RIMS strike temp / circulation start

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Bru

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
839
Reaction score
4
Location
Johannesburg, South Africa
My RIMS tube is almost ready to roll - first brew with it is planned for this weekend.
I will be heating the strike water in the HLT with gas and then transferring it to the MLT (cooler) for dough-in. LG will circulate through the RIMS
(1500W) to maintain temps.

-What temp do you aim for at dough in ? Do you start lower and then increase using the RIMS or aim for desired mash temp ?
(single infusion mash)

-How long do you wait after striking before starting to recirculate ?
 

SporkD2

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
736
Reaction score
1
Location
San Antonio
Most people I know mash in a little low and then let the RIMS do the rest.
 

MattHollingsworth

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
1,609
Reaction score
53
Location
Samobor, Croatia
I usually just mash in at room temp and use the RIMS to heat it up. I start recirc and heating immediately, but my RIMS has a rake that stirs during mashing. Sounds like your system is maybe different. Sometimes, but rarely, I heat the water to start my mash around 100, then go up from there. But I usually just start at room temp. I don't think doing it that way's important or anything, but it's the way I do it and it works nicely.
 
OP
B

Bru

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
839
Reaction score
4
Location
Johannesburg, South Africa
Thats interesting. I didn't consider starting at room temp.
How many Watts is your RIMS element ? Mine is 1500W.
How long (+-) does it take to get to your desired temp from room temp (single infusion) ?
I assume conversion starts at lower temps but as long as you follow the same process each time you get consistency ?
 

MattHollingsworth

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
1,609
Reaction score
53
Location
Samobor, Croatia
Thats interesting. I didn't consider starting at room temp.
How many Watts is your RIMS element ? Mine is 1500W.
How long (+-) does it take to get to your desired temp from room temp (single infusion) ?
I assume conversion starts at lower temps but as long as you follow the same process each time you get consistency ?
Mine's 1500 W also.

It takes some time to raise the temp. It depends on the gravity and size of the batch. The more grain in the mash tun, the longer it takes. Usually, for me, for around a 21 liter batch at 1.055 or something, it goes at around 1.5 degrees F per minute or in that neighborhood. If I was going from 70 to 150 then, it'd take somewhere around an hour to raise the temp. I don't pay close attention to how long it takes, so this is a guesstimate. If time is a worry, then you can always heat your strike water, which is faster obviously. For me, time is not usually a consideration because I'm always doing something while the heating up is going on.

For higher gravity where there's a lot more grain, raising the temp takes quite a bit longer. My whole brew day takes longer.

And yeah, my beer's are pretty consistent. I don't have overly dry beers or anything, so it's not over converting.
 

Hawgbranch

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2008
Messages
312
Reaction score
0
Location
Shreveport
I usually just mash in at room temp and use the RIMS to heat it up. I start recirc and heating immediately, but my RIMS has a rake that stirs during mashing. Sounds like your system is maybe different. Sometimes, but rarely, I heat the water to start my mash around 100, then go up from there. But I usually just start at room temp. I don't think doing it that way's important or anything, but it's the way I do it and it works nicely.

Matt, you got pics of that RIMs/Rake? I am looking to create a motorized rake for my MT.

Thanks!
 

bobz

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
0
Location
Lakewood
I have been using a rims for 15 yrs. I dough in at 100F and ramp to whatever step I want.
T have a 5000 watt element and use 110v. The important thing to remember is to size at 15 watts per lineal inch of element. 5000 watts is rated at 220v. at 110 the effect wattage is less. I forget the factor. I limit the current to 80% with the PID. If you do not follow these rules you will barbecue your wort ---- bobz
 

samc

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
5,366
Reaction score
78
Location
Portland OR
Normally I just shoot for hitting the Mash temp dead on. Usually works great although the last brew I overshot by a lot. The temps came down quick but it seems like starting lower and ramping up might be a good idea. 10+ gallon batch with 2000 watt element however is slow to ramp.
 

bobz

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
0
Location
Lakewood
Most immersion elements are rated at 220v If you use 110v the effective wattage is about 25%. Low watt density is what you should shoot for 15watt/inch of element. My element is about 36 inches and folded and I still have to limit with my PID to 80%. I ramp at 1.5F degree/min for 12 gal brew. -bobz
 

Sawdustguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
2,701
Reaction score
44
Location
Manorville, New York
I usually just mash in at room temp and use the RIMS to heat it up. I start recirc and heating immediately, but my RIMS has a rake that stirs during mashing. Sounds like your system is maybe different. Sometimes, but rarely, I heat the water to start my mash around 100, then go up from there. But I usually just start at room temp. I don't think doing it that way's important or anything, but it's the way I do it and it works nicely.
Won't that lead to a watery, bodyless beer if you are using a fully modified grain? It's like your are step mashing.
 

Reelale

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
17,735
Reaction score
1,374
I was thinking the exact same thing. I always try to strive for strike water to equal mash temperature as soon as possible. I always heat strike to achieve mash temperature and simply use the rims tube to maintain that temperature during the recirculation. Most always, 60 mins.
 

bobz

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
0
Location
Lakewood
Sawdustguy - mouth-feel is complex - conversion temp - nonformentables - grist
You are the brewer and determine the procedure. Years ago I asked Jeff Renner what was the steps he used for his CAP (Classic American Pilsner) He said ramp thru the rests until I reached my saccharification rest. Never had a problem with mouthfeel. ----bobz
 
OP
B

Bru

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
839
Reaction score
4
Location
Johannesburg, South Africa
And once you've reach 150 do you maintain for the usual hour ?

Mine's 1500 W also.

It takes some time to raise the temp. It depends on the gravity and size of the batch. The more grain in the mash tun, the longer it takes. Usually, for me, for around a 21 liter batch at 1.055 or something, it goes at around 1.5 degrees F per minute or in that neighborhood. If I was going from 70 to 150 then, it'd take somewhere around an hour to raise the temp. I don't pay close attention to how long it takes, so this is a guesstimate. If time is a worry, then you can always heat your strike water, which is faster obviously. For me, time is not usually a consideration because I'm always doing something while the heating up is going on.

For higher gravity where there's a lot more grain, raising the temp takes quite a bit longer. My whole brew day takes longer.

And yeah, my beer's are pretty consistent. I don't have overly dry beers or anything, so it's not over converting.
 

MattHollingsworth

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
1,609
Reaction score
53
Location
Samobor, Croatia
Won't that lead to a watery, bodyless beer if you are using a fully modified grain? It's like your are step mashing.
Nope. I never have a problem with it. My beers have plenty of body. And I do actual step mashing on some of them once in a while and those have no problem with body either. You ever step mash?

And once you've reach 150 do you maintain for the usual hour ?
Yes.
 

bobz

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
0
Location
Lakewood
I would refer you to Gorge Fix's Analysis of Brewing Techniques. Fix's steps are 40-50-60-70- centigrade the 40C can be eliminated if you are concerned about the protein rest. Ramping does not spend too much time at 40C. Time at rests are the brewers intention depending on the product produced. -bobz
 

Sawdustguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
2,701
Reaction score
44
Location
Manorville, New York
I have been using a rims for 15 yrs. I dough in at 100F and ramp to whatever step I want.
T have a 5000 watt element and use 110v. The important thing to remember is to size at 15 watts per lineal inch of element. 5000 watts is rated at 220v. at 110 the effect wattage is less. I forget the factor. I limit the current to 80% with the PID. If you do not follow these rules you will barbecue your wort ---- bobz
It is a quarter of the power, in your case 1250 watts. There been some experiments done by members with 5500 HWD elements in their RIMS tube and they claim that they do not scortch their mash. The jury is out on scortched mashes. IIRC the members who did the experiment was Sizz and CodeRage.
 

bobz

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
21
Reaction score
0
Location
Lakewood
Dion Hollenbeck the father of the rims system has a web page that covers most of the questions. Do a Google. The main point of not scorching the wort is low watt density < 15watt/cube inch of rod that's why a super long folded element is used. Later research may provide better equipment or control. KISS
bobz
 

OLDBREW

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
759
Reaction score
5
Location
SJ
that watery thin beer talk, is just that. very seldom will a protein rest do that, unless the malt was designed for single saach rest only.. sometimes called "turbo malts".

decoctions are held at lower temps for long periods of time with no problems.
 

Sawdustguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
2,701
Reaction score
44
Location
Manorville, New York
that watery thin beer talk, is just that. very seldom will a protein rest do that, unless the malt was designed for single saach rest only.. sometimes called "turbo malts".

decoctions are held at lower temps for long periods of time with no problems.
Palmer, who wrote the book "How to Brew" and Charlie Papazian disagree with you. Almost all of the domestically available malts today are fully modified. Commercial breweries like Budweiser specifically undermodify their malts for step mashing because it is less expensive to step mash than take the time to allow the Acrospire to grow to the point of full modification.

Quoted from "How to Brew" from Palmer

The temperature and pH ranges for these two proteolytic enzymes overlap. The optimum pH range is 4.2 - 5.3 and both enzymes are active enough between 113 - 131°F that talking about an optimum range for each is not relevant. This optimum pH range is a bit low with respect to most mashes, but the typical mash pH of 5.3 is not out of the ballpark. There is no need to attempt to lower the mash pH to facilitate the use of these enzymes. The typical Protein Rest at 120 - 130°F is used to break up proteins which might otherwise cause chill haze and can improve the head retention. This rest should only be used when using moderately-modified malts, or when using fully modified malts with a large proportion (>25%) of unmalted grain, e.g. flaked barley, wheat, rye, or oatmeal. Using this rest in a mash consisting mainly of fully modified malts would break up the proteins responsible for body and head retention and result in a thin, watery beer. The standard time for a protein rest is 20 - 30 minutes.
 

BrewSpook

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2008
Messages
447
Reaction score
9
Location
Richmond, VA
I use a no-sparge RIMs for my setup. I take it up 1 degree C higher than my target, mash in and let sit for 10 minutes stirring every 2 minutes to make sure I don't have any dough balls or dry spots. Then I start a 40 minute recirc. after that I set to mash out temps and let it go for 10-15 minutes then drain right into the kettle. Works like a charm.
 

OLDBREW

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
759
Reaction score
5
Location
SJ
Palmer, who wrote the book "How to Brew" and Charlie Papazian disagree with you. Almost all of the domestically available malts today are fully modified[/b]. Commercial breweries like Budweiser specifically undermodify their malts for step mashing because it is less expensive to step mash than take the time to allow the Acrospire to grow to the point of full modification.
that my friend is far from true when it comes to malts from around the world.

I haven't used american malts for quite some time personally. Briess is one of the companies that make those turbo type malts.

Buzzard Bay brewery doughs in all their brews in at 122*f then heats their mash up to saach rest temps

doc fix said a kolbach rating of over 46 was very highly modified. 40 - 42 is moderately modified but wont make your brew watery thin with a short protein rest

i work with malts that are under 40 kolbach very frequently. have you read your actual malt analysis report on your specific sack lot, or do you rely on a programs generic reference.

by the way.. when you step mash using the same water to grain ratio, it is different then step mashing by infusion mashing where you add higher water to grain ratios with each step.

run a rms or herms rig, then tell me those statements hold true.

john and charlie both were/are infusion step mashers


talk to kristen england aka mashweasel over on the nb board about decoction and worrying about protein rest temps
 

Sawdustguy

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
2,701
Reaction score
44
Location
Manorville, New York
that my friend is far from true when it comes to malts from around the world.
I agree with you 100% my old friend. You just have to know what type of malt you are dealing with. The solution is simple if one is not sure. Just ask for a Malt Analysis sheet. If you find that the malt is fully modified a single infusion mash is in order, if it is an undermodified malt, plan a mash schedule with protein rests. It couldn't be easier.
 
Top