Rye flavor- malted vs flaked? crystal too?

[SanPancho]

so i love the flavor of a good, spicy rye. been trying to get a good rye lager going and while the flavor is there, it doesnt seem to pop like i have experienced in other rye beers.

ive gone 40% rye and had decent flavor, but i also mixed flaked and malted. is there a consensus as to which one of those adds more rye flavor? and is a small addition of crystal rye a good idea to help get it to really standout?

ive also come to believe that if im not getting a ton of rye flavor at 40% then its a problem with either-

maltster? typically i get briess
yeast? lagers in general soften flavors, but maybe try different strain?
recipe mix? flaked vs malted vs crystal
ions? go balanced or favor chloride?

anybody with strong opinions and experience with rye?

 

[JohnSand]

I've made only about four batches of Rye Pale, always used a mix of flakes and malt, always had good results. But the rye is subtle, though I'm using only a couple of pounds. You can chew the grains to get an idea of the flavor. Flakes are believed to have more flavor, but can gum up the mash. I haven't used crystal rye, but I plan to. I'm told it has licorice notes.

 

[JohnSand]

I also read the threads on Rye Ales for ideas.

 

[corkybstewart]

I only use malt, never tried the flakes. I can promise you that with 40% malted rye , 60% Pilsner malt you'll have great rye taste. That's the combo I have on tap right now. I served it at the homebrew club this week and it got excellent reviews. And I use all Hersbrucker for hops.

 

[IslandLizard]

Do you mill your own grain? If not, pour crush may be the cause of lack of rye character. Rye kernels are very small, they drop through most LHBS mills mostly uncrushed. Running it through twice won't make much difference.

I mill small kernel grains such as rye and wheat, as well as all flaked goods, separately from barley on a 0.024" gap on my 1.5" diameter 2-roller mill.

Flaked rye has a bit stronger, rawer flavor than malted. Similar to the difference between malted wheat and flaked wheat.

To prevent a stuck mash when using rye, wheat or flaked goods in larger percentages (>25%), incorporate a beta-glucanase rest at 98 -113°F for 20' or a combined beta-glucanase/protein rest around 122F for 15 minutes. Extending the last, combined rest could impact head forming proteins, so don't overdo it. Adding plenty of rice hulls also keeps the mash lush and helps with lautering.

 

[corkybstewart]

Do you mill your own grain? If not, pour crush may be the cause of lack of rye character. Rye kernels are very small, they drop through most LHBS mills mostly uncrushed. Running it through twice won't make much difference.

I mill small kernel grains such as rye and wheat, as well as all flaked goods, separately from barley on a 0.024" gap on my 1.5" diameter 2-roller mill.


To prevent a stuck mash when using rye, wheat or flaked goods in larger percentages (>25%), incorporate a beta-glucanase rest at 98 -113°F for 20' or a combined beta-glucanase/protein rest around 122F for 15 minutes. Extending the last, combined rest could impact head forming proteins, so don't overdo it. Adding plenty of rice hulls also keeps the mash lush and helps with lautering.

I mill my rye malt first with as little a gap as I can get, and I mill it twice. I've tried rice hulls, but I don't see enough difference to keep using them(at least not for rye). I just plan for a slow runoff and plan my day accordingly.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Do you have to add rice hulls to the mash when dealing with rye?

 

[jmark]

Do you have to add rice hulls to the mash when dealing with rye?

Probably depends on how much rye... I usually throw in a few handfuls of hulks when using anything above 15-20% of the grist. Once forgot to do that on a bill with about 40% rye and my HERMS just stick solid... added a bunch of hulls, stirred like the mash owed me money (to quote Yooper I believe) and got the recirculation started again... haven't forgotten since!

 

[IslandLizard]

I mill my rye malt first with as little a gap as I can get, and I mill it twice. I've tried rice hulls, but I don't see enough difference to keep using them(at least not for rye). I just plan for a slow runoff and plan my day accordingly.

If you a high use enough % of rye (or wheat), there comes a point where rice hulls are needed or your mash looks like a freshly poured concrete pad with an inch of wort on top.

You'll need at least 1/2 a pound (that's a relatively huge volume!) in a 5 gallon batch to see any appreciable difference. In our group grain buy we split a few bales of rice hulls, so we all got plenty around for a while.

I've brewed wheat ales with 65% wheat (malt and flakes) in them, using a beta-glucanase and protein rest and ended up not needed hulls. I batch sparge 2x and the lauters were slow, maybe an hour altogether. But hulls would have sped that up I think.

Most rye I've used in a batch was 50% (malt and flakes), and it was stickier than the 65% wheat. Hulls had to be used, or there was not going to be any boil or beer later. I do mill everything pretty fine, no BIAB, and get lots of shredded husks. That has something to do with slow lauters in those gummy mashes.

Yep, just take your time. It's worth it!

 

[z-bob]

I only use malt, never tried the flakes. I can promise you that with 40% malted rye , 60% Pilsner malt you'll have great rye taste. That's the combo I have on tap right now. I served it at the homebrew club this week and it got excellent reviews. And I use all Hersbrucker for hops.

I love rye whisky and rye bread (no caraway, please); I haven't tried brewing with it yet. I think your choice hops might be the answer. Use spicy continental hops instead of American or British varieties to accentuate the spiciness of the rye.

I bought a pound of rye crystal malt last year and have no idea what I'm going to do with it, LOL.

 

[corkybstewart]

I love rye whisky and rye bread (no caraway, please); I haven't tried brewing with it yet. I think your choice hops might be the answer. Use spicy continental hops instead of American or British varieties to accentuate the spiciness of the rye.

I bought a pound of rye crystal malt last year and have no idea what I'm going to do with it, LOL.

It is my uneducated version of a German roggensbier. Very tasty.

 

[theQ]

I only use malt, never tried the flakes. I can promise you that with 40% malted rye , 60% Pilsner malt you'll have great rye taste. That's the combo I have on tap right now. I served it at the homebrew club this week and it got excellent reviews. And I use all Hersbrucker for hops.

Can you tell me more about hop schedule and yeast ?! Would that be a red ale ?

 

[corkybstewart]

Can you tell me more about hop schedule and yeast ?! Would that be a red ale ?

That takes me way back. When I brew most of my German beers my hop schedule probably isn't authentic German but it works for me. For a 5 gallon batch I would add an ounce(maybe 1.5)of Hersbrucker for 60 minutes, and another ounce at 20. That's it. These beers are not about the hops. And I use White Labs or wyeast hefeweizen yeast.
I'm planning my first brewing session in 3 years and it will be a roggenbier first, then a hefeweizen. I love these beers and getting a good commercial one where I live is tough.

 

[z-bob]

I brewed something like a Roggenbier about a month ago. I got a good deal on pale rye malt at my LHBS; $5 for a 10 pound bag.

I used 52% rye, 26% dark Munich, 15% 2-row, a little crystal 40, and one ounce of Midnight Wheat for color adjustment. German Northern Brewer hops added at 30 minutes and just a little more at 5 minutes. Fermented with K-97 German ale yeast.

The beer is quite good but it doesn't taste like I expected. (it's not spicy like rye whiskey) It also has a slightly syrupy mouthfeel even though it is not sweet at all. I think that might be from all the beta-glucan.

 

[theQ]

That takes me way back. When I brew most of my German beers my hop schedule probably isn't authentic German but it works for me. For a 5 gallon batch I would add an ounce(maybe 1.5)of Hersbrucker for 60 minutes, and another ounce at 20. That's it. These beers are not about the hops. And I use White Labs or wyeast hefeweizen yeast.
I'm planning my first brewing session in 3 years and it will be a roggenbier first, then a hefeweizen. I love these beers and getting a good commercial one where I live is tough.

I hear you, the main reason I started was to brew Belgians and thought they were too expensive.! I love Hefes too. I won't mind using your best hefe as a reference. I also find the rye extremely interesting in beer. I used in IPA even in some NEIPA. Love the spiciness and I will do the roggensbier, simple grain bill and hops.Any special rests since you use the hefe yeast ?

 

[corkybstewart]

I hear you, the main reason I started was to brew Belgians and thought they were too expensive.! I love Hefes too. I won't mind using your best hefe as a reference. I also find the rye extremely interesting in beer. I used in IPA even in some NEIPA. Love the spiciness and I will do the roggensbier, simple grain bill and hops.Any special rests since you use the hefe yeast ?

I've done the decoction rests, but in reality a straightforward, simple mash around 152F worked best for me. I've used significant rye in porters and IPAs. When I was a very active brewer I bought it by the 25 kilo sack so I used it in a variety of beers. Wheat also, one of my most popular beers at parties was my red wheat saison.

 

[dmtaylor]

*pokes head in*

Rye is not spicy.

*quietly backs out of the room again*

 

[theQ]

*pokes head in*

Rye is not spicy.

*quietly backs out of the room again*

Yes, it's not! It does have a "spice" effect on beer ... citrus/unique!

 

[theQ]

I've done the decoction rests, but in reality a straightforward, simple mash around 152F worked best for me. I've used significant rye in porters and IPAs. When I was a very active brewer I bought it by the 25 kilo sack so I used it in a variety of beers. Wheat also, one of my most popular beers at parties was my red wheat saison.

I never bought rye by big bag but that is a good idea as I love it. What was that famour rye wheat saison. Let me quess 40% Rye 20% Wheat 40% 2Row ?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If it adds to a sense of mouthfeel I'm all for it! Plenty of diastatic power is also a plus. But I've heard you'd best use loads of rice hulls with it. The sensory profile for it on the Briess website seems to indicate (to me at least) that it simply doesn't have anything going for it on the flavor contribution side. So there must be something other than flavor in its favor.

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_RyeMalt.pdf

 

[dmtaylor]

If it adds to a sense of mouthfeel I'm all for it! Plenty of diastatic power is a plus. But I've heard you'd best use loads of rice hulls with it. The sensory profile for it on the Briess website seems to indicate that it simply doesn't have anything going for it on the flavor side. So there must be something other than flavor in its favor.

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_RyeMalt.pdf

Thick slurpy body (if you use a lot of it) and the creamiest foamy head you've ever seen (even if you just use a little bit).

And yes, you'll want to use rice hulls for anything more than about 10% of the grist.

 

[corkybstewart]

I never bought rye by big bag but that is a good idea as I love it. What was that famour rye wheat saison. Let me quess 40% Rye 20% Wheat 40% 2Row ?

Red wheat, as opposed to white wheat. It gave the saison a beautiful red color and nice wheaty flavor.

 

[corkybstewart]

*pokes head in*

Rye is not spicy.

*quietly backs out of the room again*

I agree with the lack of spice, but it has a distinctive flavor.

 

[ba-brewer]

If it adds to a sense of mouthfeel I'm all for it! Plenty of diastatic power is also a plus. But I've heard you'd best use loads of rice hulls with it. The sensory profile for it on the Briess website seems to indicate (to me at least) that it simply doesn't have anything going for it on the flavor contribution side. So there must be something other than flavor in its favor.

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_RyeMalt.pdf

seems funny that they use the word rye to describe the flavor, spicy rye to boot. You would think it should have a lot of rye bread flavor but the flavor wheel had that as relatively low

I once had a beer judge write that my wheat beer was spicy and accused me of adding rye. Something like if you add rye to your beer you need to say so.

Recently did a rye IPA which had chinook hops, I think the combination did have a little black pepper like spiciness to the flavor. I believe the wheat that got the spicy comment also had chinook too but can't say for sure.

 

[Jag75]

I've never used Rye but I'm planning on an Irish Red with some Rye in the recipe .

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Thick slurpy body (if you use a lot of it) and the creamiest foamy head you've ever seen (even if you just use a little bit).

And yes, you'll want to use rice hulls for anything more than about 10% of the grist.

How much is required whereby to achieve the goal of a slurpy body?

 

[dmtaylor]

How much is required whereby to achieve the goal of a slurpy body?

About 25-30% will do the trick. I have made a few roggenbiers with 40-50% and it is very noticeable at that point.

Rye also adds an ugly gray color to the beer. It doesn't have a powerful flavor. Bready and mildly earthy. But the gray color will be noticeable in any amount, unless you're brewing a dark beer where it won't matter.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The thought of a Rye Pills suddenly intrigues me. But the thought of a somewhat grayed color scares me.

 

[monkeymath]

Huge fan of rye in bread; love baking sourdough bread with 80-100% rye. Naturally, I've used it in my brewing as well.

I have used raw rye in two of my beers, where I toasted the raw grain in the oven for a bit (just 20 minutes at 120 celsius iirc), which smelled as if I had been baking cookies. The impact on flavour was not as big as I had hoped, but it does give a creamy mouthfeel and awesome head retention.

And my last beer has been sort of a rye porter, using malted rye (without toasting it at home), where the creaminess is really wonderful. It's just got a bit of a tang, likely from using too much roasted malt (carafa), which I'm not so keen on. But it's been in the bottle for only two weeks, so I'll have to wait and see where it's going. I also used some crystal rye and roasted rye in this one, but tasting them on their own, they both kinda sucked. I just love Crisp Crystal (150 EBC), so I'll stick to that in the future.

Both malted and unmalted are a bit of a PITA in terms of crushing, so maybe I'll have to try the flaked one as well (although it's hard to find at grocery stores).

 

[corkybstewart]

The thought of a Rye Pills suddenly intrigues me. But the thought of a somewhat grayed color scares me.

View attachment 716218

Serve it in an opaque mug, stein, etc. My wife loved dark beer as long as she couldn't see it was dark! The grayish tint never bothered me or any of my friends.

 

[Jag75]

The beer is actually gray ?

 

[dmtaylor]

The beer is actually gray ?

Not exactly. It just looks dirty. Some say it has a slight blue tint. Yellow plus blue makes an add grayish tint in my experience. Still yellow or orange or red or brown, but with a grayish tone.

 

[z-bob]

The thought of a Rye Pills suddenly intrigues me. But the thought of a somewhat grayed color scares me.

View attachment 716218

Add just enough Carafa Special III (etc) to turn it dark without really affecting the flavor

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Add just enough Carafa Special III (etc) to turn it dark without really affecting the flavor

I've got to see what the gray is all about first.

 

[Jag75]

I've got to see what the gray is all about first.

Right lol!

 

[Immocles]

Add just enough Carafa Special III (etc) to turn it dark without really affecting the flavor

Thats exactly what I did, but I didn't realize the whole grayish color thing. I just didn't want a pale beer, haha. So I tossed 1oz of Carafa special II in a 3G batch to darken it up a bit.

I use both crystal rye and rye malt in a great little rye lager. I found that I enjoy about 15-18% rye malt, and a max of 3-4% crystal. One could go much higher on the malt, but I find that my personal sweet spot. The crystal gets really squirrelly over 5% though.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

To make it a bit darker, jack up the body (mouthfeel), and mask the grayness by incorporating @z-bob's idea of using Carafa III, I just dreamed up Ryetoberfest.

 

[Jag75]

Does anyone have a pic of this grayish beer ?

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm almost sorry I brought up the gray thing now. Sorry guys, I apparently haven't brewed a pale rye beer in quite a long time. I did make a really mean rye stout a couple years ago though. Won an award entered as an "oatmeal" stout.

 

[okiedog]

Very interesting, this discussion about rye. I have used flaked rye in a couple of beers, but really couldn't pick out much, if any noticeable flavor contribution. I think I used 1 lb. in a 5 gal. batch. Now, my interest is piqued. I'll have to try a recipe with a mix of flaked and malted rye, at 30-40% of the grist. I like Hersbrucker for hopping German beers as well. Thanks for the inspiration, y'all.