Robobrew Hands on Review

[micraftbeer]

I got a Robobrew all-in-one eBIAB system from Keg King and gave it a test drive. I've tried a number of the electric units out there as part of some reviews on HomeBrewTalk last year. I recently also evaluated two new entries at the low end of the price spectrum. The link below is to my review of the Robobrew unit.

My overall impressions of the unit is that it's a decent entry, and definitely a good value at its price. I did have to come up with some process adjustments to get the temperature to work out like I wanted, so it does take a bit of involvement to have the control you might want. You can get the scoop at the link below. But feel free to shoot me any questions you might have.

The link is below:
http://www.homebrewfinds.com/2017/10/hands-on-review-robobrew-all-grain-brewing-system.html

 

[BeernuT100]

Nice review. Similar to my findings

 

[micraftbeer]

What did you do about the temperature difference? Some have suggested that if I had just let it run continually recirculating, the temperature reading would come in line with my manual thermometer readings. Or I would have evened out at a steady difference and the controller would've regulated there. I'm going to set up a trial to test that out, but curious how you dealt with the temperature sensing difference?

 

[BeernuT100]

So far I have wrapped mine with 2 layers of the foil bubble wrap stuff (drawing a blank now on the name). I am waiting on a new digital thermometer to do more testing. I'll probably just end up add a + to the temp in the end. If i want to mash at 152 I'll set it to 154. As long as it's consistently wrong then I can deal with it.

I also wasn't happy about the marks being off.

Mods I would like to do so far:
1) Add a sight glass. Was thinking of either going to a silicon tube between the sparge arm and the lower elbow or try fitting one up behind the ball lock. Figured I would email BobbyM and see what he could work up for me.

2) I think I want to add a down facing pick-up tube to grab more wort left behind.


Anyways, I like mine. It made brewing a little simpler for me. Helped get me back into brewing. I've gotten 6 batches on mine with more planned out. Just running out of fermenters.

-bn

 

[DamnRedhead]

Thanks for this review! I have been extract brewing for the past 3 years, and we have a 15 gallon electric all grain setup at work (I'm a statistician for a mid-sized company, and our CEO loves beer) that I've been brewing on for the past year and a half or so. I don't want to go into the office on the weekends to brew, so I'm looking at something smaller for home use, but don't really have the room to store all the coolers, so I was thinking Robobrew or Grainfather.

My questions (as I'm early into my research) - since these are essentially a BIAB setup, do you ever have efficiency problems, especially for higher gravity beers?

What I'd really like to find... the Grainfather/Robo-brew to start (basket for grain), let it mash with the controller, mash out, then put a flow control on the bottom of the kettle and properly sparge out to a separate pot. Then lift out the basket and dump the grain and pour your wort back into the initial kettle and boil it. Does this exist and I just don't realize it, or is the Robobrew/Grainfather style BIAB really perfectly fine for higher gravity beers?

Thanks!

 

[micraftbeer]

I get about 70% efficiency. But that is the same I get with my 3 vessel set-up using a kettle with a false bottom as my mash tun, and then do an hour long sparge. I don't know if BIAB drops off in efficiency if you go for a really gravity brew, because I don't really do anything more than around 6.5 - 7.0% ABV.

But these electric single vessel systems are great. Definitely the way to go, and as you know, the beer quality from all-grain is worth leaving the extract behind.

These systems are all set up for a sparge if you want. The steel mesh baskets that sit inside (they call them malt pipes) hold your crushed grains during the mash and have some sort of feet that allow you to lift the basket and rest it above the kettle. If you mash with enough water for your whole batch, you can just let the water drain out and you're done. Or you can set up a gravity fed sparge to run through your basket as it rests above the vessel, and do a sparge like a typical 3-vessel brew. (Picture attached of Grainfather with its malt pipe set in the sparge position.)


There are a number of units out there at a wide variety of price options. The Robobrew is definitely one of the most economical. There's also the Brewer's Edge Mash & Boil that's even cheaper. It doesn't come with a pump, but you can easily add one and it will be less expensive than the Robobrew, just not quite as compact. More links below to some other units I've reviewed. Not that any one reviewer is better than another, but sometimes it helps when you have a common viewpoint across multiple pieces of equipment.

Link to review on Brewer's Edge Mash & Boil.

Link to Part1 of review of multiple units.

Link to Part2 of review of multiple units.

 

[DamnRedhead]

Thanks so much, I really appreciate your detailed response! That's exactly what I was looking for - a review from someone experienced with multiple systems. I usually brew around 7-8% IPA's, Stouts, and various ales, so your information on Robobrew has certainly piqued my interest.

 

[micraftbeer]

I've got an update coming to my review. After this conversation thread and some discussion with some others that read my review, I went back and did some small experiments collecting temperature data at various set points. I have some data showing the temperature difference I saw with both a small batch (4 gallons) and large batch (7 gallons), as well as temperature stability across a 30 minute test where the Robobrew was controlling to the set point.

With this data, I've got a good feel for the temperature offset I would use and have good confidence in its ability to hold a steady temperature at a given mash temp I set. I'll post the link when that gets updated.

 

[Belmont_Brewery]

Good info in the review!
I'd been lazy and hadn't checked the actual grain bed temperature VS the readout. Might explain why the conversion process seems to take a bit longer than expected. I've been brewing at lower temperatures (63-65C) lately and things are still converting right up until 90 minutes.

Pretty happy with the unit though. Brewing takes a similar amount of time but requires tremendously less monitoring/thought so it's a lot easier to Dad while I brew

 

[micraftbeer]

Brewing takes a similar amount of time but requires tremendously less monitoring/thought so it's a lot easier to Dad while I brew

I completely agree. For me it takes a bit less time because there's less equipment to wash up at the end of the brew session, and with the reliable controls you can start putting away or cleaning some mash-specific stuff while your boil's going, or get your wort chiller set-up because you don't have to constantly monitor it.

I updated the review today based on the temperature trials I did over the last couple of days. It's the same link, but now has some plots of the data I took and some observations.

http://www.homebrewfinds.com/2017/10/hands-on-review-robobrew-all-grain-brewing-system.html

 

[hopdreams]

Thanks for the review. Been brewing for about six months, itching to upgrade my equipment and decided it may be best to just buy the Robobrew instead of piecing together an all grain system. Got lucky and nabbed the last one on Williams Brewing yesterday. Really looking forward to my next brew day.

 

[micraftbeer]

Check the volume markings and temperature performance if you can wait before your first brew. Once I knew the temperature profile of my unit and adjusted my set temperatures accordingly, I was very pleased with how things went. Much better than the first 2 brews I made where I was frustrated at missing my target temperatures and trying to manually adjust things. And I think you'd be even worse off if you didn't check the temperature and just ended up with bad resulting beer.

Just fill it up with tap water for the study. Takes maybe 1 - 1.5 hours.

 

[LieutenantDan]

How is the beer? I have seen a bunch of reviews of the hardware and process, but not the finished product.

 

[micraftbeer]

You're right. I focused on the equipment itself, which was intentional. Ultimately it's a tool for a homebrewer to wield in their efforts of making whatever beer they've envisioned. I'm sure someone could find flaws with this analogy, but if I were reviewing a new powertool, I'd talk about the tool itself and not the house that I built with it. In the case of beer, I might've come up with a horrible recipe idea that made bad beer, or screwed up the fermentation and had a lot of unwanted flavors in the finished product.

But that being said, I was pleased with the beers I made with the Robobrew. As far as the Robobrew contributing to the success of my brewing intentions, I hit my expected/targeted conversion efficiencies of 70 - 73%. After sorting out the temperature correlation, I was able to hit my target temperature well for the mash profile I selected and hold it. And I have confidence if I wanted to do the exact same mash profile again, or change a step temperature, I could confidently hold or manipulate that variable. The extra false bottom kept excess hop residue out of my fermenter. The built-in pump made it easy to hook up to my counterflow wort chiller to ensure fast cool-down of the wort after boiling.

 

[LieutenantDan]

good stuff.

You used your own counter flow chiller instead of the immersion chiller that comes with the robobrew, or both?

Is the robobrew something you would use for your main brewing rig, or is this more of a sideshow type piece?

 

[micraftbeer]

Yes, I used my own counterflow chiller (Exchilerator Maxx). It works great, so I had no need for the immersion chiller that came with the Robobrew. Using an immersion chiller with recirculation flow may deal with my biggest annoyances of immersion chillers, that is having to bob them up & down to make sure you're getting worked through all the wort and not just creating a local cool spot. But it's hard to beat the speed of the counterflow.

The unit has all the capabilities to be used as a main brewing unit. Good performance, digital temperature control to get you good repeatability, the convenience of BIAB so you don't have a ton of things to wash at the end, etc. It obviously won't do if you're trying to make 10 gallon batches because the unit's just too small. But I did make a 6.3 gallon batch out of it, which is more than double what I normally make. And it works fine making small 2.5 gallon batches as well. So I'm struggling to find a reason why you couldn't use it as your prime brewing unit.

 

[superkrai]

Currently only brew extract due to space limitations. Will the robobrew be able to hold enough grain for higher gravity beers? Would like to make some styles in the 11-15% abv range

 

[azmark]

Yes, I used my own counterflow chiller (Exchilerator Maxx). It works great, so I had no need for the immersion chiller that came with the Robobrew. Using an immersion chiller with recirculation flow may deal with my biggest annoyances of immersion chillers, that is having to bob them up & down to make sure you're getting worked through all the wort and not just creating a local cool spot. But it's hard to beat the speed of the counterflow.

You could just whirlpool with your pump to avoid the bobbing up and down?

 

[Jang3889]

I am considering buying a Robobrew and am wondering how necessary the pump is?

 

[micraftbeer]

If you're not getting the pump, I'd recommend going with the Mash & Boil. It's cheaper than the non-pump Robobrew and has better material/craftsmanship plus a double-wall to hold temperatures better. Robobrew has a better controller so can hold temperature better, but with the double wall you don't really need to worry about that much.

If you're wondering what does the pump give you, to me it gives you two things. First off, with your wort circulating and moving, your mash becomes more consistent in temperature across the whole thing, which opens the door to better temperature control. In a non-circulating kettle like these, your temperature sensor will pick up the temperature of a localized part of the wort, near the burner. Because of that, the non-circulating units typically have a bigger temperature window before they kick on the elements again to adjust. Units with pumps know that the wort that's sitting next to the electric element will get moved on down the line so they don't have to worry about scorching a localized spot and they can respond more directly to temperature drops by adding more heat.

The other thing the pump enables is some convenience features like wort transfer by pump into your fermentor, and hooking up to better wort chillers like counterflow chillers and plate chillers.

Here's a link to my review of the Mash & Boil: http://www.homebrewfinds.com/2017/09/hands-on-review-brewers-edge-mash-boil-electric-brewery.html

 

[Griffin495]

I saw in your review that you dumped in 7 1 gallon water bottles but it came out to 7.3 G. Have you ever measured out your water bottles? I used to just dump in my water bottles assuming they were 1 G like they were marked, but recently measured a few out and they were all over the one gallon mark. Maybe your source of water bottles aren't accurate just like mine aren't? Just a thought.

I did enjoy your review. How long does a normal brew day take you with the Robobrew? and the other eBIAB kettles?

 

[Jang3889]

If you're not getting the pump, I'd recommend going with the Mash & Boil. It's cheaper than the non-pump Robobrew and has better material/craftsmanship plus a double-wall to hold temperatures better. Robobrew has a better controller so can hold temperature better, but with the double wall you don't really need to worry about that much.

If you're wondering what does the pump give you, to me it gives you two things. First off, with your wort circulating and moving, your mash becomes more consistent in temperature across the whole thing, which opens the door to better temperature control. In a non-circulating kettle like these, your temperature sensor will pick up the temperature of a localized part of the wort, near the burner. Because of that, the non-circulating units typically have a bigger temperature window before they kick on the elements again to adjust. Units with pumps know that the wort that's sitting next to the electric element will get moved on down the line so they don't have to worry about scorching a localized spot and they can respond more directly to temperature drops by adding more heat.

The other thing the pump enables is some convenience features like wort transfer by pump into your fermentor, and hooking up to better wort chillers like counterflow chillers and plate chillers.

Here's a link to my review of the Mash & Boil: http://www.homebrewfinds.com/2017/09/hands-on-review-brewers-edge-mash-boil-electric-brewery.html

Very helpful! Thank you!

 

[micraftbeer]

I definitely didn't have a certified source for my 7 gallon measurement, just 1 gallon bottles of distilled water from the grocery store. I did find at fewer jugs I had the same amount of error (all of this being eye-balled against the volume markings mind you). But when I contacted Keg King they were aware of the issue and said they found an issue where in manufacturing set-up, the welding of the top portion to the bottom was off. This type of manufacturing issue would match with the volume having a constant error at each level. It's a bit of a pain having to do the mental math on the volume, but I can deal with it.

The brew day length is really hard to pin down because there are a number of things that affect it. For example, I typically do 2.5 gallon batches, but sometimes do 2 gallons. Usually 60 minute boils, but sometimes 90. And I fluctuate a lot between a 4 temperature step mash (100F, 122F, 150-ish, 168F) and a 2 temperature step (150-ish and 168F). Usually 60 minute saccharifacation rests (butchered the spelling on that), but sometimes longer if I have a high wheat content to the malt. I did a 3 gallon batch yesterday with my 4 temperature steps and a 90 minute boil. I started heating water at 8AM and was into fermentor and everything cleaned up by 4:30PM. But I have done days with just 2-step mash and done with clean-up after 5.5 - 6 hours.

But with the electric control, there are lots of ways to cheat this. First off, there's the delayed start timer. You can set things up, fill it with water and program when it comes on to start heating. So you can essentially disregard the whole "heat up to strike temperature" phase. In the midst of a multi-temperature step mash, there's a predictable temperature rise over time you figure out. For my batch yesterday, it was about 1 minute per degree. So when I was done with a step, I'd set the new temperature target and knew I could go do something else for 20-30 minutes and not worry about overshooting or missing something. So I could go inside and do laundry, clean up the kitchen, or just sit in a comfy chair and read a book. During the 90 minute boil, I only had hop additions at 90 minutes and 15 minutes. So in the middle of the boil, I went out and grabbed some lunch. When I was running propane burners, I'd be too nervous to leave open flame going and then take off- either for fear of burning down the house or running a tank empty.

So there are a lot of time benefits beyond just the start & end time.

 

[SanPancho]

@micraftbeer im wondering if you can tell me a bit about the issues with hops. I noticed in older reviews you said hops are a problem for the pump. But in the latest review for g3 units you show a photo with the hops all contained by one of the screens/false bottoms. Whats the story with the latest units?

 

[micraftbeer]

@SanPancho , the double false bottoms in the Robobrew (one in the malt pipe, one on its own on the bottom of the kettle) worked well for keeping hops from plugging the pump. I'll have to re-read my review because I may have mis-worded something. The Keg King folks said they intentionally added the second false bottom as part of their comparison runs and what they saw as a deficiency of the Grainfather. As my pictures support, the false bottom does keep the hop debris out of the pump.

One unfortunate thing to add to my review (working to get this online) is my Robobrew unit has died. During a brew, the control screen blanked out and the 1000W heating element switch went dark, leaving only the 500W element going. It was still heating and supported a very weak boil (I was 60 minutes into a 90 minute boil), but it wouldn't come back to life. I contacted Keg King about it and they said they've seen issues like this and it was a problem with the control board. Unfortunately, they were unwilling to help me out and said that since they're in Australia and don't ship direct to the US, I'd have to find a control board part in the US somewhere. I told them I searched the internet and couldn't find the control board as a replacement part anywhere. They just said sorry and told me to start calling around to US distributors. I was more than put off by their non-concern for my problem. I asked if they could at least give me contacts to who they sold their stuff to in the US, but they ignored my request.

It's very unfortunate because my experience prior to this with Keg King has been great. My contact there, Kee Doery, is no longer with the company apparently. His genuine care for the customer and technical know-how is definitely a huge gap. So at this point, even though the false bottoms seem to protect the pump, I can't really recommend the Robobrew any more.

 

[Veets]

@SanPancho , the double false bottoms in the Robobrew (one in the malt pipe, one on its own on the bottom of the kettle) worked well for keeping hops from plugging the pump.

You didn't really put the screen from the malt pipe back into the kettle before adding hops, did you? I'm wondering if you misremembered your original writeup. Putting the malt pipe and its screens back into the kettle before adding hops is not in the instructions, and would be unusual I think. I'm not saying it wouldn't work, just that after sparging I think most people would just set aside the grains in the malt pipe and deal with that part of the equipment later.

 

[micraftbeer]

Yes, you're right. Just the false bottom to protect the pump from hops.

For some reason I was thinking double later if protection versus Grainfather. But it's just smaller hole size on Robobrew plus the greater surface area of filter.

 

[SanPancho]

either way it sounds like it works. so thats my biggest concern.

but having one crap out on you with little to no support sounds no bueno. i assume all your support has to go through whoever sold you the unit?

 

[micraftbeer]

Correct. They said I'd have to work with a local retailer since as a company they do not support end customers directly.

It's unfortunate because it had a lot going for it. You couldn't beat the price, but unfortunately that came with some unwanted side effects I guess..

 

[SanPancho]

So did you buy this from keg king directly? Or was this a promo/freebie unit?

 

[micraftbeer]

Keg King arranged for a unit to be sent from one of their US retailers to me for the evaluation. I didn't want to bother the retailer because they were just the middleman in this case.

 

[SanPancho]

Ah, got it. So it behooves you to do some research on the retailer you buy it from in terms of customer service reputation, shipping and return policies, etc. Makes sense.

 

[Veets]

@SanPancho I contacted Keg King about it and they said they've seen issues like this and it was a problem with the control board. Unfortunately, they were unwilling to help me out and said that since they're in Australia and don't ship direct to the US, I'd have to find a control board part in the US somewhere. I told them I searched the internet and couldn't find the control board as a replacement part anywhere. They just said sorry and told me to start calling around to US distributors. I was more than put off by their non-concern for my problem. I asked if they could at least give me contacts to who they sold their stuff to in the US, but they ignored my request.

Keg King arranged for a unit to be sent from one of their US retailers to me for the evaluation. I didn't want to bother the retailer because they were just the middleman in this case.

I have no affiliation with Keg King, but as an objective observer this kinda sounds like a misunderstanding. They simply don't deal with end customers (like a lot of companies), and don't share their customer list. But instead of contacting the retailer like they advised, you decided to not bother the retailer. It's understandable, if you got a free unit, but it doesn't sound like a gap in customer service.

 

[micraftbeer]

I have no affiliation with Keg King, but as an objective observer this kinda sounds like a misunderstanding. They simply don't deal with end customers (like a lot of companies), and don't share their customer list. But instead of contacting the retailer like they advised, you decided to not bother the retailer. It's understandable, if you got a free unit, but it doesn't sound like a gap in customer service.

Good point. Before I judge, I should try their suggested route and see if the US retailers are able to deal with this type of malfunction. I was assuming they'd tell me they don't deal with a repair like that and I'd be out of luck. I'll follow up.