Reducing phenols in a weizen yeast

[bb239605]

This may seem like a weird request, but what I would like to do reduce the amount of phenols present in a hybrid german style wheat I am working on without negatively affecting the banana like esters that come from a traditional German weizen yeast. Personally I don't really enjoy that clove like flavor present in so many be gains and wheat beers, but I do like the ester profile they tend to generate.

So what I am thinking is to raise the fermentation temperature while using a traditional weizen yeast. I believe this will reduce the amount of phenols developed, or at least increase the amount of esters produced, hopefully hiding that clove like flavor I so want to avoid.

Does anyoNe have any experience with this or any recommendations, short of not using wheat malt? What I am after is that traditional German wheat ester profile and aroma without that clove like flavor profile mucking things up.

 

[r2eng]

Seems to me that raising the temp would increase esters... It isn't the wheat creating the esters, it's the yeast and fermentation temps.

I am not sure what you are asking for here - is it to increase banana esters and decrease the clove esters?

To decrease esters, drop the ferm temp a bit - or ferment at the bottom of the temp range.

 

[Shockerengr]

there's a trick involving protein rests that lets you boost the precursor's to the banana esters.

I can't remember exactly what they were, but I think it was an article in BYO or zymurgy.

I know I've had some wheats that people have made that were very banana-y, with very little clove

 

[Beezy]

You people are weird! I am trying to get more of the clove and all I get is bananas. Why don't we just make each other beer? Ferment higher you get more banana. I don't know how high you can go but I have gone mid 70's. Also using the yeast a few generations seems to bring the banana out even more. Easy really. Now the clove on the other hand, decoction mashing and low fermentation temps, whatever it takes!

 

[bb239605]

I believe the clove flavor is not an ester but a phenolic, which comes from, I believe, 4-vinyl guiacol.

Anyway, I am going to try an increased ferm temp, mid to high seventies, then slowly lower it over the course of fermentation. Hopefully that will do the trick. Reduce clove phenols, while maintaining desired esters and lowering the temp before too much bubblegum type flavor develops. Has anyone ever tried this approach?

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

I've used 3068 and let it get into the mid-high 70s. It's all bubblegum in that range. If you ferment around 70-72F and do a direct infusion mash in the 150s you should avoid significant clove flavor.

 

[bb239605]

I've decided to go with the Bavarian wheat which is 3638 I believe. I am going to ferment around 72 and under pitch. This should reduce the amount of phenols produced while increasing ester production. I'll update in a week or so.