Reis Helles...possible?

[Soulshine2]

Im trying to come up with a gluten free recipe that doesnt use sorghum. My dad has celiac and would like to have beer but he doesnt like the sorghum in most gfs so hes basically given up. I'm playing around on a recipe builder and so far have come up with this...what do y'all think? Please excuse the arrows and red minus , I just copy/pasted from the builder page.
33% Flaked Rice - US

22% Flaked Corn - US

11% Rolled Oats - US

6% Honey - US

11% Grits - US

11% Flaked Oats - US

6% Cane Sugar - US

9 lb
HOPS

1 ozHerkules 13.3
.5 oz Saaz 3.6

YEAST

Fermentis Safbrew WB-06

 

[Soulshine2]

Anyone , anyone? Beuller , Beuller????

 

[KeinGluten]

I'm not sure I can speak to the recipe itself, though I'm wondering what your conversion plan is, since none of that looks enzymatic. Do you have external enzymes you plan to use? Sorry to not really answer the question, but I thought I'd bring this up in case you hadn't considered it.

 

[Soulshine2]

No, thats pretty much what Id need to know.
I had posted one a year ago I think. someone said I needed barley in it for the enzymes ...and Im like NO, it still has gluten.

 

[Miraculix]

A helles is a lager, your yeast is a wheat beer type of ale yeast. That doesn't work.

I also wouldn't eat oats if I would be celiac as the protein in oats is pretty similar to gluten and often triggers something.

 

[Soulshine2]

A helles is a lager, your yeast is a wheat beer type of ale yeast. That doesn't work.

I also wouldn't eat oats if I would be celiac as the protein in oats is pretty similar to gluten and often triggers something.

Nope, my dad has no issues with oatmeal and eats it every day. He can have oats , rice , corn ,millet ,buckwheat and I think quinoa . Just can't have anything wheat ,rye or barley.

and I wasnt set on that yeast but the yeast I had selected had the highest attenuation in my temperature range.

 

[Miraculix]

Nope, my dad has no issues with oatmeal and eats it every day. He can have oats , rice , corn ,and I think quinoa . Just can't have anything in the wheat family.

and I wasnt set on that yeast but the yeast I had selected had the highest attenuation in my temperature range.

This is not how you select a yeast. Think about the flavour you want and then choose the yeast that gives you that flavour.

You could use mangrove Jack California lager, that works well at room temperature and is a lager yeast.

 

[Soulshine2]

I'm not sure I can speak to the recipe itself, though I'm wondering what your conversion plan is, since none of that looks enzymatic. Do you have external enzymes you plan to use? Sorry to not really answer the question, but I thought I'd bring this up in case you hadn't considered it.

low enzymes. I'll use Amylase enzymes for that. my son is up north near the LHBS .I asked him to pick me up a 1 oz bottle . only need 1 tsp per 5 gallons.

 

[Soulshine2]

This is not how you select a yeast. Think about the flavour you want and then choose the yeast that gives you that flavour.

You could use mangrove Jack California lager, that works well at room temperature and is a lager yeast.

I understand. I can change the yeast ,its not a big deal as much as the "grain bill" .Im just trying to make something my dad can drink that he hasnt already tried something similar before and poured the rest out. Its the sorghum aftertaste hes had in the past is what stops him. Just experimenting with options.
I'll look into the Mangrove Jack , thanks for the suggestion

 

[Miraculix]

I understand. I can change the yeast ,its not a big deal as much as the "grain bill" .Im just trying to make something my dad can drink that he hasnt already tried something similar before and poured the rest out. Its the sorghum aftertaste hes had in the past is what stops him. Just experimenting with options.
I'll look into the Mangrove Jack , thanks for the suggestion

You can also try sorghum but with added clarity ferm. This is an enzyme that should eliminate chill haze, but apparently it also eliminates the sorghum twang.

Lots of people tried it here in the forum and where quiet pleased with the results. You can look it up here in the forum.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Oats are gluten free. I think the only reason many sources are not is because of cross contamination as oats are a common rotation crop with wheat. Sources like Bobs Redmill are gluten free.

That being said, many of us don’t like to use oats.

There are many recipes and advice for mash plan on this forum, especially if you use malted grain (rice, millet, buckwheat). If you want to use unmalted grain, look at posts from Legume.

If you are going all grain, i would not use extra sugars and stuff like that. Water, grain, enzymes, hops, yeast and a good process is all you need.

 

[Soulshine2]

Oats are gluten free. I think the only reason many sources are not is because of cross contamination as oats are a common rotation crop with wheat. Sources like Bobs Redmill are gluten free.

That being said, many of us don’t like to use oats.

There are many recipes and advice for mash plan on this forum, especially if you use malted grain (rice, millet, buckwheat). If you want to use unmalted grain, look at posts from Legume.

If you are going all grain, i would not use extra sugars and stuff like that. Water, grain, enzymes, hops, yeast and a good process is all you need.

I found his thread. I read it and am following , but it pretty much stopped in 2015. Thank you.

 

[Soulshine2]

Ok , I'm back to this thread . I have the GF ingredients I plan on using ,including the amylase enzyme. Found a 3 color quinoa today and thought that might make a nice addition , help with color , flavor and help with head retention.
So, if someone could help me with proportions .
I do NOT want to use sorghum as my dad does NOT like the taste of it .
I DO have -
yellow corn meal
white grits
oatmeal
rice , medium grain unconverted. I even was thinking of Uncle Bens or Minute brown instant rice because its already converted.
quinoa
how much of what or what to leave out...going for a simple clean pilsner tasting brew if thats even possible.
Think yellow to amber ,fizzy and slightly hopped , abv of at least a 4% to start with .Sessionable. Pretty basic recipe to build off of.
I'll even go find some millet if that will do anything.

I'm aware of a higher mashing temp necessary . How much quinoa is a good start for both flavoring and head retention purposes. I might roast a little to get the nutty taste it offers.
I'm basically in uncharted waters here. But only wanting to make a 1 gallon /10 bottle batch to try it first. No sense making a full 5 gallons if its experimental.
Much appreciated and many thanks !

 

[glutarded-chris]

I only have experience with mashing with mostly malted grains. I only use a small percentage of unmalted ingredients like flaked corn, so this is probably not much help. For my pale ales I go for about 90-96% pale malts with 4-10% of other stuff like roasted malts such as Crystal, biscuit etc. or flaked corn. Right now I am drinking from a keg with the following:
8 lb pale millet
1.5 lb pale rice
1.5 lb pale buckwheat
0.5 lb crystal rice
0.5 lb biscuit rice

5 gallon batch OG=1.050. 5.5% ABV

You will need a good base malt. I think Legume still uses a large percentage of unmalted millet for her base that she gets locally in the bulk aisle. I would do something like that and then add your quinoa, corn meal, oats etc. in mall amounts. Maybe put some light roast on some.
If you do unmalted, you are going to need Termamyl or something like that, so hopefully that is the enzyme you have.

Do some research on using unmalted rice like instant etc. I don't think you will find many that use it with success.

If this is a 1 gallon exbeeriment, then go for it and post your results!

 

[Soulshine2]

Update ,sort of. This was kind of a fly by the seat of my pants type of brew day rather than my regular routine .

I brewed it yesterday ,took all day too .

My grain bill was -

4 lbs yellow cracked corn
1 lb white corn meal
1 lb white medium grain rice
1 lb rolled oats
1/2 lb tricolored quinoa
all of the above milled
1/2 lb rice hulls added to mash
1/2 lb raw honey(which I found also contains natural amylase enzymes as well as a few others that may help conversion!!)
3 gallons of strike water
I mashed at 180*F for over 2 hours adding more water to maintain a stir-able mixture and the temp until the gelatinous stage seemed to break and a conversion was starting
cooled with 2 gallons to 158 and added 1 tsp amylase enzyme ,the conversion seemed to go much better , rested in the low 150s for an hour . Mixture was now much more milky and watery rather than sticky and thick .
"sparged" to the BK and heated to 158 again ,added another 1 tsp amylase .
Raised heat to rolling boil for 15 minutes, added 1/4 tsp ground Ginger and 1/8 tsp ground coriander , 1 oz German Herkules and boiled for another 45 minutes.
At this point it actually smells and tastes like beer. It is very white with just a hint of color . Reminds me so much of an Allagash White ale.
10 minutes to the end of the boil I added a whirlfloc tablet then shut off the heat.
I did a no chill overnight so I'm still anxious to see what it looks like when I run it to a fermenter.

This is still in the "experimental phase" so I can't answer too many questions at this point.
I'm contemplating dry hopping with Columbus ,I only have .25 oz and its a small batch , might get 1 case of beer out of it after all the sediment falls out and theres a lot .

BUT, if this actually turns to beer I'm calling it

"White Room Cream Ale"

It was a pain in the butt because it required stirring almost the entire time. My bazooka tube in the tun was caked with "porridge" and almost refused to sparge, but after it was converted ,it cleaned up fine. Once I stopped stirring it would all become like a major pot of overcooked breakfast cereal.
Most likely ,I wont attempt this again ,but its for my dad who is 80 yrs old and I want to see him get to enjoy drinking a beer again. Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

[Soulshine2]

OG 1.038
Very milky .racked 3 gallons to the fermenter.
I hope this works.

 

[Miraculix]

OG 1.038
Very milky .racked 3 gallons to the fermenter.
I hope this works.

Sounds like unfinished conversion. But it will be beer. @Legume afaik uses a lot of unmalted millet as his base for his gluten free beers and seems to have good results with this technique. If this one shouldn't give you what you're after, maybe give a 100% millet beer a shot.

 

[Soulshine2]

I have something going here anyway. Its yellow...rather yellow in fact looking more like used beer than anything. Lol. Looks like a very yellow hef. Hopefully in the next few days it will clear up some more. Plus the carboys contents is like half sediment so I hope to get a 12 pack out of it. Thought I'd see a case but I'm not seeing it now. I haven't given up yet!!

 

[Miraculix]

I have something going here anyway. Its yellow...rather yellow in fact looking more like used beer than anything. Lol. Looks like a very yellow hef. Hopefully in the next few days it will clear up some more. Plus the carboys contents is like half sediment so I hope to get a 12 pack out of it. Thought I'd see a case but I'm not seeing it now. I haven't given up yet!!

Very likely that you got a lot of unconverted starch in there. Either not enough enzymes during the "mash", too old enzymes, wrong temperature for the enzymes or just not enough time to let them work.
At least it is yellow

Have you tried it yet?

 

[Soulshine2]

Very likely that you got a lot of unconverted starch in there. Either not enough enzymes during the "mash", too old enzymes, wrong temperature for the enzymes or just not enough time to let them work.
At least it is yellow

Have you tried it yet?

The sediment? I'm sure its unconverted starches as well. I doubled the amount of enzymes it was supposed to take and the temperatures should have been in the range .enzymes too old, I'm not sure of that I had my son pick up the fresh bottle back in January .
no,I have not tasted it yet. Well, I did when I took the OG. It wasnt bad, tasted like beer. I'm going to let it ride most of the weekend and see what the gravity looks like Monday morning.
yes, its yellow and its fermenting so it has a small amount of alcohol . I was expecting it to be much paler more like a white ale, its proving me otherwise.
This being another "first " brew of 2 sorts,I'm pretty much just winging it as a GF and the no chill . Im happy it has come this far.
I joked with my mom about it .I said if it turns out not being good beer ,I can always distill it and it can be GF whiskey. Dad would like that too.

 

[madscientist451]

Would malted oats convert have enough enzymes to convert the other grains?

 

[Miraculix]

Would malted oats convert have enough enzymes to convert the other grains?

They are very slowly self converting according to Scott Janish, so I would say they have not enough power for additional grains.

 

[Lefou]

low enzymes. I'll use Amylase enzymes for that. my son is up north near the LHBS .I asked him to pick me up a 1 oz bottle . only need 1 tsp per 5 gallons.

If you can get amyloglucosidase, even better.
It's an enzyme that goes a step beyond and is the ingredient of choice for the "dry brut IPA" styles everyone is falling all over trying to do.
http://beerandwinejournal.com/brut-ipa-ii/

 

[Soulshine2]

Its still incredibly yellow but it is clearing up more every day. I'm thinking more white corn meal would have been better...If I do decide to brew anything like this again ,I'll be looking for millet.
I still havent tasted it yet , I may do so later .

 

[Soulshine2]

Well. This last few days was good for this beer. It paled a little which it needed to. Not nearly as yellow as used beer,lol. Cleaned up and cleared better than I'd have thought. Final gravity was 1.007 so it's a solid 4% ABV.
I got 18 full bottles plus 1 only about an ounce shy of full , so ill save that one for the brewers 2 week taste test.
Just in time for Father's Day once it's done conditioning.

.