S-04 and Way too high attenuation

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RichBenn

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OK, I think I MUST have something, perhaps a measurement error, wrong here. But I can't find it.

I made a Mirror Pond clone that I made before. Used S-04 the first time, but the yeast was bad and never took off. So I threw S-05 in and it made a great beer that finished at about 1.009.

This time I used S-04, and the beer finished at 1.005-1.006!!! That's with starting at 1.050! That would mean, what, 88%? If anything, I thought S-04 should finish higher, not lower than S-05.

Now, I did mash at a pretty low temp both times, 151 F. dropping to 149F in 1 hour. I fermented at 62F (temp on glass carboy). The two other differences (other than yeast) was that I had adjusted the chloride/sulfate ration to be a bit more towards "balanced" malt to bitter instead of "very bitter", and I got alot of trub into the primary fermentor. But I can't fathom this kind of attenuation.

I did take the final reading after transferring into the keg, and I used a refractometer for both the initial and final readings. Yes, I adjusted the conversion from brix to S.G. by including the initial S.G. and using two different calculators, to be certain. And I calibrated the refractometer just before each reading using distilled water.

I usually get good attenuation, but i can't fathom this reading, even mashing as low as I do. So.... any thoughts on what went wrong? Could it be real? Is it a measurement error? Temperature error?

It does tastes pretty bitter on the tongue for a beer that hasn't carbed yet. I guess that would seem that way if, in fact, it's really that dry......

Rich
 
Did you compare the reading with a hydrometer?
There are so many ways the measurement could go
wrong, I generally don't worry about it unless it's
too high.

Ray
 
What was the mash temp. range for the first batch?

Mash temp range for the first batch was the same as the second. Maybe a degree higher, according to my notes.

Did you compare the reading with a hydrometer?
There are so many ways the measurement could go
wrong, I generally don't worry about it unless it's
too high.

Ray

I didn't compare the refractometer with a hydrometer this time (it broke), but when I tried it before, it was pretty much dead on. I just entered the before fermentation and after fermentation refractometer readings into the calculators to adjust, as I understand having alcohol messes up the post ferment reading without a correction.

I'll gladly drink the beer anyway, as I like a hoppy beer. But I was trying to get a bit more malt/hop balance for guests by using a different yeast and tweaking the water. Perhaps I should have upped the mash temp a bit and/or reduced the boil hops instead.

Rich
 
You could try backsweetening it with lactose if you beer is really as dry as you have measured

LOL! Something I would never do! My household's personal tastes are heavily against "sweet" of any kind. So even though I'd like to cater to guest's tastes, My wife and I will be drinking most of this keg. That's why I mash at the lower end of the temperature range. Was just trying to tone down the bitterness a bit.

I used FWH, and it appears, on my latest taste test at the proper serving temperature, that it's not as bitter as I initially thought. I think it'll be fine for others as well. It still needs another 2 weeks in the keg before I'll know for sure, but it's already tasting close to what I remember Mirror Pond to taste like. (I can see another blind taste in the works)

But that's not the issue as much as brewing by the numbers. They are not what I expected, and I wish I knew why. I've never seen S-04 reported apparent attenuation in the high 80's. So something was not right either in my process, a measurement, or this batch of yeast, or ??? I hate that!

I know, I know, RDWHAHB....:mug:
 
Update - I found out my new mashing thermo is WAY off! So I think I mashed between 3-5 degrees too low! The refractometer correction setting may have been off as well, so I can't trust those readings either.

I hate that! I had very accurate results before replacing a broken thermometer as well as breaking my hydrometer and using a refractometer instead. Now I have two batches of beers that are not what I was shooting for.

Moral of story - if you have an accurate temperature gage and/or hydrometer, don't break them! Or at least take the time to check calibration on the new ones at several different data points. Most of this stuff is manufactured cheaply now, which doesn't always bode well for quality.

Rich

Edit - after testing the thermometer against a known standard it was only about 1.5 degrees off. Still, the mash was at a lower temp than planned.
 
Most of this stuff is manufactured cheaply now, which doesn't always bode well for quality.

Rich

I hear that. I had a nice expense digital probe thermometer that worked great the first time i used it. But, after taking it out of the hot wort and dropping it into a bucket of chilled wort it never read correctly again. Go figure.
 
I don't mean this as a derail, but I've got an extract IPA resting right now that was pitched onto an S-04 cake that has way over-attenuated. Beer Smith said I should expect 1.062 -> 1.016, it finished at 1.007! Samples didn't taste infected, or any king of "off," just dry. The beer that generated the cake was a lower gravity beer that finished right on target.
 
I had issues with over attenuation, I wasnt getting the grainbed temp up enough so conversion continued in the kettle, and I collected my total volume before starting to heat the wort. I started mashing out with boiling water, this got the grainbed up in the 168° range, and I also started heating after collecting the first runnings, this brought my FG more inline with recipe specs.
 
I had alot of "new" variables going on in my mash (one that started this thread). I apparently had an "off" thermometer(1.5 degrees high at 150F, now that it's tested), S-04 (usually use an American Ale yeast), first time using a "thin" (over 1.5 to one) mash, and the first time using Calcium Choride instead of a combo of other salts to balance my water.

I batch sparge, and after reading a bunch, I was worried about not getting a proper "mash out" temp and started using almost boiling water to effect that as well. I usually dump the first runnings into the boil, like Azcoob. But nothing else in my procedure was different, and it's the first time I've experienced this heavy of attenuation. (I know not how much attenuation with my measurement errors, but it surely tasted like it).

Captain Damage: Maybe it was partially S-04's fault on mine as well, especially if you saw an extract over attenuating. The last time I used S-04, I threw in some US-05 after 48 hours of inactivity. The US-05 started right up as usual, saving the beer(the S-04 was inert). With two bad experiences with S-04, it may be off my list of goto yeasts.
 
I've done many side-by-side fermentations with S05 and S04 splitting 10g batches. With the same wort S04 doesn't attenuate as far at the same temps as S05, however it is much faster at attenuating and, usually, starting as well. It also clears better and quicker reminiscent of Notti. I've never had an S04 get much over 80% attenuation that I can recall. I have, however, experienced S05 achieving higher.

Thanks for the reminder to recalibrate my thermometers!
 
Slightly off topic, but unless you are using professional grade equipment that you calibrate fir every use, then you need to accept some flexibility in the readings. For example, I'm pretty sure my hydrometer is reading too high by a point two.
 
The day before I brew, I usually calibrate 4 thermometers, and check my hydrometer, thus far the hydrometer paper thingy has stayed put and is accurate. The thermometers usually check out accurate, occasionally I need to tweak one, I have both a digital thermometer and the 4 dial ones, two dials have a blue marker dot on the face and get calibrated in ice water, I use these while chilling the wort to pitching temps, the other two have red dots and get calibrated in boiling water and are used in the mash and for checking water temps. The digital one reads accurate at both boiling and freezing, but I still like to verify with more than one thermometer. Taking the time to calibrate everything was also a factor in correcting my early brew issues
 
Slightly off topic, but unless you are using professional grade equipment that you calibrate fir every use, then you need to accept some flexibility in the readings. For example, I'm pretty sure my hydrometer is reading too high by a point two.

"Professional" equipment, traceable to NIST, has a calibration interval on the order of 12 months. (varies by manufacturer and type). However, given the possibility of moisture ingression on the inexpensive digital probes we use, it's never a bad idea to do an ice bath(32 F) and boiling(adjusted for altitude and barometric pressure) check more frequently.

I've purchased a couple of Taylor digital thermometers in the past, and out of box they were always accurate to better than 0.3 F, even though they are inexpensive, made in China devices. But the non name brand(also Chinese) I bought after breaking my good themo I just found out is 3 degrees high at freezing, 1 degree high at boiling, and about 1.6 degrees high at 150 F. That's too much error for my taste. While we may not sweat a degree off in our mash, another couple of degrees in the same direction due to a faulty thermo can add up to a changed beer. That's exactly what happened to me.

My new hydrometer is off, like yours. The old one had zero error with distilled water. Seems I break one a year, so if anyone knows an accurate brand that doesn't cost a fortune, let me know!

Rich
 
I had issues with over attenuation, I wasnt getting the grainbed temp up enough so conversion continued in the kettle, and I collected my total volume before starting to heat the wort. I started mashing out with boiling water, this got the grainbed up in the 168° range, and I also started heating after collecting the first runnings, this brought my FG more inline with recipe specs.

+1. same problem here with overattenuation. Mashing out fixed that!
 
My new hydrometer is off, like yours. The old one had zero error with distilled water. Seems I break one a year, so if anyone knows an accurate brand that doesn't cost a fortune, let me know!

Rich

I brought some distilled water to my LHBS and tested them right there on the counter, I bought two that day, having that backup hydrometer has virtually guaranteed I will never break my primary.
 
Even more off topic, but why not a refractometer? I've never used one, but having bought 7-8 hydrometers I could have bought 2 or more refractometers.
 
I might get a refractometer, I have just never had that "crap I wish I had a refractometer" moment, maybe Wifey-Claus will toss one in the Ole stocking this year!
 
I've had good luck using a Vee Gee refractometer before, the cheaper ones I've seen tend to be pretty flimsy.
 
I brought some distilled water to my LHBS and tested them right there on the counter, I bought two that day, having that backup hydrometer has virtually guaranteed I will never break my primary.

I like your way of thinking! :mug:

Even more off topic, but why not a refractometer? I've never used one, but having bought 7-8 hydrometers I could have bought 2 or more refractometers.

I bought one after the last hydrometer broke. Then I discovered that you really need to enter a correction factor for measuring wort vs. just sugar and water or grape juice. This is in addition to calibrating to distilled water.

This correction factor seems to vary with the refractometer. One has to measure a typical wort with a hydrometer and the refractometer, and then this "factor" can be calculated (in BeerSmith). But since I was without hydrometer, I used the default for this factor, which can have me off several points.

In addition, after there is alcohol (after fermentation starts), you have to do another adjustment, taking in consideration the starting gravity vs. the final refractometer reading. And the resolution is not quite as good on the refractometer as a hydrometer for the values of interest, IMHO.

That all said, it's way more convenient that using a hydrometer. Automatic temperature calibration (no cooling wort), needs only one or two drops, easier to clean, also usable for wine, etc. I just got caught blind because of not having the right adjustment factor(because I broke my hydrometer!:eek:).

Rich
 
Morebeer.com has them at 115, unfortunately they're out of stock probably until the end of all winemaking for the season.
 
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