Rodenbach Clone

[BrewCityBaller]

I know this is post is sort of old, but I'm actually getting married the day after tomorrow and so I wanted to ask if
(a) you still had some of that Flanders' Red, and, if yes,
(b) you wanted to be my friend?

As it happens, I am certain that there are still bottles of this from way back in 2016. My friend drinks one every year on his anniversary. Unfortunately, I don't think I can ask for some back!

Congrats on your wedding though. I hope COVID has not affected your plans too much.

 

[monkeymath]

As it happens, I am certain that there are still bottles of this from way back in 2016. My friend drinks one every year on his anniversary. Unfortunately, I don't think I can ask for some back!

Congrats on your wedding though. I hope COVID has not affected your plans too much.

Eh, it was worth a shot ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Good thing I currently have a Flanders Red fermenting myself.

Thanks man tbh I was never too keen on "hosting" a wedding: too many people to take care of, way too much attention on the bridal couple. Sure I would've liked having a few more of our close friends around, but with COVID related restrictions in place, it was much easier to draw the line at "best man + maid(s) of honour only", no hurt feelings of people that didn't make the cut.
Had a wonderful day, can't say I've missed a thing. And we can still throw a party at a later point in time, if we feel so inclined.

 

[dawn_kiebawls]

I bottle all my sours in large format bottles (champagne, bombers, etc.). For all my aged beers (whatever sits longer than 6 months) I re-yeast at bottling time with CBC-1 and GoFerm. Works like a charm. If i didn't use GoFerm, I would get extra insurance of good priming by doing an acid shock starter for the bottling yeast.

I'll probably use 12oz bottles because that's what I have and it will make this batch stretch further (at least, that's the plan). I really like bottle priming (putting a measured amount of sugar directly into each bottle). Would I be able to just add dry GoFerm and CBC-1 into the bottle at the same time?

I still have a few months before this batch meets bottles but I have a golden sour ready to go as soon as I get some time. Thanks again!

 

[Manuel Julian Rodríguez]

I brewed a batch of this in february but it didnt sour at all, but I bougt some lacto this week, if I pitch it?, will it sour?

 

[andrewmaixner]

I brewed a batch of this in february but it didnt sour at all, but I bougt some lacto this week, if I pitch it?, will it sour?

No. The recipe lists 16 IBU. commercially sold lacto is inhibited at between 1 and 8 IBU.
Your easiest bet would be to pitch some propped up bottle dregs from something with know agressive pedio and come back in 3 months, or, do nothing and wait 1 year to taste it again.
Roselare is known for NOT souring quickly on it's first use.

Alternately, you could make a gallon of unhopped similar red/brown wort, sour it to 3.1 pH with something easy like Lacto Plantarum (goodbelly), and try blending. Most commercial sour beers are blended to taste.

For more in-depth information, read American Sour Beers, and the MilkThefunk wiki.

 

[Beer666]

No. The recipe lists 16 IBU. commercially sold lacto is inhibited at between 1 and 8 IBU.
Your easiest bet would be to pitch some propped up bottle dregs from something with know agressive pedio and come back in 3 months, or, do nothing and wait 1 year to taste it again.
Roselare is known for NOT souring quickly on it's first use.

Alternately, you could make a gallon of unhopped similar red/brown wort, sour it to 3.1 pH with something easy like Lacto Plantarum (goodbelly), and try blending. Most commercial sour beers are blended to taste.

For more in-depth information, read American Sour Beers, and the MilkThefunk wiki.

When blending do i need to let the 2 beers sit for a while to mix or can i rack both and bottle? I have a quite a few batches fermented with Roeselare and so far none are sour so going to blend them with a fast sour.

 

[Manuel Julian Rodríguez]

No. The recipe lists 16 IBU. commercially sold lacto is inhibited at between 1 and 8 IBU.
Your easiest bet would be to pitch some propped up bottle dregs from something with know agressive pedio and come back in 3 months, or, do nothing and wait 1 year to taste it again.
Roselare is known for NOT souring quickly on it's first use.

Alternately, you could make a gallon of unhopped similar red/brown wort, sour it to 3.1 pH with something easy like Lacto Plantarum (goodbelly), and try blending. Most commercial sour beers are blended to taste.

For more in-depth information, read American Sour Beers, and the MilkThefunk wiki.

actually I made it with more or less 8-10 IBU, maybe could it sour?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I brewed a batch of this in february but it didnt sour at all, but I bougt some lacto this week, if I pitch it?, will it sour?

Do you mean you brewed in Feb this year? Souring with pedio is slow. Leave it a year then give it a try. As mentioned, there's no point pitching lacto.

 

[Shenanigans]

Do you mean you brewed in Feb this year? Souring with pedio is slow. Leave it a year then give it a try. As mentioned, there's no point pitching lacto.

Yes it will take more in the region of a year to get a decent level of sourness.
If you really can't wait you can add some lactic acid but that would be a bit one dimensional.
Have a bit of patience and wait if you can, in the end you will be happy you did.
You could of course split it in half if you really want to pre-sour some already and lock the other half away for at least another 6 months before trying a bottle.

 

[Beermeister32]

I did a 5 gallon batch soured with Roeselare and aged it 2 years. I didn’t care for the flavor and dumped it along side our industrial building in the weeds where it belonged.

So, a couple years go by and I ended up buying some Rodenbach Sour Ale the other day at Total Wine and More. I do this periodically when samples come up.

Popped open one of those big 500ml cans, and there’s that flavor again. Ech. Next time I want a sour, I’ll stick with an Oud Bruin...

 

[Gnomebrewer]

@Beermeister32 Are you trying to make us all cry?

 

[andrewmaixner]

When blending do i need to let the 2 beers sit for a while to mix or can i rack both and bottle? I have a quite a few batches fermented with Roeselare and so far none are sour so going to blend them with a fast sour.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Blending

 

[Gnomebrewer]

If your fast sour is lacto only, there will still be sugars that the Brett from the Roeselare will eat, which could lead to bottle bombs. To blend in the bottle, you'll need to either:
- add some glucoamylase to the fast sour so it's fully fermented
- use Brett in the fast sour as well, and age it for at least a few months
- calculate how much residual food there is for the Brett in the fast sour, and use the right amount so that it replaces the priming sugar (not very hard to do, but might not be the ratio of each beer you were looking for)
- pasteurise the Roeselare beer
- something else???

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Just a thought....before committing to blending with a fast sour, try some of the Roeselare beer with a little bit of malt vinegar - it might give the sourness you're looking for.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

One more option to the fast sour + Roeselare blend is to use a diastatic yeast in the fast sour. The residual sugar would still need to be accounted for, but not nearly as much as with a non-diastatic yeast.

 

[Beer666]

If your fast sour is lacto only, there will still be sugars that the Brett from the Roeselare will eat, which could lead to bottle bombs. To blend in the bottle, you'll need to either:
- add some glucoamylase to the fast sour so it's fully fermented
- use Brett in the fast sour as well, and age it for at least a few months
- calculate how much residual food there is for the Brett in the fast sour, and use the right amount so that it replaces the priming sugar (not very hard to do, but might not be the ratio of each beer you were looking for)
- pasteurise the Roeselare beer
- something else???

Sorry i should of given you a bit more info. The batches fermented with Roeselare finish around 1006 and the fast sours finish at 1010. Perhaps i can get away with using a quarter of the normal amount of sugar for priming?
A friend of mine described my Roeselare beers as like a bretted English bitter so perhaps i should just drink them as they are and brew more to mature. At least then i can refill my demijohns. I do have a few batches that are in the right ballpark so not all is lost. Have learned a lot in the past few years reading on here so i am sure i can improve. Thanks for your help.

 

[Shenanigans]

I plan on finally brewing this sometime this Summer.
A 5 gallon batch is planned but I was thinking why not use my 15 gallon pot and brew up 10 gallons and make a split batch.
Half of the original recipe and the second half with a "normal" yeast for something that will be ready to drink quicker.

Has anyone done this?
Any suggestions what style this grain bill would work for?

Some kind of Belgian dubbel? I have M31 which should be like WLP570 the Duvel strain and can add some boiled dark homemade candisyrup to the fermenter.

An English ale? I have Wlp002, Wlp007, London III and Verdant
16 IBUs might be bit low for these styles?

Any other suggestions?

Thanks.

 

[monkeymath]

I plan on finally brewing this sometime this Summer.
A 5 gallon batch is planned but I was thinking why not use my 15 gallon pot and brew up 10 gallons and make a split batch.
Half of the original recipe and the second half with a "normal" yeast for something that will be ready to drink quicker.

Has anyone done this?
Any suggestions what style this grain bill would work for?

Some kind of Belgian dubbel? I have M31 which should be like WLP570 the Duvel strain and can add some boiled dark homemade candisyrup to the fermenter.

An English ale? I have Wlp002, Wlp007, London III and Verdant
16 IBUs might be bit low for these styles?

Any other suggestions?

Thanks.

I didn't brew the original recipe, but something similar. Twice, actually. Bottled a pint of each straight when the young beer was transferred to secondary. Yeast strains were Imperial B48 "Triple Double" (supposedly equivalent to WY 3787) and WY 1469 West Yorkshire.

I'd say it wasn't bad, but a touch too rich - there's lots of specialty malts and the mash temp was rather high in order to leave some residual extract after primary fermentation. Low bitterness doesn't help either.

I think the two goals of
(a) having something tasty after only a few weeks
(b) having something tasty after a year and a half
are a bit opposed here. But I might very well be wrong, this is just my impression.



a) having

 

[andrewmaixner]

I plan on finally brewing this sometime this Summer.
A 5 gallon batch is planned but I was thinking why not use my 15 gallon pot and brew up 10 gallons and make a split batch.
Half of the original recipe and the second half with a "normal" yeast for something that will be ready to drink quicker.
Has anyone done this?
Any suggestions what style this grain bill would work for?
Some kind of Belgian dubbel? I have M31 which should be like WLP570 the Duvel strain and can add some boiled dark homemade candisyrup to the fermenter.
An English ale? I have Wlp002, Wlp007, London III and Verdant
16 IBUs might be bit low for these styles?
Any other suggestions?
Thanks.

Yes, I do that literally every time (21gal custom homemade eBIAB). 2row + 20% rye, 20 ibu noble/spicy hopstand, then add 2lbs of D90/D180 or dextrose as fermentation winds down, and I have a dubbel (or quad) + tripple, depending on strength and dark syrups.
Another split I often do is run-off and dilute a few gallons of something pre-boil or pre-hopstand to split off a gose or quicksour from an IPA or tripple or whatever. I'm limited on time, and making 3 kegs in one afternoon beats doing it in 3 afternoons.
Be creative!

 

[Shenanigans]

Thanks for the tips guys.
Actually what I really want to do is use just use up the pack of 3763 before it gets too old.
I already made a starter with it a few months ago to keep it alive.
I want to brew a Tripel next but I'm not sure if I split that and added the 3763 what will come out in the end.
If I need to do a co-pitch with another yeast or if it would be OK on its own.

Anyway I don't want to hijack this thread and will open a new one for my questions about that.

 

[dawn_kiebawls]

Oh man, how time flies! I brewed this recipe in September of 2020 and need to get it in my belly (and out of my basement before my wife kills me lol)! I'll have two weeks of free time after this coming week so I have to get it done in that window so I'm planning to follow the advice of @cactusgarrett :

I bottle all my sours in large format bottles (champagne, bombers, etc.). For all my aged beers (whatever sits longer than 6 months) I re-yeast at bottling time with CBC-1 and GoFerm. Works like a charm. If i didn't use GoFerm, I would get extra insurance of good priming by doing an acid shock starter for the bottling yeast.

I'll be doing this either in standard 12oz bottles of bombers. Go-ferm directions say to use 1.25g Go-Ferm per every 1g of yeast used, but how much yeast do I need per gallon of beer? Sorry if this has already been discussed but I have been out of the brewing scene for a LONG time. Also, any recommendations on how many volumes I should carb this to? I'll have to get back on brewersfriend.com and fiddle around with their bottling calculators again. Thanks for all the help!

 

[cactusgarrett]

how much yeast do I need per gallon of beer?

Usually with CBC-1 I'm doing 2-3 grams. It's easy to overdo the carb on these sours, so I would err on the low end - something like 2.3, no higher than 2.5. But that's me, personally.

 

[Mark Solomon]

I just brewed this recipe and decided to only pitch the 3763 by itself. I am surprised how vigorous the fermentation is. Was this a mistake? I figure it would be more sour if I let it do it’s thing.

I am wondering why everyone pitches a separate yeast strain first?

-Mark

 

[JAReeves]

I tend to co-pitch a sacc, often a belgian or saison, but sometimes a something-leftover along with my house sour cultures. I just don't want to pitch twice, but also, I get a more moderate sour by having the sacc eat some of the sugars before the wild yeasties do their thing.

 

[Beermeister32]

I think I'd pitch US-05 first. They I'd pitch the 3763 Roeselare........in the trash. I can't stand Roeselare. Dumper every time.

 

[Mark Solomon]

I think I'd pitch US-05 first. They I'd pitch the 3763 Roeselare........in the trash. I can't stand Roeselare. Dumper every time.

I understand your point of view. Before using Roeselare you definitely was to drink a Rodenbach first. If you don’t like that you certainly won’t like this strain.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I get a more moderate sour by having the sacc eat some of the sugars before the wild yeasties do their thing.

This right here. I used to baby my mixed ferms that contain lacto (minimal IBU), but after maintaining house blends for years, it's been getting pretty hop tolerant and super sour (which I'm not into nowadays). Any steps that can be done to knock down that sourness is worth noting, especially the copitch/timing approach.

I can't stand Roeselare. Dumper every time.

Feel free to pass on by the next recipe thread that leans heavily on it, then. Man...

 

[Beer666]

Seems i have the same issue as you Cactus. My house culture is souring 20 IBU's in a few weeks and i have also gone off super sour beers. Really need to get into blending as i have quite a few flanders on the go. Youngest is 18 months and not tasted anything for a year or more.

 

[mashpaddled]

I tend to co-pitch a sacc, often a belgian or saison, but sometimes a something-leftover along with my house sour cultures. I just don't want to pitch twice, but also, I get a more moderate sour by having the sacc eat some of the sugars before the wild yeasties do their thing.

The mid-2010s advice for brewing sour beer got everybody hooked on brewing ridiculously sour beer and maintaining house cultures that produced those beers. When you feed a mixed culture like you would maintain a yeast culture you get way more LAB in the mix because they reproduce substantially faster than yeast--especially brett. If you're going to maintain a house sour culture you need to pitch sacc with it or on a timetable where sacc gets in there first so you can balance the mix of organisms in the beer--exactly what you're doing here. Letting sacc outcompete lacto for the simple sugars means pedio has to pick up the souring duties which gives you less acid production. Bumping up the IBUs will also help knock down the LAB. I tend to bitter all my sour beers to 30 IBUs.

My technique is to maintain a house character in my sour beer is to repitch out of the cake, usually along with fresh sacc. The fresh sacc is more for accelerating fermentation and making sure there are plenty of fermentation byproducts for brett to repackage into other flavors. I find not pitching fresh sacc or doing a primary clean fermentation results in less complexity and more straightforward barnyard brett character. Between this process and a firm hand bittering I get a lot of flavor but maintain ph levels in the 3.6-3.8 range. My house sour character is driven by WY3728 plus some dregs. WY3278 responds really well to this process and produces good brett flavor.

 

[JAReeves]

The mid-2010s advice for brewing sour beer got everybody hooked on brewing ridiculously sour beer and maintaining house cultures that produced those beers. When you feed a mixed culture like you would maintain a yeast culture you get way more LAB in the mix because they reproduce substantially faster than yeast--especially brett. If you're going to maintain a house sour culture you need to pitch sacc with it or on a timetable where sacc gets in there first so you can balance the mix of organisms in the beer--exactly what you're doing here. Letting sacc outcompete lacto for the simple sugars means pedio has to pick up the souring duties which gives you less acid production. Bumping up the IBUs will also help knock down the LAB. I tend to bitter all my sour beers to 30 IBUs.

My technique is to maintain a house character in my sour beer is to repitch out of the cake, usually along with fresh sacc. The fresh sacc is more for accelerating fermentation and making sure there are plenty of fermentation byproducts for brett to repackage into other flavors. I find not pitching fresh sacc or doing a primary clean fermentation results in less complexity and more straightforward barnyard brett character. Between this process and a firm hand bittering I get a lot of flavor but maintain ph levels in the 3.6-3.8 range. My house sour character is driven by WY3728 plus some dregs. WY3278 responds really well to this process and produces good brett flavor.

I have sat in a couple of Michael Tonsmeire's talks and limiting the sugars that the sour culture can consume was his advice (I had a batch that went way too sour). I have no idea what is in my house culture, as it comes off the grapes we grow, so learning how to get the best from it on a year-by-year basis is the best we can do. That's our terroir, and we're sticking to it .

 

[Shenanigans]

After years of procrastinating I finally brewed this a month ago.
I transferred it to the secondary last night after 4 weeks.
I had an OG of 1.058 and pitched US-05 and Roeselare at the same time.
Now it has a gravity of 1.005.
It's in no way sour at the moment, just dry as is to be expected at that SG.

I bought the pack of Roeselare 3 years ago and never got around to brewing with it, so I kept it alive two times by feeding it with some malt extract.
I am a bit worried about that now after reading this on the Wyeast website:

"Propagation of this culture is not recommended and will result in a change of the proportions of the individual components."

Hopefully sometime decent comes out after a year or so even if it's not exactly like Rodenbach.
Something sour and funky and enjoyable to drink now and again would be fine.

It must be doing something as I don't think US-05 would have reached 91% attenuation on it's own with a 60 min 154F mash and no table sugar in the malt bill. I also read somewhere that the reusing the yeast results in it being more sour than a fresh pack so maybe it will be OK; if making a starter counts as reusing

 

[Mark Solomon]

I brewed this recipe back in early July with the intention of souring it for at least 18 months. I just tasted it after 8 months and it is near perfect, maybe an 8/10 on the sour scale. Would I be making a mistake if I bottle it now? Seems way too early...

I single pitched 3763 and added dregs from a Side Project beer. Also added 4oz of Maltodextrine.

Thanks.

-Mark

 

[Shenanigans]

After years of procrastinating I finally brewed this a month ago.
I transferred it to the secondary last night after 4 weeks.
I had an OG of 1.058 and pitched US-05 and Roeselare at the same time.
Now it has a gravity of 1.005.
It's in no way sour at the moment, just dry as is to be expected at that SG.

I bought the pack of Roeselare 3 years ago and never got around to brewing with it, so I kept it alive two times by feeding it with some malt extract.
I am a bit worried about that now after reading this on the Wyeast website:

"Propagation of this culture is not recommended and will result in a change of the proportions of the individual components."

Hopefully sometime decent comes out after a year or so even if it's not exactly like Rodenbach.
Something sour and funky and enjoyable to drink now and again would be fine.

It must be doing something as I don't think US-05 would have reached 91% attenuation on it's own with a 60 min 154F mash and no table sugar in the malt bill. I also read somewhere that the reusing the yeast results in it being more sour than a fresh pack so maybe it will be OK; if making a starter counts as reusing

Just took a sample of mine after 6 months and it is sour but not very, so probably still another 6 months to go but I will check again in december to see if i can get it bottled before Christmas.

 

[suprchunk]

I think I'd pitch US-05 first. They I'd pitch the 3763 Roeselare........in the trash. I can't stand Roeselare. Dumper every time.

You might be in the wrong thread, my man. This thread is specifically about how to make this beer, not how to dump it in your weeds at work.

And I think you point has been well established that you do not like this beer, this beer that is being discussed with admiration. Which is weird, as it is one of the best beers made. In the world.

Read the room?

I have pitched 3763 by itself and prefer it that way. Supposedly it has sacch in there, and is mixed in the proper ratios (though how those propagate themselves while keeping the same ratio is not mentioned). I've pitched with US05 and Roeselare, but still prefer the 3763 by itself. But I like more twang in my sours.

 

[Beermeister32]

You might be in the wrong thread, my man. This thread is specifically about how to make this beer, not how to dump it in your weeds at work.

And I think you point has been well established that you do not like this beer, this beer that is being discussed with admiration. Which is weird, as it is one of the best beers made. In the world.

Read the room?

I have pitched 3763 by itself and prefer it that way. Supposedly it has sacch in there, and is mixed in the proper ratios (though how those propagate themselves while keeping the same ratio is not mentioned). I've pitched with US05 and Roeselare, but still prefer the 3763 by itself. But I like more twang in my sours.

This is from 2021, but worth rementioning ..... Here is the exact spot I dumped it, along the side of our industrial building. 5.5 gallons of 2 year old otherwise good ale, but soured by Roeselare..... Yuck..!

 

[Shenanigans]

I might try 100% 3763 myself next time. I bought a pack 3or 4 years ago but have been keeping it alive by feeding it with wort every 3 to 6 months. Last time was from the starter I used to finally brew this clone. God only knows how the ratios of the original blend have changed. I guess I could just go 100% 3763 and check it after week. If its not moving then add some other neutral ale yeast.

 

[suprchunk]

Looks like the grass has better taste!

 

[Beermeister32]

Grass can have it.

 

[suprchunk]

I might try 100% 3763 myself next time. I bought a pack 3or 4 years ago but have been keeping it alive by feeding it with wort every 3 to 6 months. Last time was from the starter I used to finally brew this clone. God only knows how the ratios of the original blend have changed. I guess I could just go 100% 3763 and check it after week. If its not moving then add some other neutral ale yeast.

I always try a yeast by itself before mixing up different yeasts, and I've rarely found a need to mix. But I do have a few in the pipeline that will be more mixed, as those bugs won't actually do much fermenting. But Roeselare is supposedly setup for success from the getgo, and I haven't had any drain pours using it. Yet. Roeselare is one that I truly do enjoy using by itself as Rodenbach might be one of my favorite mass breweries that makes sours. Mass being a little generous, but I think when you are around the globe you are more massive than a local brewpub.

I also know what this yeast is supposed to do, and how it is supposed to taste, so I am aware of what I will get in the end, or an approximation.

Strange other people are so unfamiliar with this blend that they would brew an entire batch, pitch it, wait, and then be surprised at what they get??? Very strange. Stranger still is the anger you'd have at the YEAST. It did what it was supposed to do. To say "every time" means you'll be as clueless when you plan to buy it again. A lesson that needs learning a few times I suppose?

I mean I do forget that I don't like stuff from time to time, but not an ingredient. I've bought Fancy Lawnmower (swear it used to be called something else!) more than a few times, and my wife has told me I do not like it (or anything by them). I hush her and buy it again. Only for her to be right. Again. I've only done that 3 times though. Now I know.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

Are there any updates on whether the recipe works better with both WY1056 and WY3763, or with 1056 alone?

Also is MD and secondary needed if going with 3763 alone?

Thanks for the great recipe! I'm going to try it in January.