Rodenbach Grand Cru Clone

[huckdavidson]

Are there any updates on whether the recipe works better with both WY1056 and WY3763, or with 1056 alone?

Also is MD and secondary needed if going with 1056 alone?

Thanks for the great recipe! I'm going to try it in January.

1056 alone won't produce a sour beer. If you want to reproduce this beer you'll need to either pitch 1056, wait until FG is reached, then pitch 3763 and wait till it achieves the sourness you want -or- you can try pitching 3763 alone as it has an ale yeast in the mix. If doing the later it may take > 1yr to develop.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

1056 alone won't produce a sour beer. If you want to reproduce this beer you'll need to either pitch 1056, wait until FG is reached, then pitch 3763 and wait till it achieves the sourness you want -or- you can try pitching 3763 alone as it has an ale yeast in the mix. If doing the later it may take > 1yr to develop.

Sorry, I meant 3763 alone (I'll edit that in my post). Thanks. I might try just pitching 3763 alone. If doing so, will I need to use any maltodextrine? And would there be any need for a secondary? Thanks!

 

[huckdavidson]

Sorry, I meant 3763 alone (I'll edit that in my post). Thanks. I might try just pitching 3763 alone. If doing so, will I need to use any maltodextrine? And would there be any need for a secondary? Thanks!

If your beer hasn't developed enough sour character or is thin in nature after aging at length you might try adding some maltodextrin to increase the sourness and add some body. Once added it will take an additional period of time to develop due to the slow nature of brett and pedio which will be active at that time.

A secondary is useful when making sour beers as you will want to transfer off the yeast cake and provide a container with relatively small head space to limit oxygen exposure. Even though brett consumes the autolysised yeast byproducts it's best to limit the amount of dead sacc that needs to be cleaned up. There are brewers who have reported successfully souring and aging the beer on the original yeast cake but that may or may not have desirable effects.

Sours in general take time and monthly taste/gravity and pH measurement cycles to track the beers progress. Documenting what you are measuring and tasting will help you track and communicate how the beer is progressing and when it's time to bottle.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Thanks, @huckdavidson. When transferring the the secondary, should you transfer some of the yeast cake as well, or is there enough in suspension?

 

[huckdavidson]

Thanks, @huckdavidson. When transferring the the secondary, should you transfer some of the yeast cake as well, or is there enough in suspension?

There should be enough in suspension but it doesn't hurt to siphon a small blob from the cake as well.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

There should be enough in suspension but it doesn't hurt to siphon a small blob from the cake as well.

Thanks once again!

 

[Bottoms_Up]

@cactusgarrett (or anyone else), I input all your ingredients into a calculator, assuming 70% efficiency and a volume of 6 gallons, and using your SRM numbers. I came up with a total SRM of 26.4 rather than the 16 SRM that you indicated. Did you actually mean 26 rather than 16? Why such a difference?

I'm concerned because that is a significant difference in the color, and I would like to achieve the ruby red if possible.

 

[Shenanigans]

@cactusgarrett (or anyone else), I input all your ingredients into a calculator, assuming 70% efficiency and a volume of 6 gallons, and using your SRM numbers. I came up with a total SRM of 26.4 rather than the 16 SRM that you indicated. Did you actually mean 26 rather than 16? Why such a difference?

I'm concerned because that is a significant difference in the color, and I would like to achieve the ruby red if possible.

Good that you bumped this tread I'm almost due to do my 1 year sample.
After 6 months it wasn't sour enough.

As pre your question; I scaled mine to match the same OG as the OP and the color in Beersmith was 30.5 ECB which is about 15.5 SRM and it is a redish color.
26.4 would indeed be more brownish.

What calculator are you using; maybe it is spitting out ECB numbers?

Edit: looking at my recipe again it looks like I left the Munich malt out, can't remember why

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Good that you bumped this tread I'm almost due to do my 1 year sample.
After 6 months it wasn't sour enough.

As pre your question; I scaled mine to match the same OG as the OP and the color in Beersmith was 30.5 ECB which is about 15.5 SRM and it is a redish color.
26.4 would indeed be more brownish.

What calculator are you using; maybe it is spitting out ECB numbers?

Edit: looking at my recipe again it looks like I left the Munich malt out, can't remember why

I used the SRM (Morey) calculations, the same ones used in Beersmith:

Beer Color: Understanding SRM, Lovibond and EBC

I use all my own calculations for almost everything (I enjoy math) - so I built my own beer recipe program. I double-checked the calculations and they do come to 26.4. Here are the detailed calculations (Note the only weight not exactly same - but very close - is Pilsner in order to make it all balance out - otherwise I would need to increase the volume a little):

Grain	W (lb.)	Lovibond	MCU	SRM
Caramunich III	0.50​	56​	4.67​	4.29​
Special B	0.50​	180​	15.00​	9.56​
Wheat Malt	0.50​	2​	0.17​	0.44​
Aromatic	0.50​	26​	2.17​	2.54​
Munich II	3.00​	10​	5.00​	4.50​
Vienna	5.00​	3.5​	2.92​	3.11​
Pilsner	4.35​	2.00​	1.45​	1.92​
				26.36​
Where:
MCU = (weight of grain in lb) * (color of grain in degrees Lovibond)/(Volume in gallons = 6.0)
SRM = 1.4922 * (MCU ** 0.6859) [Morey Equation]

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I used the SRM (Morey) calculations, the same ones used in Beersmith:

I plugged the identical information into Beersmith and I get an SRM of 15.9! I will contact Brad Smith and see if he can explain the difference. I might be missing something subtle.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I plugged the identical information into Beersmith and I get an SRM of 15.9! I will contact Brad Smith and see if he can explain the difference. I might be missing something subtle.

I did some more analysis and the difference lies in the approach, which wasn't clear from the description in the link.

In my approach, I used Morey's calculation for each separate fermentable and then totalled the individual SRM values.

In the approach used in BeerSmith, all the individual MCU's are first totalled, and THEN the Morey formula is used. The results in this approach are identicial with the results from BeerSmith.

Mystery solved!

 

[Bottoms_Up]

What types of unfermentables can be effectively used to sweeten the Rodenbach? Has anyone tried pasteurizing and then blanding?

 

[Shenanigans]

Good that you bumped this tread I'm almost due to do my 1 year sample.
After 6 months it wasn't sour enough.

As pre your question; I scaled mine to match the same OG as the OP and the color in Beersmith was 30.5 ECB which is about 15.5 SRM and it is a redish color.
26.4 would indeed be more brownish.

What calculator are you using; maybe it is spitting out ECB numbers?

Edit: looking at my recipe again it looks like I left the Munich malt out, can't remember why

How time flies.
The 1 year sample wasn't very sour so I left it for another 6 or 7 months and finally bottled it a week ago.
It finished at 0.998 so it's about 8%.
I just had a sample bottle; while not as complex as Rodenbach Grand Cru I'm still very happy with it.
It's not fully carbed yet so I guess in another week it will taste even better

 

[Bottoms_Up]

How time flies.
The 1 year sample wasn't very sour so I left it for another 6 or 7 months and finally bottled it a week ago.
It finished at 0.998 so it's about 8%.
I just had a sample bottle; while not as complex as Rodenbach Grand Cru I'm still very happy with it.
It's not fully carbed yet so I guess in another week it will taste even better

@Shenanigans I have some questions:

Did you carb it in bottles?
Did you have to add new yeast?
What was your carbing process?
Did you need to sweeten it?

I have a five gallon batch in a glass carboy that will be a year old in January. I've been wondering how best to bottle it.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Did you carb it in bottles?
Did you have to add new yeast?
What was your carbing process?

I've had great success using GoFerm and CBC-1.
An alternate, which I've used with succsss also (the above is easier) is doing an acid shock starter to prep yeast for bottle conditioning.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I've had great success using GoFerm and CBC-1.
An alternate, which I've used with succsss also (the above is easier) is doing an acid shock starter to prep yeast for bottle conditioning.

Thank you - great advice. Did you have to artificially sweeten it as well?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Thank you - great advice. Did you have to artificially sweeten it as well?

"have to" is relative. I didn't, but could/should very well have to stay true to the orginal.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

"have to" is relative. I didn't, but could/should very well have to stay true to the orginal.

Yes, when I made it many years ago, I found it to be very dry. I wasn't sure how to sweeten it without causing further fermentation. I ended up using a non-fermenting sugar which seemed to work.

 

[Shenanigans]

@Shenanigans I have some questions:

Did you carb it in bottles?
Did you have to add new yeast?
What was your carbing process?
Did you need to sweeten it?

I have a five gallon batch in a glass carboy that will be a year old in January. I've been wondering how best to bottle it.

I bottled it at the same time as a 5 month old brett/saison beer.
I had an old pack of LalBrew Farmhouse yeast in the fridge out of date by about a year.
So I rehydrated it in 150ml of luke warm water and 1/3 of the resulting slurry went into the bottling bucket for each beer.
From the other third I made a 500ml starter and then kept in the fridge for later.

It's been 11 days now but both beers are carbing slowly but surely. The Rodenbach clone is going faster which I assume is because it has less alcohol.
The Saison/Brett beer ended up at 12.5% but the Farmhouse yeast should just about handle it.

I didn't back sweeten the Rodenbach clone, it's dry but not watery and tastes very good actually.
To be a Rodenbach clone it needs to be sourer, maltier and with less alcohol; I'm not sure how they acheive that.
Probably because they use a different yeast blend and stop the fermentation earlier.
Maybe next time I'll co-pitch it with a low attenuation yeast so the Roselare blend has more sugars to work with.

​

 

[Shenanigans]

"have to" is relative. I didn't, but could/should very well have to stay true to the orginal.

Do Rodenbach back sweeten or do you mean you would have to do it to end up at their FG?

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I bottled it at the same time as a 5 month old brett/saison beer.
I had an old pack of LalBrew Farmhouse yeast in the fridge out of date by about a year.
So I rehydrated it in 150ml of luke warm water and 1/3 of the resulting slurry went into the bottling bucket for each beer.
From the other third I made a 500ml starter and then kept in the fridge for later.

It's been 11 days now but both beers are carbing slowly but surely. The Rodenbach clone is going faster which I assume is because it has less alcohol.
The Saison/Brett beer ended up at 12.5% but the Farmhouse yeast should just about handle it.

I didn't back sweeten the Rodenbach clone, it's dry but not watery and tastes very good actually.
To be a Rodenbach clone it needs to be sourer, maltier and with less alcohol; I'm not sure how they acheive that.
Probably because they use a different yeast blend and stop the fermentation earlier.
Maybe next time I'll co-pitch it with a low attenuation yeast so the Roselare blend has more sugars to work with.

​

Thanks @Shenanigans. Do you think it would have soured more if you let it stand for another few months?

 

[Shenanigans]

Thanks @Shenanigans. Do you think it would have soured more if you let it stand for another few months?

I can't say for sure but I doubt it as it was already 1.5 years in the secondary and the FG was 0.998.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I can't say for sure but I doubt it as it was already 1.5 years in the secondary and the FG was 0.998.

Yeah, I don't think much happens after 1.5 years. What was your gravity after the primary fermentation finished? In other words, did you include a lot of non-fermentables?

 

[Shenanigans]

Yeah, I don't think much happens after 1.5 years. What was your gravity after the primary fermentation finished? In other words, did you include a lot of non-fermentables?

I had an OG of 1.058 and pitched US-05 and Roeselare at the same time.
After two weeks it was down to 1.005 and then I transferred it to the secondary where it stayed for about 18 months.
It definitely got sourer between the 1 year and 18 month mark.
Would be interesting to do 100% Roeselare blend but maybe it would be too slow to get started and I could risk an infection.
However with a big enough starter why not?

The biggest pain with experimenting with these type of beers is the wait for the results.
I'm not getting any younger

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I had an OG of 1.058 and pitched US-05 and Roeselare at the same time.
After two weeks it was down to 1.005 and then I transferred it to the secondary where it stayed for about 18 months.
It definitely got sourer between the 1 year and 18 month mark.
Would be interesting to do 100% Roeselare blend but maybe it would be too slow to get started and I could risk an infection.
However with a big enough starter why not?

The biggest pain with experimenting with these type of beers is the wait for the results.
I'm not getting any younger

I used Roeselare on my last two batches (one made in January, the other in June), without adding any other yeast and without making a starter. They both started fairly quickly the day after brewing. I understand that you can't make a proper starter with Roeselare because of the balance and nutriments used. I did make a starter in the first batch I made years ago, and it turned out OK. I see now that a starter is not even needed, as long as the package of yeast is fairly new. The yeast for the last brew had a month left in the "best by" date.

Just my own impression, but I feel your gravity should have been much higher after two weeks. This could indicate that you didn't include enough non-fermentables and may be why it didn't sour enough. The lacto and/or Brett feeds on the non-fermentables (I forget which one, and I'm talking about sugars that regular ale yeast cannot use but which either or both Brett and lacto do use but slowly). My gravity for the batch made in January was 1.022 after the main fermentation finished after 15 days. My gravity for the batch made in June was still at 1.016 after 25 days. I added non-fermentables such as Crystal 60 and Crystal 120 in my last batch. My intended OG for both batches was 1.057. I ended up a little higher.

 

[Shenanigans]

I used Roeselare on my last two batches (one made in January, the other in June), without adding any other yeast and without making a starter. They both started fairly quickly the day after brewing. I understand that you can't make a proper starter with Roeselare because of the balance and nutriments used. I did make a starter in the first batch I made years ago, and it turned out OK. I see now that a starter is not even needed, as long as the package of yeast is fairly new. The yeast for the last brew had a month left in the "best by" date.

Just my own impression, but I feel your gravity should have been much higher after two weeks. This could indicate that you didn't include enough non-fermentables and may be why it didn't sour enough. The lacto and/or Brett feeds on the non-fermentables (I forget which one, and I'm talking about sugars that regular ale yeast cannot use but which either or both Brett and lacto do use but slowly). My gravity for the batch made in Jnauary was 1.022 after the main fermentation finished after 15 days. My gravity for the batch made in June was stil at 1.016 after 25 days. I added non-fermentables such as Crystal 60 and Crystal 120 in my last batch. My intended OG for both batches was 1.057. I ended up a little higher.

Well I brewed close enough to the recipe in the original post.
It's actually sour enough just not as sour as Rodenbach; I would rather that than having it too sour.
For me Rodenbach is just perfect so not easy to exactly replicate.

I don't have a fresh pack of yeast anymore, just some I saved from the starter I made for the last beer.
So no idea how the ratios of the different components have changed but I'm a cheapskate and will reuse it instead of buying a new pack
I will look into modifying the recipe a bit and adding a few more unfermentables, maybe some more Special B or Caraaroma.
Also a different co-yeast that has less attenuation than US-05 and mash a little higher.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Well I brewed close enough to the recipe in the original post.
It's actually sour enough just not as sour as Rodenbach; I would rather that than having it too sour.
For me Rodenbach is just perfect so not easy to exactly replicate.

I don't have a fresh pack of yeast anymore, just some I saved from the starter I made for the last beer.
So no idea how the ratios of the different components have changed but I'm a cheapskate and will reuse it instead of buying a new pack
I will look into modifying the recipe a bit and adding a few more unfermentables, maybe some more Special B or Caraaroma.
Also a different co-yeast that has less attenuation than US-05 and mash a little higher.

Adding more Special B should help in adding unfermentables. My understanding is that mashing a little higher will give you less unfermentables.

 

[Biergarden]

I have a batch of a Flander Red in one of my fermenters now. I used the White Labs Flemish Blend over the Wyeast. I did consult with a microbiologist at White Labs to clarify the practice of fermenting with a regular ale yeast vs pitching the culture right into the primary itself. Whereas there is already a saccharomyces strain in the blend already, there was no real motivation for me to pitch another yeast prior the blended culture. I added untoasted American oak chips at the end of the boil in a mesh nylon sack to sanitize the oak and then transferred that right into the fermenter post 30 minutes of a slow whirlpool.
So far, I'm liking how it's coming along from the sample port. I'll package it in May this year.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I have a batch of a Flander Red in one of my fermenters now. I used the White Labs Flemish Blend over the Wyeast. I did consult with a microbiologist at White Labs to clarify the practice of fermenting with a regular ale yeast vs pitching the culture right into the primary itself. Whereas there is already a saccharomyces strain in the blend already, there was no real motivation for me to pitch another yeast prior the blended culture. I added untoasted American oak chips at the end of the boil in a mesh nylon sack to sanitize the oak and then transferred that right into the fermenter post 30 minutes of a slow whirlpool.
So far, I'm liking how it's coming along from the sample port. I'll package it in May this year.

May sounds awfully early to me. My understanding is that you should let it sit a year to a year and a half. I made one once and bottled it about 8 months later, and it was still a long way from finishing. I had to cheat and add lactic acid to it. I've made two 5-gallon batches since - one last January, and one in June. I'm leaving them both for at least a year before bottling.

 

[Biergarden]

May sounds awfully early to me. My understanding is that you should let it sit a year to a year and a half. I made one once and bottled it about 8 months later, and it was still a long way from finishing. I had to cheat and add lactic acid to it. I've made two 5-gallon batches since - one last January, and one in June. I'm leaving them both for at least a year before bottling.

It improves with age for sure, but by experience, it's fine like that. If there is any doubt, try it as it goes along in your fermenter.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

It improves with age for sure, but by experience, it's fine like that. If there is any doubt, try it as it goes along in your fermenter.

As mentioned, I did find it was far from complete, even after 8 months. You don't get the full lacto effect at that point.

 

[Biergarden]

As mentioned, I did find it was far from complete, even after 8 months. You don't get the full lacto effect at that point.

Okay, good for you.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Okay, good for you.

Just trying to be helpful. Otherwise, why did you post?

 

[Biergarden]

Just trying to be helpful. Otherwise, why did you post?

Again, thank you for your valuable input. It serves the community greatly

 

[Biergarden]

As mentioned, I did find it was far from complete, even after 8 months. You don't get the full lacto effect at that point.

Thank you very much for your valued opinion.

 

[mashpaddled]

May sounds awfully early to me. My understanding is that you should let it sit a year to a year and a half. I made one once and bottled it about 8 months later, and it was still a long way from finishing. I had to cheat and add lactic acid to it. I've made two 5-gallon batches since - one last January, and one in June. I'm leaving them both for at least a year before bottling.

I'm of the same mindset. I don't think about packaging sour beer ever before a year and really try to push out 18-24 months especially when fermenting in a carboy. (Rules change when you're talking about a barrel, especially a small barrel.) The hardest part of brewing sour beer is absolutely finding the patience to let beer sit for an extended period of time when you go from filling a keg 2-3 weeks out versus sitting on a beer for 12+ months.

I don't care so much about how sour I can get the beer as much as how much flavor I can develop. I like a softer acidity in my beer which I develop through controlling oxygen exposure, extended aging and a fairly high hopping rate.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

I'm of the same mindset. I don't think about packaging sour beer ever before a year and really try to push out 18-24 months especially when fermenting in a carboy. (Rules change when you're talking about a barrel, especially a small barrel.) The hardest part of brewing sour beer is absolutely finding the patience to let beer sit for an extended period of time when you go from filling a keg 2-3 weeks out versus sitting on a beer for 12+ months.

I don't care so much about how sour I can get the beer as much as how much flavor I can develop. I like a softer acidity in my beer which I develop through controlling oxygen exposure, extended aging and a fairly high hopping rate.

What process do you use to bottle? Do you add fresh yeast and dextrose? How much?

 

[mashpaddled]

What process do you use to bottle? Do you add fresh yeast and dextrose? How much?

Yes, fresh yeast and table sugar.

Adding the right amount of sugar is the tricky part. The *right* amount depends on the age of the beer and temperature over the life of the beer. I would start out with 1.5oz/gal which seems to do a good job. If you ferment in a warmer space you may want to get closer to 2oz/gal.

Typically I keep some dried wine yeast (EC-1118 or KV-1116) for bottling. Just a little tap out from the pack into the top of the liquid in the bottle seems to work. I let bottles ferment out for about four to six months. I have used a little slurry from a regular ale yeast and done just fine.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Yes, fresh yeast and table sugar.

Adding the right amount of sugar is the tricky part. The *right* amount depends on the age of the beer and temperature over the life of the beer. I would start out with 1.5oz/gal which seems to do a good job. If you ferment in a warmer space you may want to get closer to 2oz/gal.

Typically I keep some dried wine yeast (EC-1118 or KV-1116) for bottling. Just a little tap out from the pack into the top of the liquid in the bottle seems to work. I let bottles ferment out for about four to six months. I have used a little slurry from a regular ale yeast and done just fine.

After a year of fermenting, shouldn't almost all of the sugars be gone by then? So one would think that the amount of sugar to add should remain a fixed amount, depending on the amount of carbonation desired.

I was planning to siphon it into a temporary large container, add the sugar and yeast, and then siphon it to the bottles. I wonder if one could bottle after say, one year, and let the bottles sit for another few months to finish ageing? Would that work?