented at 64, then brought it up to 70 for a few days, then down to 40 to let the yeast settle, then back up to 61 before dry hopping.

I have used 04 in my last few neipa batches. I ferment at 64 and ramp up after a couple days to 68. makes a great beer.
Two people have stated above that they ferment their NEIPA using US-04 around 64F then ramp up to either 68F or 70F for a few days. What would the benefit of this increase in temperature be? Do I need to add this step or can I just ferment to terminal gravity at 64F? And dry hop at 64F as well?
 
The benefits would be (1) finish fermentation quicker and (2) make sure the yeast attenuate beer within recommended range. This added step is just good practice but not required. You can dry hop at 64F although many people have had better results dry hopping neipas while doing a soft crash at 55F.
 
I've not tried S-04 in a NEIPA yet, but I have brewed a couple of malty lager-like ales with it fermented as high as 73 F. I honestly believe that the S-04 of today is a different yeast than it was just 3-4 years ago, as if Fermentis switched it out with something else. The new S-04 produces virtually zero esters even fermented warm. I don't know if I would use this for NEIPA because it turns out very clear for me. Maybe the hop oils with oats and/or wheat will haze it up. It is also a fast fermenter and will be done within 2-3 days in the 70s.
 
@dmtaylor - thanks for your insight on S-04. I did ferment my beer low around 64F and didn't end up with any noticeable esters. I agree S-04 wouldn't be my first choice for a NEIPA. I'd love to use WY1318 London Ale iii but I'm cheap so I rarely buy liquid yeasts. The only dry option for London Ale iii that I'm aware of is Verdant IPA, and none of the homebrew shops in my area carry it.

Does anyone know of a commercial beer that uses London Ale iii that would be suitable to harvest yeast from? I'm not super familiar with harvesting yeast from a bottle/can.
 
@dmtaylor - thanks for your insight on S-04. I did ferment my beer low around 64F and didn't end up with any noticeable esters. I agree S-04 wouldn't be my first choice for a NEIPA. I'd love to use WY1318 London Ale iii but I'm cheap so I rarely buy liquid yeasts. The only dry option for London Ale iii that I'm aware of is Verdant IPA, and none of the homebrew shops in my area carry it.
You might want to try Mangrove Jack M66 Hophead, it is potentially related to LAIII although the jury is still out.

P.S. Your last name is legendary in these parts...

https://www.google.com/search?q=kin...ljDqwQ_AUoAnoECAEQBA&biw=1422&bih=978&dpr=0.9
 
@dmtaylor - thanks for your insight on S-04. I did ferment my beer low around 64F and didn't end up with any noticeable esters. I agree S-04 wouldn't be my first choice for a NEIPA. I'd love to use WY1318 London Ale iii but I'm cheap so I rarely buy liquid yeasts. The only dry option for London Ale iii that I'm aware of is Verdant IPA, and none of the homebrew shops in my area carry it.

Does anyone know of a commercial beer that uses London Ale iii that would be suitable to harvest yeast from? I'm not super familiar with harvesting yeast from a bottle/can.
The obvious choice is Verdant IPA. Which was isolated by Lallemand from a brewery yeast that started life as 1318 and it has been developed and marketed by Lallemand particularly for use in NEIPA. Can you not order online? Postage for an 11g yeast pack should be minimal.
 
I'd love to use WY1318 London Ale iii but I'm cheap so I rarely buy liquid yeasts.
I bought 1 pack of 1318, more than 5 years ago. I'm still using that same yeast after brewing well over 30 NEIPAs, all fermented with yeast from that one pack.

The key in using liquid yeast successfully (and cheaply) lies in making large starters, and/or reusing from previous fermentations. You also need to store yeast slurries in a fridge, and keep em going.

Besides, S-04 isn't all that cheap anymore either, depending where you shop.

Does anyone know of a commercial beer that uses London Ale iii that would be suitable to harvest yeast from? I'm not super familiar with harvesting yeast from a bottle/can.
That would so counterproductive, you can readily buy the original yeast, fresh and in tip-top shape.

And you can use it for many more beers than just NEIPAs. ;)
 
I bought 1 pack of 1318, more than 5 years ago. I'm still using that same yeast after brewing well over 30 NEIPAs, all fermented with yeast from that one pack.

The key in using liquid yeast successfully (and cheaply) lies in making large starters, and/or reusing from previous fermentations. You also need to store yeast slurries in a fridge, and keep em going.

Besides, S-04 isn't all that cheap anymore either, depending where you shop.


That would so counterproductive, you can readily buy the original yeast, fresh and in tip-top shape.

And you can use it for many more beers than just NEIPAs. ;)
How you determine that you have enough yeast cells for pitching when using a refrigerated/frozen slurry. In the past, I’ve stored 5ml of yeast slurry/glycerin vials in my freezer (styrofoam box w/gel packs) but never really knew how many step up starters were needed to build enough yeast cells for a 5.75 gallon (in fermenter) batch with a gravity around 1.065 give or take so I stopped doing it. I’d like to revisit it again but I don’t have the means or patience for counting cells… looking for an alternative way of knowing I have enough yeast cells for pitching, perhaps a target volume of slurry after turning the stirplate off and seeing how much yeast settles to the bottom… I’d be interested in your process. FYI, I use a stir plate and a 2 liter Erlenmeyer flask for my final step starters, a smaller flask to start.
 
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