killian
Well-Known Member
I have a belgian dark strong that I'm thinking thinking about adding some dregs from a rodenbach to. would the dregs be enough to add some funky characteristics?
rodenbach dregs
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Orangevango
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It would be better if you cultured a starter from the dregs I belive, just be aware that anything you use for this beer needs to be extra thoroughly santized afterwards to avoid funkin up your other beers.
killian
Well-Known Member
I'm sure building up from a starter would be better but I'm wondering what kind of flavors I might get. I'm thinking I might just keep adding the dregs from each bottle of rodenbach that I drink and add some fresh wort eventually.
I used original rodenbach. I just poured out (into a glass) all but about a quarter inch of the beer then put in some DME and water and topped with foil. Has been sitting for a couple days. Doesn't look like much is going on yet.
My plan is to rack off a couple gallons (probly one with a few oak cubes maybe new ones maybe ones that have been soaking in wine for 6 months) of a normal batch (IPA or Porter) I have conditioning onto the rodenbach starter after that gets going and let that sit for a long while.
I really have no idea what I am doing or what I will get, I am just bored with the normal rotation.
My plan is to rack off a couple gallons (probly one with a few oak cubes maybe new ones maybe ones that have been soaking in wine for 6 months) of a normal batch (IPA or Porter) I have conditioning onto the rodenbach starter after that gets going and let that sit for a long while.
I really have no idea what I am doing or what I will get, I am just bored with the normal rotation.
I use the dregs from Orval on my Drunk owl in my pull-down. It takes 4-6+ months for it to do it's work, but is worth it.
If you build up a starter one bug may reproduce quicker than the others so I always just go with the dregs.
After pitching a couple batches of wine in the last week, I have been thinking about how we homebrewers are conditioned to the idea you have to have high pitching rates. This doesn't necessarily carry over into winemaking or brewing with bugs.
We learn that the saccharomyces cerevisiae we use for fermenting wort into (regular) beer require a minimal number of generations in the fermenter (10 or fewer) to produce a satisfactory product. The cultivated brewer's yeast is selected for its limited ester production, moderate attenuation, alcohol tolerance, and willingness to flocculate. These strains require high pitching rates so they can grow to sufficient numbers to ferment the wort in a timeframe where contamination doesn't take hold before the reproductive phase is complete, in order to ferment cleanly and completely without becoming overly stressed from a lack of nutrients.
On the other hand, winemaker's yeast is selected for rapid fermentation, alcohol tolerance, high attenuation, and ability to ferment at a wide range of temperatures (most primary fermentations I have seen do not use any temperature control). Since it is selected for rapid fermentation ability, low pitching rates are acceptable as long as there is sufficient oxygen and nitrogen in the must for the yeast to reproduce.
Brettanomyces seems to share more characteristics with wine yeast than beer yeast. Beyond that, if unwanted infections from wild (usually brettanomyces) yeast or lactobacillus are any guide, these bugs are quite good at reproducing rapidly in oxygen-deficient, nutrient-deficient environments where brewer's cultivated saccharomyces cerevisiae isn't.
I wonder if building a starer would have the *opposite* effect of what is intended -- in a nutrient rich environment, the brettanomyces and bacteria which favor an oxygen rich and nutrient rich environment may reproduce more quickly than those which don't. This would cause the overall culture to be dominated by bugs that favor a nutrient rich, high pH, oxygen-rich environment, whereas your beer is a nutrient deficient, alcohol rich, low pH environment devoid of oxygen.
We learn that the saccharomyces cerevisiae we use for fermenting wort into (regular) beer require a minimal number of generations in the fermenter (10 or fewer) to produce a satisfactory product. The cultivated brewer's yeast is selected for its limited ester production, moderate attenuation, alcohol tolerance, and willingness to flocculate. These strains require high pitching rates so they can grow to sufficient numbers to ferment the wort in a timeframe where contamination doesn't take hold before the reproductive phase is complete, in order to ferment cleanly and completely without becoming overly stressed from a lack of nutrients.
On the other hand, winemaker's yeast is selected for rapid fermentation, alcohol tolerance, high attenuation, and ability to ferment at a wide range of temperatures (most primary fermentations I have seen do not use any temperature control). Since it is selected for rapid fermentation ability, low pitching rates are acceptable as long as there is sufficient oxygen and nitrogen in the must for the yeast to reproduce.
Brettanomyces seems to share more characteristics with wine yeast than beer yeast. Beyond that, if unwanted infections from wild (usually brettanomyces) yeast or lactobacillus are any guide, these bugs are quite good at reproducing rapidly in oxygen-deficient, nutrient-deficient environments where brewer's cultivated saccharomyces cerevisiae isn't.
I wonder if building a starer would have the *opposite* effect of what is intended -- in a nutrient rich environment, the brettanomyces and bacteria which favor an oxygen rich and nutrient rich environment may reproduce more quickly than those which don't. This would cause the overall culture to be dominated by bugs that favor a nutrient rich, high pH, oxygen-rich environment, whereas your beer is a nutrient deficient, alcohol rich, low pH environment devoid of oxygen.
bump for this great point. have you spoken with anyone or had any breakthroughs with this since it was posted last april? i've gotta a starter going with dregs from many diff't brett beers and you seriously got me thinking. hmmmm.
so dregs directly into your aging batches is the best way to go in your opinion-
EDIT: looks like AnOldUR had the same response back from Wyeast themselves:
"Herman,
It is not recommended to make a starter with this blend. You will
definitely throw off the balance of cultures in the blend. Basically,
you will increase the Saccharomyces population w/o increasing any of the
other cultures.
The second technique you listed would be better than a starter, but once
again, you will not be propagating all of the cultures. This time, you
would be increasing the Saccharomyces culture and maybe some of the
lactic acid bacteria.
Let me know if you have other questions.
Jess Caudill "
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/wyeast-brett-fusion-blends-114826/
denimglen
Well-Known Member
I've done the same also. Sat for about a week on the stirplate and nothing happened (well still smelled like fresh wort and no change to the amount of trub/bacteria cake). I don't know if it should have sat longer or the conditions were wrong or something.
I just binned it and bought a smack pack of Roselare and called it a day.
after reading a section of WildBrews last night i came across an interesting area. It says that the Roselare strain Wyeast sells does NOT have brett in it and that Rodenbach relies on the wood barrels to supply the brett. Maybe i'll post what it says verbatim later.
There were some other points that were questionable and seemed contradictory. I'll try to find these points later when at home.
and another point, since Rodenbach is filtered prior to bottling are there any active yeast cells even in the bottle? Perhaps this is why there's no activity??
There were some other points that were questionable and seemed contradictory. I'll try to find these points later when at home.
and another point, since Rodenbach is filtered prior to bottling are there any active yeast cells even in the bottle? Perhaps this is why there's no activity??
Martin2D
Well-Known Member
Rodenbach is pasteurized, which is why there should be no activity.
remilard
Well-Known Member
Yup, along with most or all of the other commercially available sour beers from Flanders. La Folie is probably your best bet for Flanders style dregs.
I've been doing some research in this area lately, since I'm planning on doing a series of wild beers all based on isolated commercial strains rather than using the usual suspects.
La Folie in the 750mL can be cultured, but it's difficult to find. The bombers definitely cannot as they are sterile filtered. If you can find the bottle conditioned La Folie, it is your best bet as the bugs are rumored to have come from Rodenbach originally.
All of the Belgian Flanders beers seem to be pasteurized these days
, I ordered a pile of Rodenbach Grand Cru in hopes of culturing it up but it appears to be a dead beer. La Roja from Jolly Pumpkin may be bottle conditioned, I am not sure, so I plan to try it. Sang Royal from Cascade brewing is definitely bottle conditioned, it says so right on the label, so I plan on culturing up that one.
My plan is to streak YPD+Lysine plates to culture the brettanomyces and bacteria, and MYPD plates to isolate saccharomyces type yeast. The isolated bacterial colonies will go into YPD stabs while saccharomyces and brettanomyces strains will be inoculated to normal slants. Having separate cultures will allow me to grow each separately and inoculate the wort with the right ratios (4:1:1 bacteria:brett:sacc cell counts).
As for making a starter from dregs, since most folks don't do their own yeast ranching at home -- you could make a small starter with Lysine added to it and incubate at a nice warm 85*F. This will suppress the growth saccharomyces type yeast. Then that starter could probably be built up again without Lysine and pitched. Lysine is available in the supplement section of grocery and drug stores. If anybody tries this be sure to let us know how it works out.
La Folie in the 750mL can be cultured, but it's difficult to find. The bombers definitely cannot as they are sterile filtered. If you can find the bottle conditioned La Folie, it is your best bet as the bugs are rumored to have come from Rodenbach originally.
All of the Belgian Flanders beers seem to be pasteurized these days
, I ordered a pile of Rodenbach Grand Cru in hopes of culturing it up but it appears to be a dead beer. La Roja from Jolly Pumpkin may be bottle conditioned, I am not sure, so I plan to try it. Sang Royal from Cascade brewing is definitely bottle conditioned, it says so right on the label, so I plan on culturing up that one.My plan is to streak YPD+Lysine plates to culture the brettanomyces and bacteria, and MYPD plates to isolate saccharomyces type yeast. The isolated bacterial colonies will go into YPD stabs while saccharomyces and brettanomyces strains will be inoculated to normal slants. Having separate cultures will allow me to grow each separately and inoculate the wort with the right ratios (4:1:1 bacteria:brett:sacc cell counts).
As for making a starter from dregs, since most folks don't do their own yeast ranching at home -- you could make a small starter with Lysine added to it and incubate at a nice warm 85*F. This will suppress the growth saccharomyces type yeast. Then that starter could probably be built up again without Lysine and pitched. Lysine is available in the supplement section of grocery and drug stores. If anybody tries this be sure to let us know how it works out.
One way to find out... I have some Roeselare I saved, I will streak some on a plate and see what grows, we should know in about a week.
If they indeed get the Brett from barrels that would indicate Brettanomyces Bruxellensis would be the right species to use.Next month I hope to have isolated the Brettanomyces sp. from Russian River Consecration 2x1, I plan to use that strain for my Flanders beers because I really like the character. If that works out I will inoculate some oak cubes and can send those out to folks who want to try it.
Tonedef131
Well-Known Member
It most definitely is, as are all of their beers. I pitch the dregs from nearly every bottle of JP that I drink and there is always a substantial amount of sludge in the bottom. Although I don't really consider La Roja to be a Flanders Red, adding the dregs to a beer will give it that unique Midwestern funk.
Great info, thanks. I love that beer, it's definitely unique and funky, I ordered mine online from Oak Tree Wines.
Martin2D
Well-Known Member
That used to be my local! Ahh how I do miss it...oh well...only 1.5 hours away still.
no ****? i live like 20 minutes away from South Plainfield. Marketplace in East Brunswick has cheaper prices on all their beers and is closer to me. If you wanted to try to save some $$$ on a bulk buy I'm sure I could help you out. After all, it's the least I can do after the used corn whiskey barrel help!
edit: after seeing their sale price i don't know if anyone can beat that price of $10.49...
Tonedef131
Well-Known Member
They have Panil Barrique there too which has live cultures in it.
wild brews page 171:
"According to Martens, the Rodenbach culture contains only Saccharomyces cerevisiae and lactic acid producing bacteria - no Brettanomyces or other wild yeasts. Likely when developing that Rodenbach culture, the microbiologists isolated any naturally occuring wild yeasts, preferring thos microorganisms to come from the wooden barrels."(Sparrow, 2005)
"According to Martens, the Rodenbach culture contains only Saccharomyces cerevisiae and lactic acid producing bacteria - no Brettanomyces or other wild yeasts. Likely when developing that Rodenbach culture, the microbiologists isolated any naturally occuring wild yeasts, preferring thos microorganisms to come from the wooden barrels."(Sparrow, 2005)
I just brewed a belgian strong two weeks ago (OG was 1.100+) and pitched some Abbey Ale yeast as well as a vial of WL's Sour Blend. I'll probably add some dregs to it over the next year, but I probably won't do starters on them, just straight from the bottles.
I'm also looking at those 20L (5+ gallon) oak barrels, and may get one to play around with. Anybody have one of those?
I'm also looking at those 20L (5+ gallon) oak barrels, and may get one to play around with. Anybody have one of those?
smellysell
Well-Known Member
IN!!!!!!!!!!
santacruzbob
Active Member
I'm also in! After trying to capture some wild yeast for the last month (maybe it's too cold or I'm doing something wrong) I could really use something verified.
killian
Well-Known Member
I ended up using WYEAST STRAIN: 3278 | Belgian Lambic Blend.
