RIMs rocket + HLT = 50 amp service?

[drksky]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if I want to use a RIMs rocket (3500w) to recirculate the mash and maintain temp, I'll need to run 50amp service if I want to heat sparge water at the same time with a boil coil (4500w), correct?

Just for that reason alone it would seem to be better to go with a HERMs coil in the HLT instead, especially since I've already got a 30amp circuit.

Back-to-back brews are not an option.

Edit: I'm already doing an electric boil with a simple Still Dragon controller, but I'm trying to do some planning for completing a 3-vessel electric system and am looking at control panel options. Hence, 30 or 50A.

 

[The Pol]

Both heaters will draw slightly over 33A. So yeah, you'd be looking at 50A service.

Me, I'd go electric HLT with a HERMS. It's just simpler. Simple is beautiful.

 

[mabrungard]

Yep, you do need a 50a service if you will be simultaneously running the RIMS and HLT with elements that large. I built my system with 50a capacity for that reason. I note that the electric brewery guy uses a 30a service and limits which circuit is running, so as to avoid overloading the circuit.

Hmm? Pol's method has some merit since the HLT will be doing double duty. However, that method will end up reducing the capacity of your HLT since it would be filled with coils of tubing. Its not really a problem if you can oversize the HLT to accommodate the volume loss.

 

[schematix]

The Pol - Check your numbers. The coils are 240V, not 120V.

I am doing a 50A service (old oven circuit) for my control panel with boil coils in HLT and BK (5000W ea) and a rims rocket (3500W). If all elements were going full blast it would pull about 56 amps, plus a little for pumps and controls. In reality this won't happen though:

Phase 1 (Pre-Mash) - 100% HLT, 0% RIMs, 0% BK - Heat strike water
Phase 2 (Mash) - 100% HLT, 100% RIMs, 0% BK - Re-Heat sparge water & step mash
Phase 3 (Lauter) - 10% HLT, 0% RIMS, 100% BK - Maintain HLT heat & heat wort
Phase 4 (Boil) - 100% HLT (CIP water), 0% RIMs, 50% BK - Heat CIP water & maintain boil

As you can see, the 3 devices don't have the potential to be going at the same time, let alone full power at the same time.

Even if you were to do back-to-back brews i think you'll still be ok since your boil will be dialed back to ~50% power while you mash the second batch.

Bottom line, 30A isn't enough. 50A should cover most.

 

[drksky]

Yep, you do need a 50a service if you will be simultaneously running the RIMS and HLT with elements that large. I built my system with 50a capacity for that reason. I note that the electric brewery guy uses a 30a service and limits which circuit is running, so as to avoid overloading the circuit.

Hmm? Pol's method has some merit since the HLT will be doing double duty. However, that method will end up reducing the capacity of your HLT since it would be filled with coils of tubing. Its not really a problem if you can oversize the HLT to accommodate the volume loss.

I'm using 10 gallon kettles for 5-gallon batches. Should be enough, right? The HERMS coil (using Kal's small as an example) only displaces a half gallon of water.

 

[The Pol]

The Pol - Check your numbers. The coils are 240V, not 120V.

I am doing a 50A service (old oven circuit) for my control panel with boil coils in HLT and BK (5000W ea) and a rims rocket (3500W). If all elements were going full blast it would pull about 56 amps, plus a little for pumps and controls. In reality this won't happen though:

Phase 1 (Pre-Mash) - 100% HLT, 0% RIMs, 0% BK - Heat strike water
Phase 2 (Mash) - 100% HLT, 100% RIMs, 0% BK - Re-Heat sparge water & step mash
Phase 3 (Lauter) - 10% HLT, 0% RIMS, 100% BK - Maintain HLT heat & heat wort
Phase 4 (Boil) - 100% HLT (CIP water), 0% RIMs, 50% BK - Heat CIP water & maintain boil

As you can see, the 3 devices don't have the potential to be going at the same time, let alone full power at the same time.

Even if you were to do back-to-back brews i think you'll still be ok since your boil will be dialed back to ~50% power while you mash the second batch.

Bottom line, 30A isn't enough. 50A should cover most.

Check what numbers?

8000W of power, 240VAC, at one time, is 33.3A

Also, most guys who are using electric, use SSRs, which are ON or OFF, meaning that there is no such thing as 10% or 50%. They may be using a 50% duty cycle, but you can bet that when the element is heating, it is pulling 100% of the amps. An element running a 50% duty cycle, is still pulling 100% of its amps. Example, a 5000W heater at 50% duty cycle, is still using 21A.

10 gallon vessels will work fine for 5 gallon brews, I used them on my first electric HERMS in 2007.

 

[augiedoggy]

The real question I have is if your batches are small enough to use a 4500w element in the HLT then why such a monstrous 3500w rims tube? most run 240v elements at 120v and put closer to 1300-1400w through thier rims tube with great success and less potential for possible scortching...

I use a 1000w 240v rims tube and this works fine running with a 4500w element drawing less than 25a with multiple dc pumps running at the same time..(I should add that I step mash with this too but use a cooler as a mlt and do 5-10g batches)

 

[schematix]

Check what numbers?

8000W of power, 240VAC, at one time, is 33.3A

Also, most guys who are using electric, use SSRs, which are ON or OFF, meaning that there is no such thing as 10% or 50%. They may be using a 50% duty cycle, but you can bet that when the element is heating, it is pulling 100% of the amps. An element running a 50% duty cycle, is still pulling 100% of its amps. Example, a 5000W heater at 50% duty cycle, is still using 21A.

10 gallon vessels will work fine for 5 gallon brews, I used them on my first electric HERMS in 2007.

Pol - My misunderstanding. I thought you meant each would draw 33.

As far as fuse sizing goes, you can pull more than the rated current for some period of time and not blow a fuse or trip the breaker. Fuses and circuit breakers have trip curves that define this relationship. Sizing this precisely is more complex than I care to elaborate at the moment, but a crude approximation should work fine here.

 

[z-bob]

40A circuit should be enough (use 50A connectors.) That means you can run 8 gauge wire instead of 6 (assuming copper), and #8 is cheaper and a lot easier to work with.

 

[drksky]

The real question I have is if your batches are small enough to use a 4500w element in the HLT then why such a monstrous 3500w rims tube? most run 240v elements at 120v and put closer to 1300-1400w through thier rims tube with great success and less potential for possible scortching...

I use a 1000w 240v rims tube and this works fine running with a 4500w element drawing less than 25a with multiple dc pumps running at the same time..(I should add that I step mash with this too but use a cooler as a mlt and do 5-10g batches)

I was just going on the size of the Rims Rocket, which has a 3500w, 240v element in it.

 

[The Pol]

Just do what makes you happy.

NOTHING is absolute in brewing. Remember when you had to chill wort quickly or your beer would be swill? Things have changed.

The best part of building your brewing system, is building YOUR brewing system.

My last RIMS heater was 9000W, so 3500W is small in comparison... Catch my drift? The inter webs are full of experts, go your own way.

 

[JoshuaW]

I'm planning a similar build, however I do at least have 50A at my disposal. The control panel I am looking at is only setup for two elements though, so while I can switch plugs between the RIMS Rocket and a Boilcoil, I would like to avoid that.

To work around, I'm planning on heading my strike water in the BK, mashing in, running the rims, mashing out, then trying to run the sparge water directly through the RIMS. I have seen large RIMS units act as on demand hot water, but I'm not sure the RIMS Rocket is powerful enough. If not, then heat some water in the BK first. In your case, you would have to power off the RIMS for a few minutes while you ran the second element.

For what it is worth, I believe the 10 gallon Boilcoil is only 3750 watts.

 

[The Pol]

With 3500W you can heat 60F water to 160f at a rate of .21 gallons per minute. So, if you sparge at about 1qt per minute, you can do it just fine.

 

[drksky]

For what it is worth, I believe the 10 gallon Boilcoil is only 3750 watts.

Oops, you are correct. Must've misread the chart when I was looking it up.

I'm still debating on the exact final form of my system. I may try doing a sort of modified BrewEasy 2-vessel set up. Can't actually get the breweasy parts cause I've got two 10-gallon pots, but I don't see why I can't build a similar set up without the fancy stacking ring.

I'm thinking a two-tier bench with the BK on top and MLT on the bottom. Gravity feed into the MLT and recirculate back up the BK in a sort of continuous 2-tier sparge which is essentially what the BrewEasy system is except with the MLT on top. Don't see why it wouldn't work the other way around.

 

[The Pol]

Isn't the Breweasy just an uber expensive, equipment heavy, BIAB?

I seriously think my next system will be one kettle, one pump, one element. Recirculating BIAB, pull the grain, boil, drain hot into a fermentor and no chill it.

Have a bottom drain in the kettle, use a hop spider, and CIP.

For less than half the cost of the Breweasy.

Unless it does something that I am unaware of?

 

[drksky]

Isn't the Breweasy just an uber expensive, equipment heavy, BIAB?

I seriously think my next system will be one kettle, one pump, one element. Recirculating BIAB, pull the grain, boil, drain hot into a fermentor and no chill it.

Have a bottom drain in the kettle, use a hop spider, and CIP.

For less than half the cost of the Breweasy.

Unless it does something that I am unaware of?

No I think you're essentially correct. With the added convenience of not having to lift a giant bag of wet grain all at once.

Either way, I've already got the two 10-gallon pots, might as well put them to use. I've been bouncing back and forth between a two and three vessel system. I've got most of the parts for the 2-vessel, so might as well give it a try. The only thing I might get screwed on is if I don't like it and have a controller that can only control one pump and element.

 

[The Pol]

When you build your controller, get a larger box than necessary, that way you can expand.

I've stuffed 10 SSRs, a muffin fan, 10 heatsinks, BCS, wireless router, and all of the wiring, inside a 12 x 12 x 8 box. That was 4 240VAC elements and two pumps.

Get a big box.

 

[trussell]

Isn't the Breweasy just an uber expensive, equipment heavy, BIAB?

I seriously think my next system will be one kettle, one pump, one element. Recirculating BIAB, pull the grain, boil, drain hot into a fermentor and no chill it.

Have a bottom drain in the kettle, use a hop spider, and CIP.

For less than half the cost of the Breweasy.

Unless it does something that I am unaware of?

I was thinking of doing that as well.

I did a BIAB, sparge bag to get boil volume and drain hot to a HDPE bucket. Made for short all grain brew day and much less cleanup.

 

[The Pol]

Yeah. One pump, simple control panel build with one PID, an element kill switch, and pump switch. $150 control panel build.

I will even go fancy with the stainless mesh basket instead of a bag.

If you insist on using two vessels, you are building a Brutus 20. Easy setup.

 

[drksky]

Yeah. One pump, simple control panel build with one PID, an element kill switch, and pump switch. $150 control panel build.

I will even go fancy with the stainless mesh basket instead of a bag.

If you insist on using two vessels, you are building a Brutus 20. Easy setup.

I think I've seen other BrewEasy threads that compare it to a modified Brutus what with the cross circulation between two vessels.

 

[augiedoggy]

Isn't the Breweasy just an uber expensive, equipment heavy, BIAB?

I seriously think my next system will be one kettle, one pump, one element. Recirculating BIAB, pull the grain, boil, drain hot into a fermentor and no chill it.

Have a bottom drain in the kettle, use a hop spider, and CIP.

For less than half the cost of the Breweasy.

Unless it does something that I am unaware of?

What happen to "Just do what makes you happy"
And

"The best part of building your brewing system, is building YOUR brewing system."

 

[The Pol]

Yes, because the Brutus 20 was the "Breweasy" back in 2007. Both, are another way of performing BIAB.

It is interesting that all of the HBT innovations of 2007-2009, are being manufactured and sold by companies now. Many of those ideas were not well received back then, or fully understood. Funny how grass roots home brewers innovated these things, and places like Blichmann bring them to market.

 

[SleepyCreekBrews]

My HLT and Rims tube run on 110V and those are never running when the BK is on. So you can see how it's practically unnecessary for a 50 amp circuit

These run together
HLT- 4500W / 4 =1100 W = 10A
RIMS - 4500W/4=1100W = 10A
that's only 20A

This runs seperate
BK - 5400W = 24A

A single element in the HLT makes for a slow warmup, so it I'm in a hurry, I can either plug the 240V into it for 4500W or leave it on 110V and plumb the RIMS tube into the circulation for an extra 1100W
YMMV

 

[The Pol]

What happen to "Just do what makes you happy"
And

"The best part of building your brewing system, is building YOUR brewing system."

That still applies. I was talking about MY build, and asking if there was something I missed about the B.E.

I don't care what this guy builds, I'm just trying to understand the differences in the systems that he is contemplating. In that way, I can better offer an opinion based on my experiences. Seek to understand first, then seek to be understood.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes, because the Brutus 20 was the "Breweasy" back in 2007. Both, are another way of performing BIAB.

It is interesting that all of the HBT innovations of 2007-2009, are being manufactured and sold by companies now. Many of those ideas were not well received back then, or fully understood. Funny how grass roots home brewers innovated these things, and places like Blichmann bring them to market.

because if it has a big name behind it it must be good and its sure to impress. So people who worry about safety of DIY or look down on it don't think twice about spending. 2-6 times as much for a big name and the customer service they believe they can only get from it.
That's why I can help but look at the Diy systems that companies like high gravity put together for a few hundred bucks and sell for like $1500 bucks... and people jump on it like its a great deal?

 

[augiedoggy]

That still applies. I was talking about MY build, and asking if there was something I missed about the B.E.

I don't care what this guy builds, I'm just trying to understand the differences in the systems that he is contemplating. In that way, I can better offer an opinion based on my experiences. Seek to understand first, then seek to be understood.

As I was when asking why he thought he needed a 3500w rims tube... After asking that question It appears he really is not sure that he does and the 50a service as well as such a powerful rims setup may not be as justified as he thought..
If you need to bring a liquid up to higher temps quickly something like that is useful... if your building a rims tube to maintain mash temps in a small 10 gallon or less setup its simply overkill. My impressions of biab is its a lower cost simplier alternative way or doing things... I was confused when I saw reference to 50a service being needed for something like this. And more so when I saw reference to such a large rims setup for it but again is he is using unmodified grain and wants to do step mashes very quickly I guess...
I have no idea where a 9000w rims tube would be justified on a small home brewing rig though.... That just eludes me but then again I am no expert and you must know something I don't...

 

[drksky]

because if it has a big name behind it it must be good and its sure to impress so people who worry about safety of DIY or look down on it don't think twice about spending. 2-6 times as much for a big name and the customer service they believe they can only get from it.
That's why I can help but look at the Diy systems that companies like high gravity put together for a few hundred bucks and sell for like $1500 bucks... and people jump on it like its a great deal?

This is what's really got me hung up on a controller. Looking at the HG stuff, it's obvious they're using a $22 plastic box from Menard's or Lowe's and maybe $100 of control parts and selling for $495 for one PID, pump and boil control.

At least Kal's panels look professionally built, but I still think they are ridiculously expensive.

I'll have to actually sit down and price out separately sourced parts to see the price difference. Unfortunately, the controller is also probably the most difficult and daunting part of a built.

 

[The Pol]

I'm no expert.

Sometimes things are built, not because they are necessary, but because one can. In my case, I used the RIMS at 9000W to heat strike water, and at 4500W for the recirc. Overkill, surely, but so was wifi control.

That is where build your own system, comes into play.

My only point was, on the inter web, one will receive 100 opinions. When only one matters, the opinion of the builder. Some people become overwhelmed with information and opinions, especially in technical forums.

My comment wasn't directed toward you, so I don't think it's necessary to internalize it. No harm, no foul.

 

[The Pol]

This is what's really got me hung up on a controller. Looking at the HG stuff, it's obvious they're using a $22 plastic box from Menard's or Lowe's and maybe $100 of control parts and selling for $495 for one PID, pump and boil control.

At least Kal's panels look professionally built, but I still think they are ridiculously expensive.

I'll have to actually sit down and price out separately sourced parts to see the price difference. Unfortunately, the controller is also probably the most difficult and daunting part of a built.

You are correct. For one pump, two elements, and PID control, you'd be around $200.

 

[augiedoggy]

This is what's really got me hung up on a controller. Looking at the HG stuff, it's obvious they're using a $22 plastic box from Menard's or Lowe's and maybe $100 of control parts and selling for $495 for one PID, pump and boil control.

At least Kal's panels look professionally built, but I still think they are ridiculously expensive.

I'll have to actually sit down and price out separately sourced parts to see the price difference. Unfortunately, the controller is also probably the most difficult and daunting part of a built.

Exactly.... there kits with a $99 pot, $150 pump and $150-175 at most control box is well over a grand.... I used the same $30 plastic enclosure for my sub $300 Kal/ EB inspired build I am building another panel now to sell on craigslist to make some most to fund my purchase of matching kettles... they are not hard just time consuming if you make them complicated...
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/facelift-my-control-panel-497593/

 

[augiedoggy]

You are correct. For one pump, two elements, and PID control, you'd be around $200.

You can actually build a three pid (with manual mode)/3 element, timer,alarm and three pump control (DC with pwm speed control) box for under $300... see my link above. add another $60 for 3 3gallon per minute fda approved hot liquid pumps and $50 for 2 4500w elements + SO cable and fittings and you can build everything minus the kettles and rims tube for about $500...

 

[The Pol]

I like the DC motor idea. The flow rates are pretty low, but in a 2.5 gallon system they would be perfect.

 

[augiedoggy]

I like the DC motor idea. The flow rates are pretty low, but in a 2.5 gallon system they would be perfect.

Honestly the 3 gallons a minute has been more than enough flow for sparge and recirculating the mash as well as pumping through my plate chiller... I actually turn them down depending.... and this is with 5 or 10 gallon batches.

 

[The Pol]

Ahh, the ones I saw were only 3L/min....

Ahh, I just found one that is 720L/H, so that is 3gal/min

So you have a DC converter in the box, and a PWM to control it... ?