Reverse Dough-in

[thekraken]

Anyone dough in by pumping strike water into their MLT from underneath the grains?

I hear this method mentioned from time to time, and even remember one pro brewer saying this is the method they use.

I think I remember the pro saying he did it that way to avoid hot side aeration. Besides that, and because I'm convinced hsa is not anything a home brewer needs to worry about, can you think of any advantages to doughing in this way?

Would all the grains get saturated and could you avoid stirring/mixing the grains in?

For the record I brew on a RIMS system with a beer cooler mash tun.

 

[metric]

I use this technique all the time. I find that I get a more even mixing of grain with strike water without getting dough balls compared to adding grain directly to strike water. A caveat however is that I do full volume mashes, i.e. all brewing water in the mash, with no sparge so I am pumping a lot of water through the grain bed. You may or may not achieve as even mixing using lower volumes of water.

 

[Natdavis777]

I believe this is called "underletting". Ive seen/read of homebrewers doing this. I think the big takeaway from it was minimizing dough balls like metric stated.

 

[thekraken]

Ahh, underletting. Strange how the right key words make google work so much better. Thanks fellas.

 

[biertourist]

Regardless of whether you underlet or add the water to the top / sparge fitting, IMHO, adding water to the grain is the way to go vs. adding grain to your water.

When you add grain to your water the first charges of grain are temporarily exposed to high temperatures which can begin to degrade enzymes.

On the subject of HSA: underletting should actually introduce LESS oxygen vs. adding the water to the top or using a British-style grist hydrator (can't remember the name of the stupid thing; it's named after some guy and just mixes hot water and the grain together as it falls through a very specific angle tube).



Underletting is often a technique that's used to help with a stuck sparge as it can temporarily "refloat" the mash and unstick it. (How else are you going to do it with 100s of pounds of grain, when you don't have a lauter tun with spinning forks and knives?)


Adam

 

[thekraken]

Regardless of whether you underlet or add the water to the top / sparge fitting, IMHO, adding water to the grain is the way to go vs. adding grain to your water.

Would sprinkling the water on top of my dry grain bed be more inclined to form dough balls? I can't logically think of why it would perform differently than underletting but it just sorta feels wrong as I imagine it. ( I use a sparge manifold that gently "showers" on top of the grain bed during recirc )

 

[biertourist]

Would sprinkling the water on top of my dry grain bed be more inclined to form dough balls? I can't logically think of why it would perform differently than underletting but it just sorta feels wrong as I imagine it. ( I use a sparge manifold that gently "showers" on top of the grain bed during recirc )

I honestly for the life of me can't figure out why underletting would result in LESS dough balls.

If you're very rapidly bringing the grain up above gelatinization temp but before everything gets wetted then you could end up with dough balls.

I guess if you are adding water slowly to grain it would start out at below the gelatinization temp and get wet before it start gelatinizing....


I got nothing... Only a theory.


Adam

 

[PLOVE]

I honestly for the life of me can't figure out why underletting would result in LESS dough balls.

I'm right there with you. . . why would it result in LESS dough balls. I always underlet, but it's mainly because I have find that this approach essentially floats the grain up off of the false bottom. I can mix grain/water much more easily with my mash paddle in suspension, than when it is stuck to the bottom. Also seems to prevent stuck mashes. . .

 

[JonW]

I'm right there with you. . . why would it result in LESS dough balls. I always underlet, but it's mainly because I have find that this approach essentially floats the grain up off of the false bottom. I can mix grain/water much more easily with my mash paddle in suspension, than when it is stuck to the bottom. Also seems to prevent stuck mashes. . .

So are you saying you still get dough balls, but that they're easier to mix back in?

 

[thekraken]

I'm right there with you. . . why would it result in LESS dough balls. I always underlet, but it's mainly because I have find that this approach essentially floats the grain up off of the false bottom.

Hmmmm. Just spitballing here but maybe that is a reason that underletting might be better? Floating the grain above the water, then using gravity to pull the grains into the water might help saturate the grain better than letting the water work its way down from above?

Whatever... I'll give it a shot next brew day and see what happens. I'll sprinkle water in from above since I worry that the pump might just blow my cpvc manifold out of place.

 

[Rcbandl]

This past weekend I was using my new pump for the first time so i decided to try underletting my mash. I just pumped my strike water into the mashtun through the ball valve. I have to say i was pleased with the result. The mash was very fluid with no clumps at all.

After I hit my volume, I stirred in a little and everything was nice and loose. I will be using this method from now on. Its alot better than stirring in the grain. And it will be even nicer when my rims system is up and running.

 

[Carlscan26]

Has anyone Seen a change in efficiency by using this method? I tried it on my last brew (usually add grain to the water) still hit my temps, etc. but ended up 10 PST low!

 

[cmoewes]

I started doing this after watching some austrialian homebrewer on youtube (time4another??) and it works really well. It seems to me that the grain mashes in much more smoothly and results in very few dough balls. At least that has been my experience.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Has anyone Seen a change in efficiency by using this method? I tried it on my last brew (usually add grain to the water) still hit my temps, etc. but ended up 10 PST low!

Can't say for sure how much just underletting affects mash efficiency, but I can say that I do on occasion get 96% mash efficiency and I do the underletting thing all the time. Mash pH and grain crush affects efficiency way more than how to mix the grains and water together, as far as I can tell. I just use the underletting method because it's just easier to let the water flow in using the valve instead of draping a hose over the top of the mash tun.

 

[DemonsRun]

I underlet all the time, but the real reason I've been doing it that was that I find it easier, and I don't have stuck sparge issues in my RIMS. now that its been mentioned I have never had dough ball issues with underletting. I've also never noticed it affecting my efficiency which tends to be 84-86%.

 

[thekraken]

and I don't have stuck sparge issues in my RIMS.

Do you recirculate by underletting?

 

[DemonsRun]

No, I just do it for dough-in.
But if I put a screen on top to keep the grain from getting sucked up, would be an interesting experiment. The Braumeister does a reverse recirculation.

 

[thekraken]

A reverse circulation would mean no worries about stuck sparge, or channeling. You could recirculate full throttle which would make for faster/easier temperature control. The only downside that comes to mind is you'd lose the filtering action...I suppose you could go back to normal circulation for a few minutes at the end of the mash to solve that issue.

 

[Rcbandl]

Can't say for sure how much just underletting affects mash efficiency, but I can say that I do on occasion get 96% mash efficiency and I do the underletting thing all the time. Mash pH and grain crush affects efficiency way more than how to mix the grains and water together, as far as I can tell. I just use the underletting method because it's just easier to let the water flow in using the valve instead of draping a hose over the top of the mash tun.

96%??????????????????????????

I am waving the BS flag on this one. I think you need to check your calculations.

 

[thekraken]

96%??????????????????????????

I am waving the BS flag on this one. I think you need to check your calculations.

I think he's referring to conversion efficiency, not brew house efficiency.
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/inde...cy#What_affects_the_conversion_efficiency_.3F

 

[LandoLincoln]

I think he's referring to conversion efficiency, not brew house efficiency.
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/inde...cy#What_affects_the_conversion_efficiency_.3F

I did specify mash efficiency, not brewhouse efficiency.

 

[fimpster]

I have used the underletting method for for my last 10 or so batches (didn't know that's what it was called though). I do it to prevent dough balls. My kettle and mash tun are on the same level, I open the valves but don't turn on the pump (yet) and I just let gravity s l o w l y move water from one vessel to the other until enough strike water has been moved or they reach equilibrium. If I need more strike water, then I will restrict the valve on my pump output and turn the pump on to s l o w l y continue pumping into my MLT. I have tried pumping it quickly, but that doesn't have the effect of slowly saturating the grain so as to prevent dough balls.

 

[Bellybuster]

I tried it with my last system and found no benefit what so ever. You'll still stir like a bastage to ensure you have no dough balls.
I have since returned to adding grain to water due to brewing single vessel now.

 

[metric]

I wonder if the false bottom/screen setup on your mash tun affects dough ball formation when 'underletting'? I have a perforated manifold at the bottom of my mash tun, so that when I am underletting, water is being introduced across a large area at a consistent rate. I never restrict the flow of water in my system, just pump water at the max rate my pump allows until I reach my mash volume. Note that I do full volume mashes, so I imagine the larger volume of water also helps.

 

[Rcbandl]

I tried it with my last system and found no benefit what so ever. You'll still stir like a bastage to ensure you have no dough balls.
I have since returned to adding grain to water due to brewing single vessel now.

The type of mash tun and drain setup probably has a little to do with it. I have a 10 gallon round rubbermaid cooler and a false bottom. When I tried it I had to do minimal stirring after adding the water and not one clump.

 

[fimpster]

I also have a 10 gallon cooler with just a bazooka screen. If I fill slowly, a quick stir is all it takes for no dough balls.

 

[NoahBeach]

I underlet every time I brew, I even starting milling grains straight into the MLT, no accidental spilled grain from the bucket or dust cloud in my face.

 

[fimpster]

... I even starting milling grains straight into the MLT, no accidental spilled grain from the bucket or dust cloud in my face.

Now that's an interesting technique I will have to try.

 

[fimpster]

Deleting duplicate. Stupid phone app.

 

[Ben58]

Tried this method this morning. I did stir it up for the minerals added. I like this approach.

 

[Rcbandl]

Just did a second and third brew the past 2 days and the results are the same. A loose fluid mash with absolutely no clumps.

The difference I am noticing is when either adding grains to the water or water to the grains from the top, you get air trapped whereas with underletting you are slowly pushing the air out from the bottom.

I cant comment on any change in efficiency because I just started using a rims system. So the increase I am getting is from the recirculation.

 

[Carlscan26]

Just did a second and third brew the past 2 days and the results are the same. A loose fluid mash with absolutely no clumps.



The difference I am noticing is when either adding grains to the water or water to the grains from the top, you get air trapped whereas with underletting you are slowly pushing the air out from the bottom.



I cant comment on any change in efficiency because I just started using a rims system. So the increase I am getting is from the recirculation.

Do you have a false bottom, a manifold or a braid/bazooka type pick up?

 

[Rcbandl]

Do you have a false bottom, a manifold or a braid/bazooka type pick up?

Domed false bottom in a 10 gallon rubbermaid.


I will say that with a different setup, say a square/rectangular cooler and a manifold, I can see the results may be different.