RIMS/HERMS Terminology

[Bobby_M]

I was contemplating system designs and such and think there is some confusing terminology thrown around. I'm not elitist in thinking I have it all figured out, but I think the WIKI needs some work. My apologies to whoever contributed but it doesn't sound right. Can we discuss this?

Recirculating mash systems generally

No matter what acronym is used to describe them, all recirculating mash systems work in essentially the same way. A portion of the wort is forced out of the mash tun using a pump, heated, and then returned to the mash tun.

These systems have three main benefits:

* The constant recirculation gives a much cleaner wort during lautering than a manual vorlauf
* The temperature can be held more constant than using other heating methods
* The process as a whole results in a more consistently repeatable mash

[edit] Types and components of recirculating mash systems
[edit] RIMS

RIMS stands for Recirculation Infusion Mash System. This refers to a recirculating mash system in which the recirculated wort is passed directly over a heating element. In many such systems, the pump operates constantly during the mash, and the heating element is cycled off and on to maintain the desired mash temperature. Common heating elements used in home-built RIMS systems are home hot water heater elements encased in a copper pipe with an inlet and outlet.
[edit] HERMS
Herms System‎
Herms System‎

HERMS stands for Heat Exchanged Recirculating Mash System. In a HERMS system, the wort is passed through the a heat exchanger, usually a copper manifold, that is suspended in hot liquid. Usually the hot liquor tank is used. Because the rate of heat exchange cannot be adjusted, the temperature is controlled by cycling the pump itself on and off.

The WIKI intro part says

all recirculating mash systems work in essentially the same way. A portion of the wort is forced out of the mash tun using a pump, heated, and then returned to the mash tun.

However, in direct fired tuns, the heating is done prior to the drain and recirc.

I believe RIMS is generally just a term for a mash that is recirculated period no matter what you do about temp control (if anything). From there, you might implement a step mashing/temp maintenance system to go along with it. That can be direct heat like flame or immersed element or by heating inline with the recirculation (HERMS).

Does that make sense? If so you have:
-RIMS
-Direct Fired RIMS
-HERMS (I think this includes any RIMS system that applies heat external to the mash tun including inline electric elements, immersed coils, plate exchangers, etc).

 

[caskconditioned]

The equipment used for a RIMS vs. a HERMS is different. With a RIMS the heating element is inside another container (pipe) and the wort is heated as it passed through the pipe. With a HERMS, you heat the wort by passing it through a coil that is contained in a kettle or chamber with water. The heater is inside the container. When you are doing direct heating - say you have a burner under the mash-tun - you are simply recirculating. Hope I'm not confusing things but this is how I understand it.

 

[The Pol]

My opinion of HERMS and RIMS was that RIMS used direct heat to the wort, and HERMS was passive. Which is where the "HE" comes from... "Heat Exchange".
In a RIMS you are not exchanging heat, you are directly heating it via an element in a small tube, or direct fire under the MLT.

 

[Bobby_M]

The equipment used for a RIMS vs. a HERMS is different. With a RIMS the heating element is inside another container (pipe) and the wort is heated as it passed through the pipe. With a HERMS, you heat the wort by passing it through a coil that is contained in a kettle or chamber with water. The heater is inside the container. When you are doing direct heating - say you have a burner under the mash-tun - you are simply recirculating. Hope I'm not confusing things but this is how I understand it.

That's where I have a problem. I'm suggesting that a direct fired mashtun with recirculation is absolutely a RIMS. I wouldn't say there's RIMS, HERMS, and then direct heated...

I agree with Pol. In my OP, I suggested that an inline element in direct contact with mash liquid would be HERMS but I think it fits RIMS better.

So, recirculation with direct wort heating (inside or outside the MLT) is RIMS.
Recirculation with indirect heat or "heat exchange" inline with the mash flow is HERMS.

Does anyone disagree with that? Why?

 

[The Pol]

Yeah, I think there is RIMS and HERMS... IMHO... RIMS and DIRECT FIRE heat and recirculate the mash, but without the "HE" of the HERMS

 

[caskconditioned]

Taking the direct heating method out of the equation for now - the main difference between RIMS and HERMS is that in a HERMS you are not directly heating the wort (eg. the wort never touches the heating element). Water is heated and that is used to heat the coil that exchanges (HE) the heat (as Pol pointed out).

With a RIMS system, the wort does come into contact the heating element. The 'I' in RIMS referring to infusing the wort w/ a heating element (not infusion in terms of mashing in). I know it sounds like I'm splitting hairs here, but I'm just arguing from the point of how the two techniques got their name (i think).

As for direct heating with FIRE, the difference in regards to RIMS is that you are using fire instead of an heating element. You are recirculating but in a different manner. Maybe there needs to be a third acronym - DRMS (direct recirculation mash system). Anyways, just explaining my view of things. Cheers!

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

No one here is contesting how the terms get there name nor the process.

What is being contested here is that a Direct Fired, Recirculatory system is in fact a RIMS type of system.

However, there is a small detail. You state that the "I" is in the context of the wort being infused with the heating element and, to me, that makes no sense at all.

With a heting element type RIMS you are in fact INFUSING the bulk mash with hot wort to bring the temp up or to stabilize. Same goes for HERMS.
So, that argument has no distinction between system types except when you Direct Fire. Then, and only then, there is no infusion whatsoever. You simply pump the wort to eliminate stratification and mitigate the potential for malliard reactions.

I give Bobby_M my +1 that DF and RIMS are, essentially, the same animal.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think the definitions can be exclusive but still broad enough to encompass real world implementations. I'll try again:

RIMS - Recirculating mash system that uses direct heat on the mash liquid either in the mashtun or inline with the recirculation system. This covers systems that use flame or electrical heating elements that apply heat directly to the wort (whether it is applied to the tun directly or the recirculation loop).

HERMS - Recirculating mash system that uses indirect heat applied to the recirculation path to control the temperature of the mash. This includes immersing the path in a dedicated vessel of temp controlled hot water, in the HLT, or by running through any other kind of heat exchanger.

I agree with GILA is that the "I" is meant as "infusion" meaning the initial temp is arrived at by a measured infusion at a certain temp but I think it was literally included so that it wasn't acryonym'd as "RMS". It wouldn't ring out like a real word.
The fact is, both RIMS and HERMS systems hit their initial dough in temp in various ways.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I agree with GILA is that the "I" is meant as "infusion" meaning the initial temp is arrived at by a measured infusion at a certain temp but I think it was literally included so that it wasn't acryonym'd as "RMS". It wouldn't ring out like a real word.

Yeah. Brewing by method of Root Mean Square doesn't sound very productive at all.

 

[caskconditioned]

No one here is contesting how the terms get there name nor the process.

What is being contested here is that a Direct Fired, Recirculatory system is in fact a RIMS type of system.

However, there is a small detail. You state that the "I" is in the context of the wort being infused with the heating element and, to me, that makes no sense at all.

With a heting element type RIMS you are in fact INFUSING the bulk mash with hot wort to bring the temp up or to stabilize. Same goes for HERMS.
So, that argument has no distinction between system types except when you Direct Fire. Then, and only then, there is no infusion whatsoever. You simply pump the wort to eliminate stratification and mitigate the potential for malliard reactions.

I give Bobby_M my +1 that DF and RIMS are, essentially, the same animal.

I stand corrected.

 

[Hex]

RIMS -- Directly heating wort with a heat source with a temperature greater than 212 deg f.

HERMS -- Directly heating wort with a heat source with a temperature less than or equal to 212 deg f.

Decoction -- Directly heating wet grain with a heat source...

Steam -- Directly heating mash with 212+ deg f. steam.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

RIMS -- Directly heating wort with a heat source with a temperature greater than 212 deg f.

HERMS -- Directly heating wort with a heat source with a temperature less than or equal to 212 deg f.

Decoction -- Directly heating wet grain with a heat source...

Steam -- Directly heating mash with 212+ deg f. steam.

Brew Magic -- Direct Firing a recirculated mash tun to target rest temp and then employing a votage limited heating element (kept below 212 to eliminate scorching) to maintain targeted rest temp indefinitely.

 

[zymurgy101]

RIMS -- Directly heating wort with a heat source with a temperature greater than 212 deg f.

HERMS -- Directly heating wort with a heat source with a temperature less than or equal to 212 deg f.

Decoction -- Directly heating wet grain with a heat source...

Steam -- Directly heating mash with 212+ deg f. steam.

Wouldn't the HERMS definition be "indirectly heating wort with a heat source..."? My reasoning is that the true heat source is whatever is heating the water (flame, etc) and then the water is heating the HE (such as coil, etc).

 

[Bobby_M]

What about running wort through a plate chiller where steam is run through the other chamber?

 

[zymurgy101]

What about running worth through a plate chiller where steam is run through the other chamber?

My first thought was RIMS, but the other chamber of the plate chiller isn't the direct source of heat (something is generating the steam). Moreover, would you want steam to be the source? That would be like the above HERMS definition, but instead using boiling water which seems like it would generate too much heat for the wort to be returned to the MLT.

 

[Bobby_M]

My first thought was RIMS, but the other chamber of the plate chiller isn't the direct source of heat (something is generating the steam). Moreover, would you want steam to be the source? That would be like the above HERMS definition, but instead using boiling water which seems like it would generate too much heat for the wort to be returned to the MLT.

One reason I could imagine using steam is that you don't need a pump. Granted I'm not making a case for doing this but rather injecting it into the discussion to see if RIMS/HERMS definitions hold up.

 

[klyph]

I think all HERMS are RIMS but not all RIMS are HERMS.

Both use the principle Recirculating (heat) Infusion Mash Systems, but some RIMS use a HEX, so they are a subspecies of RIMS.

Decoction and steam are distinctly different, but I don't really see much need to distinguish RIMS from HERMS.