OP
OP
Correct, but since I do clean ferment in the primary and add the bugs to the secondary, there isn't need for any headspace during the souring portion.
Rodenbach Clone
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mikehoover
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How did you determine the length of oak dowel? How deep below the beer surface should it extend? Thanks!Chips would be fine, but all the mucking about with putting them in, taking them out, etc. could introduce more oxygen than you'd like. One option is to make a tincture of red wine and oak cubes. I, myself, use a self-toasted oak dowel to give it just a hint of oak, but more so to promote a bit of oxygen ingress, which (to me) is important when making a Flanders Red.
OP
OP
No right or wrong answer - i just ran the thing to the bottom of the carboy to maximize surface area contact and oxygen exchange.
Just kegged my first batch of this, which I started last year. I have a second one that I pitched on the lees of the first, which I'll let sit for at least one more year. I'll report back tomorrow when I taste it 
Taste is fantastic. I didn’t use any oak in this batch. It has the vegetal kind of taste you’d get from some wines, like a Gamay. The mouth feel is like a dry cider, and it has hints of sour cherry, apricot, and something that vaguely reminds me of leather
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Has anyone tried a Flanders Red like this as a kettle sour, using the same blend and yeast? I'm thinking about trying the exact recipe as a kettle sour to compare with the 1 year aged batch. Any suggestions for this?
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
What would you hope to achieve by kettle souring?
Shenanigans
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I would guess an attempt at a quicker turnover. I'm not a sour beer expert as I haven't even brewed one yet, I could be wrong but from what I have read about this yeast, it takes about a year for it to properly sour a beer but also gives off a few fruity esters along the way. So it is probably not suited to a few days kettle sour. You could of course use a lactobacillus strain to sour the same recipe over a few days and compare to the original to see if it really is worth the wait. Or a least use it as something to keep you distracted when you wait
Yes, I would attempt to get a quicker turnover by keeping the brett / lacto at about 120 degrees for anywhere from a day to three days before then reducing the temperature and pitching the yeast. My real question is, what, if any flavours are produced by the roselare blend of Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Brettanomyces, Lactobacillus, & Pediococcus when they are kept at that temperature for x amount of time.
I made two batches of this last summer, one of which I just kegged and the other I'm waiting another year. I thought it could be neat to try to do a quick version to have on tap beside it. I'm sure it wouldn't be as complex, but I'm wondering if it would still be good.
I made two batches of this last summer, one of which I just kegged and the other I'm waiting another year. I thought it could be neat to try to do a quick version to have on tap beside it. I'm sure it wouldn't be as complex, but I'm wondering if it would still be good.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
There are ways to produce sour beer quickly.
Lacto blend + Hornindal Kviek I bottled 3 days after brewing and it's an excellent beer with notes of funk.
Once you add Brettanomyces into the mix, things get tricky (Brett is slow!) but with a fully optimized process you can package a funky sour in a matter of weeks (2-8 weeks) with a reasonable amount of Brett flavor.
This recipe uses a traditional method, with Pediococcus as the primary source of lactic acid and Brett taking months to attenuate. You can easily speed up souring by reducing the hops, down to 0.1-0.3oz. It'll be sour and ready in approx 3-9 months depending on your taste (how much Brett you like).
1oz of hops is way too much in my opinion.
It's the Brettanomyces flavor that really makes this style of beer wonderful, so you want to maximize that flavor whenever possible. Acidity mutes yeast expression, so it's not exactly best to sour up front.
FYI: When kettle souring, you would not want to add anything besides Lactobacillus. You cannot extract good Brett flavor in a matter of days, and you never want yeast fermentation before boiling.
PM me or tag me in a new thread in the Lambic/wild subforum if you want to discuss these other methods as they don't really fit with this recipe and I'd rather not derail the thread entirely.
Cheers
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andrewmaixner
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You'll end up with a reddish kettle sour, not a Flanders Red Ale.
You might enjoy it, but it will not be the same thing. Go for it, and learn the difference! Note that you will only be getting any character from the lacto and sach, not brett or pedio, unless you plan to age it long-term. And you won't be able to safely bottle it.
OP
OP
In the past, i've been disappointed with the lack of sourness this mix has yielded, so I've actually started to pitch plantarum a couple days before the Roeselare blend. This gives the lacto a head start and ensures I get the tang I'm after down the road. I still give it a year to mature, though, as you can't substitute that complexity with a quick turnaround.
Thanks, this is pretty much what I wanted to know. So, there's no way to speed up the activity of the Brettanomyces through keeping the temperature up to 120, like one would with lacto. Makes sense. I guess I better get a new batch going so I have another one next year...
I plan on making a Flander’s Red this week. I am going to pitch Abbey Ale yeast and the cake from the sour I am bottling this week also. They are wild bugs, so not sure how it is going to work, but the pale sour is delicious and FG 1.000 after 8 months of aging, lightly funky on the back end after a cider/white wine-like opening.
Just boiled my oak cubes and am soaking them in red wine for later.
Really looking forward to this in 6 months to a year.
Just boiled my oak cubes and am soaking them in red wine for later.
Really looking forward to this in 6 months to a year.
I've done this exclusively as a kettle sour. Where I live in Europe brett is either unattainable, unreliable, or just hilariously overpriced. I make a lot of kettle-soured Berliners/goses, so I just decided to do the same here. It's indeed not a 'true' Flanders Red, or a proper Rodenbach, missing the finer nuances of a proper brett sour, but it's perfectly delicious for me, particularly given I know I can buy Rodenbach for ~3EUR/bottle if I ever want the real thing. I've left the recipe largely unchanged save subbing in Abbey malt for Aromatic and just using SafBrew T-58 dry yeast. I get my water to 87Ca, 35Na, 58Cl, 16Mg, 85 Sulfate, 275 Bicarbonate (but the last one's just a 'feature' of my local water), mash at 66.6C for 60 mins, mash out at 75C, kettle sour with plantarum with a sous vide set to 40C for ~24 hours, or until I get down to ~3.5pH, then boil as usual and pitch. Once it's done fermenting I toss in 100g of heavy-toasted local oak chips and let it sit for ~10-14 days and bottle at 2.7vol. Not exactly 'true' to the style, but gets close enough to keep me happy and adds some nice variety to my normally delicious but dull rotation of berliners and session IPAs.
Update:
The first batch is amazing. People who don’t like sour beer like this one, so I did something right.
I wanted more body for the second batch, so I added more unmodified malt and mashed at a higher temp.
I may try to stop the souring at some point, or this 2nd batch may not get as sour because of the hops-I doubled the IBU to slow it down. So I may hit it with K-Meta and K-Sorbate like we do for wine. I will need to either force carb or reintroduce yeast for bottle conditioning if we do this.
I also doubled the oak to 2oz this time; the oak goes into the primary and I just leave it there until the beer is done.
I am using the same bugs as last time, basically the muck on the bottom of the fermenter from the last batch. It has been working for 4 batches so far, and if it ain’t broke....
Beautiful red color. Tart, complex, lightly malt sweet. But getting more sour despite refrigeration, hence the changes I will apply to batch #2.
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
You can't get bottles of unpasteurized & unfiltered funky sours??
Brett is really easy to maintain, so you only need to buy it once.
Sulfite alone should stop the bacteria and Brett from further development. You'll need to target at least 0.8ppm molecular SO2.
Never actually considered that-might need to give it a whirl...
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
2 years later on the dot .... It's bottled and delicious! Very smooth. The malt is prominent, with background Brett, hint of oak, light acidity, and a hint of smooth bitterness. It has nice body and there's sort of a creaminess to it.
I have another Flanders in the fermenter that I brewed 4 months ago with some minor adjustments.
Cheers!
Do you mind giving the Cliff's Notes (showing my age) version of your process? Did you age it in a barrel or use cubes, etc.?
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
I used something like the typical grain bill and 1oz hallertau mittelfruh for 13 IBU. 60 min single infusion at about 150°F, pH 5.25. Water 45ppm sulfate, 44ppm Cl, 9ppm Mg, 10ppm Na. Full trub into the fermenter.
Fermonster with breathable silicone stopper.
1 pack of Roe with no starter. Free rise temp peaked around 75°F, aged at 68-72°F.
At 6 months I added 0.25 oz stavin medium toast French oak cubes boiled for 2 minutes, and 2 oz maltodextrin.
1.061 to 1.007
Acid tolerance starter at bottling, 22oz bombers capped. It's been bottled 4 months now. Feels like about 2.3 volumes CO2.
There were times in the last couple years when I considered dumping it because it was tasting terrible (harsh oxidation, sharply acetic). I'm glad I didn't because it's really good now. It's not as sweet as Rodenbach, much more balanced. The amount of acetic acid is just right, adding complexity without overt vinegar flavor. I guess it's close to 8% ABV (factoring in the MD and priming sugar). It doesn't taste that strong but it sure hits pretty hard.
My more recent batch I added only 0.5 oz hops for 6 IBU to try to get a little stronger acidity and reduce the turnaround time. (And a few other changes).
Thank you!
Wish you were in Los Angeles, I would love to do a sour tasting with you! I love my Rodenbach clone, but to share and get feedback would be great!
RPh_Guy
Bringing Sour Back
If you're interested, I'm brewing a low oxygen mixed Sacch + Brett + Lacto sour for a HBT Christmas beer exchange later this year and there are open spots in my group.
If you're interested, I'm brewing a low oxygen mixed Sacch + Brett + Lacto sour for a HBT Christmas beer exchange later this year and there are open spots in my group.
How do I get in?
My red is good, but I wasn't totally happy with my pale sour and so I added an oak spiral to see what it does.
My wild fermented apple cider is always good, this year's batch is primed with cranberry (last year's was passion fruit).
I am currently making malt vinegar with a saison I didn't like, but I have a new saison culture making frothy white stuff in the closet, so I may need to pitch it soon.
dawn_kiebawls
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This recipe is creeping to the top of my brew list but I will pitch ECY bugfarm instead of Roselare because that is what I have on hand, though I will probably lose some of the malt character in the finished product. One question though, how long was the oak in contact with the beer? I will probably use medium toast French oak beans or spirals so I will be unable to retrieve them once they're in (without an additional racking). Cheers!
I ferment my red with the oak cubes in there from the beginning. I like the long oak aging I get and my cubes hold the cultures to help the next batch kick into gear.
I always retrieve my cubes; after sanitizing everything (funnel, yeast jar, etc) I pour out everything and save the cubes separate from the cultures. I have had good success for four consecutive batches so far.
I always retrieve my cubes; after sanitizing everything (funnel, yeast jar, etc) I pour out everything and save the cubes separate from the cultures. I have had good success for four consecutive batches so far.
dawn_kiebawls
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I just got 6 gallons of this in the fermentor last night. For the most part the brew day went well. I produced my clearest wort to date and nailed all my numbers with the exception of preboil volume. I fell a little short so I did a 70 minute boil maintaining the 60 minute hop addition. Also, in an attempt to make the wort as unfermentable as possible (to avoid having to use maltodextrin) I did a 45 minute mash at 156F, drained straight into the kettle to heat wort to 170 and batch sparged with 180f water to get the grain bed to 170.
I pitched ECY Bugcounty last night about 9pm and am waiting for it to kick off. All in all I have very high hopes for this brew and can't wait to see how it turns out. Thanks for the recipe, cheers!
I pitched ECY Bugcounty last night about 9pm and am waiting for it to kick off. All in all I have very high hopes for this brew and can't wait to see how it turns out. Thanks for the recipe, cheers!
dawn_kiebawls
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9 days since pitching I racked to secondary after the krausen had fallen but the airlock was still burping every minute or so. I needed the fermentor and was hoping it would create its' own protective CO2 barrier. My gravity is sitting at 1.008-1.011, depending which temperature adjustment you believe - I'm hoping for the 1.011 end of the spectrum. These ECY strains don't mess around! Hopefully there's enough food for the bugs to nom on for the next year without needing to add MD.
My carboy doesn't look nearly as dark as some of the previous posts but my sample looks pretty similar to some of the pours posted. All in all I'm really excited about this brew. Thanks again @cactusgarrett
My carboy doesn't look nearly as dark as some of the previous posts but my sample looks pretty similar to some of the pours posted. All in all I'm really excited about this brew. Thanks again @cactusgarrett
Beer666
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Regarding oxidisation i have a Flanders i brewed 3 months ago and i have just noticed the airlock has disintegrated. I changed the lid on my big mouth bubbler as it was not sealing for the first six weeks so in total it was probably bubbling for a maximum of 2 weeks. The beer tastes great and the thickest of pellicles so far formed. Its slightly acidic which i am pleased with as its 15IBU, no acetic present and the brett flavour is there. I used Roeselare only. Really encouraged that i have not ruined the beer, never seen a pellicle form so fast.
OP
OP
A pellicle is formed in response to presence of oxygen, so if you had a leak in your lid and/or your airlock dried up, that would very easily cause a thick pellicle.
OP
OP
I'm sure it'll be fine in the longrun. It could be a bigger issue with a clean or softer beer, but IMHO, darker sours often benefit from a little oxygenation here and there to give them a slight sherry-like flavor.
dawn_kiebawls
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Well I went to check on this carboy just now and I fear I have a mold raft floating on the surface I can't tell if it's a pellicle or mold because it's kinda dark down there and the carboy has condensation in it. I don't want to open it to try and get a better look out of fear of O2 ingress. I'll just let it ride for a while longer and see if it becomes more obvious what it is with some more time.
I just can't figure out how there was any O2 in there for a pellicle to form in the first place. When I transferred to secondary there was still activity in the airlock, the gravity was 1.010 and that's when I added the dregs. It's been sealed ever since. I will be really sad if this becomes a dumper
I can't tell if it's a pellicle or mold because it's kinda dark down there and the carboy has condensation in it. I don't want to open it to try and get a better look out of fear of O2 ingress. I'll just let it ride for a while longer and see if it becomes more obvious what it is with some more time.I just can't figure out how there was any O2 in there for a pellicle to form in the first place. When I transferred to secondary there was still activity in the airlock, the gravity was 1.010 and that's when I added the dregs. It's been sealed ever since. I will be really sad if this becomes a dumper
Manuel Julian Rodríguez
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Hey I'm new in the sours, I want to give this a try but I'm form Colombia and I can't find any sour mix, what do you think about making the wort as usual, fermenting with a german ale and then pitching some lacto grown from malts and brett from a bottle of beer?
other thing i was planing to do was doing a kettle sour and throw some brett and let it age, Im kind of scaried about making something totaly out of balance. any advice about the mixed culture ferment will be great.
other thing i was planing to do was doing a kettle sour and throw some brett and let it age, Im kind of scaried about making something totaly out of balance. any advice about the mixed culture ferment will be great.
OP
OP
With that combination of lacto and brett, you can do a LOT of things in a variety of ways. Check this out; should give you plenty of reading and options:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Mixed_Fermentation
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Mixed_Fermentation
Beer666
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I have had something along these lines sitting in a demijohn for the last 8 months and its still not sour. After reading this thread i have decided to add some malto dextrin and more bugs. Probably sour weapon p but i am concerned about messing with the pellicle. Would seem like a good time to add oak too.
I do have lacto but the beer is around 10 IBU.
I do have lacto but the beer is around 10 IBU.
dawn_kiebawls
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Almost 8 months in secondary. I haven't pulled a sample yet but it smells fantastic. I'm on the fence about whether or not to add oak or leave it as is, but I suppose I'll need to taste it to make that decision. I'm excited for this one!
How is everyone bottling this? Will I need to re-yeast it in order for it to prime?
OP
OP
I bottle all my sours in large format bottles (champagne, bombers, etc.). For all my aged beers (whatever sits longer than 6 months) I re-yeast at bottling time with CBC-1 and GoFerm. Works like a charm. If i didn't use GoFerm, I would get extra insurance of good priming by doing an acid shock starter for the bottling yeast.
monkeymath
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I know this is post is sort of old, but I'm actually getting married the day after tomorrow and so I wanted to ask if
(a) you still had some of that Flanders' Red, and, if yes,
(b) you wanted to be my friend?
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