RO water system help! How much water can I get a day?

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akthor

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So I'm about a week away from brewing in my new rig. I plan on making 2 batches. Two 1bbl batches so I'm going to need like 80+ gallons of water. I have hard water and a water softener but I also had an RO system installed just for brewing since I knew water from the water softener was no good for brewing.

I know RO systems only make so much water a day. My plan is to harvest it and store it in my 1bbl conicals for my brew day.

My issue is I am unfamiliar with RO systems and how I go about harvesting as much as I can per day. The manual for the RO system says it can make up to 50 gallons per day but it varies on different factors.

So what do I do just turn on the water and will it run until it runs out then I wait a day to do it again? I know it has a storage tank under the sink near the whole filter/membrane assembly the storage tank is 3 gallons. Does that mean I can harvest it 3 gallons at a time? Thanks for any help!
 
If you just use the 3-gallon tank, that's as much as you can get at one time. I suppose you could fill when you go to work, then when you come home, then when you go to bed....might get 8 gallons a day doing that. My guess is that would get old pretty fast.

The units are variable based on rating in gallons-per-day, pressure, composition of feed water, and temperature of the feed water. I have one rated at 50 gpd, and when conditions are right I get about 1.5 gallons per hour, pushing 2 gallons per hour. But that's optimal. When the water is very cold (such as at this time of year), I'm down to not a whole lot more than 1 gph.

I'm including a pic showing how I harvest it, but I'm not doing 1 bbl batches. It may give you an idea about how to do it. I just let the water go into an Aquatainer (bored out the vent hole to 1/4" and the water line fits snugly, just perfect). Perhaps you can get a system that will just fill a large vessel without having to xfer 3 gallons over and over again.

At the start of a brew day, I dump the water into the kettle, put the rest in 1-gallon distilled water jugs, and start the system refilling the Aquatainer. About the time I'm finished brewing and cleaning up the Aquatainer is refilled and ready for the next time.

If I were doing a 1-bbl batch, I suppose I could fill the kettle the same way. Just start it the day before (depending on throughput) and let it go. There are ways using a float switch to turn off the water when a container is full, but I've never bothered to find out more than that.

rosystem.jpg


In this manifestation, the RO filter is hung on the wall so I could, if the garage got too cold, bring it in the house so it didn't freeze.

I've since had that unit put beneath the sink and it's now connected to a sillcock under the sink by which I can control the water. I drilled a hole in the sink and passed the line through it and have a piece of plastic keeping it from going back in. Same principle, dump water into kettle, then start refilling.

Obviously there's no reason you have to do this the day of brewing; you can fill that kettle any time, provided you have the space to do it.

Given your situation, I'd suggest a new RO filter and do something like what I'm doing. Mine is from Buckeye Hydro, their customer service is terrific. They sell an RO system that can go as high as 150 gpd, which means....you could fill a 1 bbl system in a day. The difference in cost between a 50 gpd and 150 gpd system is only $20.

Here are a few more pics showing the current manifestation of my system. Anyway, good luck, and while I know you don't want to spend any more than you have to, for $150 or so you can have a system that won't require you to move water 3 gallons at a time.

rosystem2.jpg rosystemsupply.jpg rosystemline.jpg
 
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So you are using the aquatainer as your storage tank? The storage tank is pressurized in my system. So if I turn on the water will it just stop when it runs of RO water. I've only filled glasses if water so far so I'm not sure what happens when it runs out.

The whole point of my brewing system is I don't have to brew often I'm prepared to camp out and if it takes a few days to get the water stored so be it. I don't have a lot of choice the water is crappy in this part of Minnesota so my only other option would be to fill 16 five gallon water jugs at the RO water station. @ .25 a gallon that's not a big deal. But buying 16 five gallon jugs is a big cost but hauling them full is a bigger cost on my back!
 
So you are using the aquatainer as your storage tank? The storage tank is pressurized in my system.

Exactly. If my area was set up differently, I might just fill my kettle the night before or over night depending on how much i needed.

So if I turn on the water will it just stop when it runs of RO water. I've only filled glasses if water so far so I'm not sure what happens when it runs out.

Those systems are intended for exactly that, filling glasses, maybe coffee pots, maybe some water for the stove. Not for high capacity uses.

The whole point of my brewing system is I don't have to brew often I'm prepared to camp out and if it takes a few days to get the water stored so be it. I don't have a lot of choice the water is crappy in this part of Minnesota so my only other option would be to fill 16 five gallon water jugs at the RO water station. @ .25 a gallon that's not a big deal. But buying 16 five gallon jugs is a big cost but hauling them full is a bigger cost on my back!

I probably wasn't clear. I don't know what your layout is, so take this with a grain of salt. I'm presuming you have access to water where you brew. Hard to imagine cleaning a 1 bbl system w/o it. So if that were the case, and I were you, I'd get a system like mine (though at the higher capacity), and then just fill whatever vessels I was using for water.

Imagine, instead of an aquatainer--which works for me because I'm only doing 5-gallon batches--that instead you fed that RO water right into your boil kettle? Heck, you can run a system like mine off a hose if you wanted. My early system used a hose connect to my sink faucet; in the pics above you can see how I ran a supply line to the sillcock with the red shutoff handle, and it's just screwed on there as if it were an outside faucet.

So--you don't need to put it into an Aquatainer. Just run that line right into the top of your boil kettle, and voila! RO water in your system without lifting anything (I have to lift my Aquatainer to empty it).

Since apparently you need 80 gallons at a shot, that's the only way I can see to do it. Maybe someone else has an idea that would be better, or perhaps w/ some idea of your setup some other way to do this would be good.

BTW, I paid back my RO system in less than a year with savings on storebought water, and I didn't ever have to lug water home from the store. :)
 
I have water unlimited water but it's super soft water and has to go thru a softener to be usuable. We had it tested no problems other than it being super hard. Like soap wouldn't suds or bubble and didn't seem to feel like it cleaned or rinsed off was the obvious thing. But I know from reading around that water from a softener is not suitable for brewing.

I'm not sure about getting another RO system but you've helped me see how it works. I have two 5 gallon jugs I may just have to harvest what I can and make a trip to the RO water place everyday. Hauling 10 gallons a day won't kill me. Not ideal but doable.
 
My RO system is a 75 gpd (gallons per day) system. It needs quite a bit of water pressure to do that, but I know there are ways to add a pressure pump to it. I only need 15 gallons for a brew day, and it takes several hours at my water pressure. I store it right in the HLT as it fills, so no storage tank is needed.

I bought mine from bulkreefsupply.com for about $119, and its been great for quite a few years now.
 
[...]My issue is I am unfamiliar with RO systems and how I go about harvesting as much as I can per day. The manual for the RO system says it can make up to 50 gallons per day but it varies on different factors.

So what do I do just turn on the water and will it run until it runs out then I wait a day to do it again? I know it has a storage tank under the sink near the whole filter/membrane assembly the storage tank is 3 gallons. Does that mean I can harvest it 3 gallons at a time? Thanks for any help!

You can harvest it at whatever rate the RO system is producing and not wait for the pressure reservoir to fill. That tank is present to present finished water at a rate suitable for filling small vessels without waiting on the actual membrane throughput. Just run your line to your holding vessel and leave it open until you've collected your brewing liquor.

As for the RO system production "factors", the RO throughput is primarily affected by input water pressure and temperature. Low pressure or cold water reduces the output rate. You can easily solve the first one if it's an issue and always have the input water to the membrane (and after all the pre-filters and carbon filters) at optimum pressure by adding a booster pump. My 50 gpd system was rated so at 90psi but my well pump could be anywhere between the 35/55 psi kick-in/kick-out range, and the actual output rate was closer to 25 gpd. I recently installed a booster pump that pushes the water to the membrane at 80 psi and the output is now 2.27 gph - actually a bit higher than spec.

fwiw, for my 10 gallon batches I collect roughly 21 gallons of brew day water in my kettles the day before. As my kettles are all 20 gallons I run a branch line from my RO system straight into the BK, then hook the BK drain to its pump input with the pump output hooked to the HLT drain. I leave all the valves open and eventually the BK fills enough to flow through the pump (which is off the whole time, of course) and on up into the HLT. From that point the HLT is about two quarts behind the BK so I fill the latter to its 12 gallon mark before shutting the RO down.

Anyway, bottom line is you should get a handle on the actual throughput - not the stored volume but the gallons per hour that comes out of the RO faucet after the pressure tank is exhausted - and compare that to your system's specifications. If what you're drawing is much slower than spec you might give HBT member Russ @Buckeye_Hydro a ring. He was a huge help getting my system up to peak...

Cheers!
 
I fill right to my HLT, no tank. I have a 100 GPD system, but it varies A LOT seasonanally. Right now its running about 75 GPD, but in August at peak ground water temps it'll push 160 GPD easily.

If i were going to do a lot of brewing i'd do like what you're doing and start a few days before, because you can't make it on demand unless you have a system spec'd many many times more than the typical residential systems are.
 
In case it wasn't clear, you can just let the output line drain into your kettle. It will work at a trickle once the pressure tank is empty, but it will keep trickling at whatever capacity your system can produce.

You will need to watch it to shut it off unless you install some sort of float switch or other shutoff device.

I replaced the small 3 gallon tank on mine with a 14 gallon pressure tank. It means I have enough water on demand for my 5 gallon batches.
 
Thank you all for the replies I think I have a handle on what to do now.

Now I ask all you RO guys what do you add to your RO water to make it suitable for brewing? I've been perusing here and the Net and the whole water thing seems way more complex than making beer! I found some simple recipes for water like Amber, Dark or Pale add these ect. But the article talks about it using distilled water. Any difference? Back in Maine I just used my well water and never worried about it and made great beer but we had great well water. I would just like to get in the ball park I don't want to buy a chemistry set and honestly I was horrible at chemistry 35 yrs ago in high school.

I did get gypsum, calcium chloride and sodium bicarbonate. Which seemed to be the common additives
 
Get bruNWater. Takes 30-60 mins to learn, but after, you are all set

Getting Bru'n Water is great advice. It is well worth the investment of time and small amount of money. Martin, who created the software, is a frequent contributor on the forum with advice too. A great resource.

You could also check out the water primer thread. It is exactly what you asked for, a simple place to start. The trick to that thread is to only read the first post! After that the thousands of replies only stand to muddy the waters. lol. If you are going to move beyond the primer and start tinkering, then definitely get Bru'n Water.
 
I think I've tried both and got lost fairly quickly.

Is bru'n like something that I can just type in my water type and beer I'm making and will just tell me what to do? I don't think I'll learn it well. I'll try reading that 1st post of the water primer again tho.

Are distilled water and RO water basically the same as far as brewing goes?
 
Be aware that the RO membrane process is very sensitive to the 'viscosity' of water. It might not seem like it, but cold water has more viscosity (flows more slowly) than warmer water. That reduces the throughput of a RO system. If your system is located in a cold garage or the water supply is still freezy-cold when it enters the machine, you could benefit from some modifications. Relocate your system to a warmer location or add a significant length of inlet tubing to help the water warm up before processing.
 
You must have had lucky water to have been brewing all this time w/ a 1 bbl system and never paid attention to water.

RO and Distilled are essentially the same thing.

The spreadsheets take into account how much grain you're using, what kind of grain (darker grain is more acidic), your water composition, and lets you adjust the water for various goals, including and perhaps most important, pH in the mash.

Interesting water tidbit: places famous for dark beers, e.g. England, have very alkaline water. They needed dark malts, which are highly acidic, to offset that alkalinity and get the pH into the range it needs to be. Places famous for lighter beers--Pilsen Germany, e.g., have soft, low-alkaline water. So their water worked best with light malts which aren't as acidic. In other words, the water determined the kind of beer best brewed there.

Water additions also influence sulfite/chloride ratios which affect beer flavor, as well as some other things, but the beauty of the spreadsheets is you can simply enter ingredients and see what you need to do to get the water correct.

Do you check pH in the mash?
 
I think I've tried both and got lost fairly quickly.

Is bru'n like something that I can just type in my water type and beer I'm making and will just tell me what to do? I don't think I'll learn it well. I'll try reading that 1st post of the water primer again tho.

Are distilled water and RO water basically the same as far as brewing goes?

That’s why I said only read the first post. If you do that it gets you close without knowing anything about what you are doing.

Bru’n Water is intimidating at first, but if you spend a little time with it it isn’t hard to use. Admittedly I am like a monkey at a typewriter when I’m using it. I just put in my malt, pick a water profile that seems to make sense, then start juggling mineral additions until I find something that is close to target and more importantly gets my PH in range.

I have no idea of the chemistry of what is going on really. Just a sense that some things make PH go up and some make it go down. [emoji6]
 
No I haven't brewed yet it took me almost 3 year to scrimp and save and put everything together. Including about 4K just for the two fermenters and glycol system. I knew all along water would be my last hurdle but if worse comes to worse I knew I'd have haul it from the RO water place.

My RO system is under the kitchen sink but the water source is a well and its winter here so it will be cold. I'm just gonna collect what I can and go haul the rest. Not ideal but for me better than brewing 10 gallon batches.

If RO and distilled is about the same I think I can read that post and between that and brew liquor recipes I already found I should be ok.

Thanks guys!
 
As mentioned by many above, water temperature, and water pressure at the RO membrane are the two primary factors that affect the speed at which a membrane will purify water. We have a calculator here: http://www.buckeyehydro.com/calculator/
where you can input the factor gpd rating of the membrane, your water temperature, and your water pressure - and then the calculator will tell you how many gpd you'll actually get under those conditions.

Arguably the best residential scale RO membranes on the market are produced by DOW under the brand name FILMTEC. These membranes are available in 24, 36, 50, 75, and 100 gpd. They are all factory tested at 50 psi and 77F. We also carry 150 and 200 gpd residential membranes made by a different company using DOW Filmtec material. They are factory tested at 65 psi and 77F. All of the membranes I've mentioned here fit into the same housing and can be swapped one for another if you for instance would like faster production. If you do that, you'll also want a flow restrictor that matches the membrane production.
http://www.buckeyehydro.com/capillary-flow-restrictors/

Russ
 
If your system is located in a cold garage or the water supply is still freezy-cold when it enters the machine, you could benefit from some modifications. Relocate your system to a warmer location or add a significant length of inlet tubing to help the water warm up before processing.

I'd typically not recommend adding a significant length of inlet tubing as a practical solution. Why? First, most people will try this with 1/4" tubing. You'll lose pressure in a significant length of 1/4" tubing feeding a residential system. OK, you can jump up to 3/8" tubing... but then you have to deal with the fact that the polyethylene walls of the tubing are good insulators. So how about using copper tubing coiled in a 5 gallon bucket with a 1000 watt thermostatically controlled heater? Works like a charm, except in just minutes the copper tubing sucks every bit of warmth out of the bucket, the 1000 watt heater can't keep up, and you're no longer heating the feedwater.

The most practical way to address cold (meaning colder than 77F) feedwater is 1) use a membrane with a higher gpd rating, or 2) add pressure with a booster pump. Let's look at an example.

Let's say your system has a 50 gpd RO membrane and you're feeding it 45 psi water at 55F. Using the calculator we can see that your actual production will be only 29 gpd.

Now, if you installed a pressure boosting pump on the same system using the same membrane and adjusted the pump to 80 psi with the same 55F water, you'd get 53 gpd.
 
This might be a good place to address another issue that often comes up - typically with customers buying their first RO system. They will look at the gpd ratings of the membranes - be it 24, 36, 50, 75, 100, 150, or 200 gpd, and think something along the lines "Good grief... I only need 10 gallons to brew, why in the world would I even consider anything above lowest capacity membrane (24 gpd)?"

Remember that these ratings are in terms of flow - meaning volume per unit time. You could express 24 gallons per day for instance as:
1 gallon per hour, or
0.02 gallons per minute

And we know from my previous post that you're not likely to get the rated capacity because your pressure and/or temperature is unlikely to meet the factory spec's.

Bottom line: these residential-scale systems make purified water slooooooooowly.

So regardless of how many gallons you need, just remember that for example, a 100 gpd membrane will make that same volume twice as fast as a 50 gpd membrane. That, coupled with the fact that jumping up from an uber-slow membrane (e.g., 24 gpd) to a faster membrane (e.g., 100 gpd) is only a matter of a few bucks; makes the choice of membrane capacity a no-brainer... opt for a faster membrane. If you call and talk with us about getting a system, THAT's why we'll likely point your towards a 100 gpd unit.

Russ
 
One last thing... for those of you that might be thinking about warming the feedwater to your residential scale RO system. Some might be thinking about using an off-the-shelf blending valve or a "tempering valve."

I'll give you $1 if you can find such a valve that will produce tempered water:
  • between 75 and 80F,
  • at flows around 0.25 gpm.

These valves exist for commercial RO systems where the gpm throughput is much faster, but you'll not find one with spec's suitable for the application we're discussing here.

Russ
 
I have the Eco Water ERO 175 I think it's called. It was an option added to our water softener package from the water company we use. I believe in the specs it says you can buy a 100gpd membrane to replace the 50gpd one. No idea what the costs are tho.
 
I have the Eco Water ERO 175 I think it's called. It was an option added to our water softener package from the water company we use. I believe in the specs it says you can buy a 100gpd membrane to replace the 50gpd one. No idea what the costs are tho.

Here's a page that gives the relative prices of different membranes. The difference between the 50gpd membrane, which I have, and the 100gpd membrane, which I want to buy, is less than $9. The new 100gpd membrane is $44.99, but you also need to change the capillary flow restrictor which is $4.

EDITED TO ADD. Here's the actual URL, which I neglected to include the first time:

http://www.buckeyehydro.com/residential-ro-membranes/

At some point I'm going to upgrade my 50 gpd membrane to 100 gpd. When the water gets cold, it's just a little slow for me.
 
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That’s why I said only read the first post. If you do that it gets you close without knowing anything about what you are doing.

Bru’n Water is intimidating at first, but if you spend a little time with it it isn’t hard to use. Admittedly I am like a monkey at a typewriter when I’m using it. I just put in my malt, pick a water profile that seems to make sense, then start juggling mineral additions until I find something that is close to target and more importantly gets my PH in range.

I have no idea of the chemistry of what is going on really. Just a sense that some things make PH go up and some make it go down. [emoji6]

I'll second this (including the monkey with a typewriter!) for several reasons. First, Martin is an active poster here and and chimed in with great advice every single time I've asked a water question. Second, Since using Bru'n Water my beers are turning out fantastic...like high end commercial quality (better than 80% of the micro and nano breweries around here). Third, it's not that expensive and it's really powerful. There's just no reason not to use it.

I'm not chemistry expert (1 semester in college about 35 years ago), and I don't really understand the chemistry, but you can work with the water adjustment page and tweak things around until you get to the desired profile. As far as what to go after, I have my own profile for IPAs, but for other beers I've chosen one of the profiles in the spreadsheet with good luck.

Don't freak out on it. Read the instructions and play around. After an hour or two, you'll start to understand what it's doing and then you can use it without knowing all the chemistry going on behind the scenes. I'm sure there's value to knowing that stuff, but it isn't necessary to brew quality beer (or maybe I've just gotten lucky).

Water makes a huge difference in the quality of your beer.
 
Ookayy...that was not a paid endorsement, but thanks!

I've placed some recommendations for purchasing your own RO system on the Bru'n Water Facebook page. You'll really have to go back a number of years in the feed to find them, but you should see plenty of other helpful guidance in there. A number one recommendation that I can make is to NOT BUY A PROPRIETARY RO SYSTEM!!!!!!!! Then you are stuck with a higher initial cost and subsequent replacement filter costs. Its not worth it and the components used in typical non-proprietary RO systems are standard. Visit a reputable vendor like Buckeye, if your antsy about a purchase.

Russ, given the low feed flow rate, the head loss in a 1/4" tube isn't going to amount to much.
 
Russ, given the low feed flow rate, the head loss in a 1/4" tube isn't going to amount to much.

Although that may be the case for drinking water RO's (meaning something super slow, like 12 gpd), anything over about 20 feet of 1/4" tube and you'll start losing pressure, noticeably when dealing with something like a 75 gpd membrane. We ran the tests in-house years ago...

Russ
 
Yeah we pay a monthly fee for our whole water treatment system. We are only in this state to take care of elderly in laws spending money to buy where we may move anytime wasn't what we wanted. But we needed a new softening system and the RO drinking water was an add on. We'd been hauling drinking water previously.

But if getting the water needed for brew day is too much of a pain I will surely look at buying a stand alone high output system thats just for brewing. I'm going to start harvesting tomorrow (wed) for a Sunday brew day so we'll see how it goes.
 
ok question it says this "Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist."

First sauermalz? I assume this is a grain of some sort? The grist? Is that my grain bill? So if it's 56lbs so I'd add 1.12 lbs of the sauermalz?

Now the recipe guide I found online for an amber beer is 1 tsp of gypsum, 1 tsp calcium chloride and 3/4 tsp baking soda. This is from beerandwinejournal.com

I donated to brunwater and am water to get the email from them.
 
ok question it says this "Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist."

First sauermalz? I assume this is a grain of some sort? The grist? Is that my grain bill? So if it's 56lbs so I'd add 1.12 lbs of the sauermalz?

If you're using RO water and brewing lagers that advice may work for you based on the grain bill (and alkalinity thereof). Sauermalz is base grain sprayed with lactic acid. Grist is a common term for the grain bill or more precisely the grain bill (all grains) combined and milled. Yes, 2% of 56lbs is 1.12lbs.

Now the recipe guide I found online for an amber beer is 1 tsp of gypsum, 1 tsp calcium chloride and 3/4 tsp baking soda. This is from beerandwinejournal.com

I donated to brunwater and am water to get the email from them.

If you're brewing an Amber and using RO water that advice might work for you based on the grain bill (and alkalinity thereof).

*************************************************************************************

List your recipe or the style you're brewing and someone should be able to help with advice on the water salts/acids needed.
 
ok question it says this "Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist."

First sauermalz? I assume this is a grain of some sort? The grist? Is that my grain bill? So if it's 56lbs so I'd add 1.12 lbs of the sauermalz?

Now the recipe guide I found online for an amber beer is 1 tsp of gypsum, 1 tsp calcium chloride and 3/4 tsp baking soda. This is from beerandwinejournal.com

I donated to brunwater and am water to get the email from them.

1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate to each 5 gallons? Assuming that's CACL2, I typically add 5 grams to 5 gallons. I don't know how many grams is a teaspoon (level? heaping? I hate volume measures like that), but it seems very high for 5 gallons to me.

[And when I say "typically" what I mean is that it depends on the recipe, but I follow what the spreadsheet says to add.]

Sauermalz is acidified grain. In other words, a way to add acid. I personally add lactic acid. Sauermalz was developed so brewers following the Reinheitsgetbot, the German Beer Purity law, could adjust pH.

I assume the other recommendation for water additions is for a 1 bbl batch? Otherwise seems very high to me.
 
I'm making a red ale and a nut brown I have another water recipe for the brown.

I rarely make lager since it's my least favorite.
 
Although that may be the case for drinking water RO's (meaning something super slow, like 12 gpd), anything over about 20 feet of 1/4" tube and you'll start losing pressure, noticeably when dealing with something like a 75 gpd membrane. We ran the tests in-house years ago...

Just saw this play out again when we did some maintenance on a residential scale system with a 100 gpd membrane at a customer's facility (the Cincinnati Zoo). 1/4" feedwater tube was about 20 feet long, and gauge pressure was about 35 psi. We replaced the 1/4" tube with 3/8" tube and the higher flow resulted in 50 psi at the membrane.

Russ
 
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