Recipe for Pretty Things' Saint Botolph's Town??

[CarbonTom]

I love Pretty Things, and am fortunate enough to have somewhat good access to it living in Rhode Island and working on the Mass border. I was able to get a Saint Botolph's on tap a couple times and it totally knocked my socks off. But haven't been able to find it since December.

I am getting a kegging system set up, so I would love to get a clone of this for ready access.

I am still pretty new to recipe making, so I really have no idea how to reverse engineer it. Their description on the website is too vague for me to decipher anything. Does anyone have any idea where I should start?

 

[JoesInBoston]

I love Pretty Things, and am fortunate enough to have somewhat good access to it living in Rhode Island and working on the Mass border. I was able to get a Saint Botolph's on tap a couple times and it totally knocked my socks off. But haven't been able to find it since December.

I am getting a kegging system set up, so I would love to get a clone of this for ready access.

I am still pretty new to recipe making, so I really have no idea how to reverse engineer it. Their description on the website is too vague for me to decipher anything. Does anyone have any idea where I should start?

I would start by sending Dan and Martha, the couple who runs Pretty Things, a tweet.

https://twitter.com/PrettyBeer

If that gathers no response, I would head over to the BYO recipe for Theakston's Old Peculier, which is what they used as inspiration for St Botolph's Town.

http://byo.com/american-lager/item/1510-theakstons-old-peculier-clone

I would probably use Maris Otter as the base malt, and a small amount of Oat Malt and Torrefied Wheat (since they say on their website they use it) from Thomas Fawcett & Sons, which is where they get their malts for this brew. A couple different crystal malts would probably be appropriate, too.

Also - they state that they use 4 different types of sugar in very small doses. I am taking a guess that those might be any of the following: maltodextrin, dark candy sugar, molasses, treacle syrup or brown sugar.

They say they use Fuggles for bittering, so use that at 35 IBU's.

They say they use two yeasts, a German Ale yeast and a common english strain (Nottingham?)

This is all I think I can help. I don't have much experience brewing brown ales so I don't know how to put it all together, but it should be a start for you.

 

[CarbonTom]

I would start by sending Dan and Martha, the couple who runs Pretty Things, a tweet.

https://twitter.com/PrettyBeer

If that gathers no response, I would head over to the BYO recipe for Theakston's Old Peculier, which is what they used as inspiration for St Botolph's Town.

http://byo.com/american-lager/item/1510-theakstons-old-peculier-clone

I would probably use Maris Otter as the base malt, and a small amount of Oat Malt and Torrefied Wheat (since they say on their website they use it) from Thomas Fawcett & Sons, which is where they get their malts for this brew. A couple different crystal malts would probably be appropriate, too.

Also - they state that they use 4 different types of sugar in very small doses. I am taking a guess that those might be any of the following: maltodextrin, dark candy sugar, molasses, treacle syrup or brown sugar.

They say they use Fuggles for bittering, so use that at 35 IBU's.

They say they use two yeasts, a German Ale yeast and a common english strain (Nottingham?)

This is all I think I can help. I don't have much experience brewing brown ales so I don't know how to put it all together, but it should be a start for you.

Great idea, thanks for all this information. I will try and dig in and maybe try out the Theakstons and tweak from there. Much appreciated.

 

[CarbonTom]

I would start by sending Dan and Martha, the couple who runs Pretty Things, a tweet.

https://twitter.com/PrettyBeer

If that gathers no response, I would head over to the BYO recipe for Theakston's Old Peculier, which is what they used as inspiration for St Botolph's Town.

http://byo.com/american-lager/item/1510-theakstons-old-peculier-clone

I would probably use Maris Otter as the base malt, and a small amount of Oat Malt and Torrefied Wheat (since they say on their website they use it) from Thomas Fawcett & Sons, which is where they get their malts for this brew. A couple different crystal malts would probably be appropriate, too.

Also - they state that they use 4 different types of sugar in very small doses. I am taking a guess that those might be any of the following: maltodextrin, dark candy sugar, molasses, treacle syrup or brown sugar.

They say they use Fuggles for bittering, so use that at 35 IBU's.

They say they use two yeasts, a German Ale yeast and a common english strain (Nottingham?)

This is all I think I can help. I don't have much experience brewing brown ales so I don't know how to put it all together, but it should be a start for you.

Great idea, thanks for all this information. I will try and dig in and maybe try out the Theakstons and tweak from there. Much appreciated.

 

[CarbonTom]

...I would probably use Maris Otter as the base malt, and a small amount of Oat Malt and Torrefied Wheat (since they say on their website they use it) from Thomas Fawcett & Sons, which is where they get their malts for this brew. A couple different crystal malts would probably be appropriate, too.

Also - they state that they use 4 different types of sugar in very small doses. I am taking a guess that those might be any of the following: maltodextrin, dark candy sugar, molasses, treacle syrup or brown sugar.....

If I was to do an AG version of Theaksons of this how much maris otter should I use?

Also how much sugar is a small dose? Ive never done sugar before in a beer and I would like to try and formulate this.

Thanks again for your advise.

 

[JoesInBoston]

I took a stab at an AG version of the BYO recipe and uploaded it to Brewtoad. It is here: http://www.brewtoad.com/recipes/theakstons

Since the Old Ale extract is a hopped extract, I added more bittering hops than the BYO recipe. This should also bring the IBU's closer to the Pretty Things beer. I added some more crystal 60 and wheat malt to account for the amber extract in the BYO article, too.

Mash at 152 and ferment at 65.

Hope that helps. Let me know how it goes!

 

[CarbonTom]

Getting closer on this one. Will post the recipe once I get a chance to balance it out. Thanks for the AG start up.

Had one of these this weekend and there was a some sediment. I wonder if I could culture the yeast?? Im not certain that it is bottle primed, but its worth a shot right?

 

[JoesInBoston]

Maybe? I don't think they filter the St Botolph's or use a different yeast at bottling. It can'r hurt to try. Though if the use two different yeasts in their process, your chances of duplicating it exactly are slim as one yeast may be more bountiful than the other in the bottle sediment.

 

[FarmerTed]

You should check Brewing Classic Styles. I'm pretty sure that Jamil has a clone recipe for Old Peculiar as his old ale recipe. It's a lot less crazy than the BYO recipe (old ale malt extract? Lol!).

 

[CarbonTom]

Alrighty, so after some brainstorming and consulting with my LHBS who knows the beer very well, here is what I will be doing with my first attempt:

Saint Theakstons
Style: Old Ale
All grain 5 gal
OG 1.075
FG 1.013
ABV 8.14%
IBU: 39
Color 30.3 SRM

Grains:
10 lb Maris Otter
8 oz Crystal 60
8 oz Crystal 20
4 oz Crystal 80
4 oz Black Malt
8oz Malted Oats
4 oz torrified wheat

Fermentables:
8 oz Dark Candy Sugar (D-45)
8 oz Treacle
8 oz Lyles Golden Syrup

Hops
2 oz Fuggles 5% AA 60min

Other:
4 oz Malto Dextrine
1 tsp Yeast Nutrient

Yeast:
WLP028 Edinburgh (Should I do a starter since the higher grav?)

I know the calculated OG is pretty high, This will be my 3rd all grain (2nd on my own) and my efficiency is roughly 68-70% so it will likely be lower.

Should I cut the sugar and syrups down a bit to get the closer to the ~6 abv of the original beer?

Mash temp? LHBS owner suggested 153.

How does this look?

 

[JoesInBoston]

153 should be fine.

I would cut all of the sugar and syrups in half. Even doing that you will have a high ABV at a 70% efficiency. The ABV for Theakstons is 5.6% and for St Botolphs is 5.9%. I think you will come out with a fine brew, regardless.

 

[CarbonTom]

Cool, that puts me at 7.45%. Should I do a starter as well?

When do I add the syrups? At mashout, or in the beginning or end of boil?

 

[eric19312]

Ive not had that beer but like the sound of it.

If you are trying to clone it I'd def cut the sugar and aim for PrettyThings 6% ABV. Sounds like you bought some pretty expensive sugars...I'd probably have included table sugar as one of the 4.

Yeast is probably WLP002 plus WLP029. With all the crystal and those yeasts which aren't super attenuative you might not need the maltodextrin.

I heard Ron Pattinson on Beersmith podcast recently talking about some historic british beers he has collaborated with Prettythings to make. His blog is http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/ and there might be good ideas there.

 

[eric19312]

When do I add the syrups? At mashout, or in the beginning or end of boil?

Add the sugars at the end of the boil to preserve their flavor contributions.

 

[JoesInBoston]

I would definitely make a starter with an OG that high. And yes, add the sugar with like 10-15 minutes to go in the boil.

 

[CarbonTom]

Alright chaps, I will be brewing this Saturday, and I have been unable to find black treacle locally. I am thinking about just using molasses. But I already have the Lyles golden syrup, which my research has shown me is technically treacle.

So should I just could that as the treacle and skip the molasses and use another type of sugar in its place? Or should the golden give me a much different taste than the dark would? Then should I use the golden, dark molasses, and the candi sugar syrup all together?

Going to make my first starter tonight! Fingers crossed!.

 

[JoesInBoston]

You can replace the black treacle with dark molasses. I think there are threads here on HBT discussing the interchangeability of treacle and molasses.

Can't wait to hear how this turns out.

 

[CarbonTom]

Awesome. Two last questions. Beer Smith is having me do a 90 min boil. I feel like it should be 60 no?

What the hell is mash rise time? The amount of time you need yo take to hit mash out with sparge water? I usually do 3 sparging steps which I can't do in 3 min. If I hit my mash out temp within the time limit can I then continue to sparge and let the heat drop back down as it probably will?

 

[14thstreet]

Don't worry about the mash rise time. The idea behind the elevated temperature mash out is to either improve lautering and/or to stop enzymatic action to set the fermentability limit of the wort. This has a greater effect on the commercial scale because it takes longer to get to boil (I think). A 90 minute boil may help with flavor or just needed to reach your final gravity - If you sparge more to collect more sugars you'll need to boil longer to reduce the added volume. You could probably boil 60 minutes and not notice a difference. You do what you can as long as you hit your gravity and volume targets, right?

But how does adding sugar at the end of the boil preserve it's flavor?

 

[JoesInBoston]

As 14thstreet said, don't worry about mash rise time.

90 minute boils are usually done when the malts being used are known for having high amounts of DMS. The extended boil helps to ensure more of the DMS is boiled off. I don't think your malts have high amounts, so if you calculate your sparge water correctly, you can get away with a 60 minute boil.

 

[CarbonTom]

Thanks for all the info.

It ended up going pretty well, I bumped up the molasses to 8 oz and did a full pound of the D-45 candi sugar, and am glad that I did, since I got an OG of 1.062. I really need to work on my mash efficiency, because jesus its pretty bad. It should have been 1.068 at 70%.... I didnt mash with enough water I think since when I came out there was still some grain at the top that wasn't submerged. I stirred it a couple times, but definitely missed out on some sugars.

Color looks spot on, and the wort tastes delicious. I had a Botolphs town whilst brewing and I noticed the foam on the wort while boiling was almost identical to the color of the head, idk how corelated that is but it made me happy haha.

As I used my first starter, I was nervous that I may have done it wrong, but I was very happy to wake up in the middle of the night to Krausen (I am very glad I used a blow off tube).

So thanks for all the help guys! I cant wait to see how it comes out, I will definitely post updates when it hits the keg!

 

[CarbonTom]

Ahoy chaps! Long time no see. I just did a gravity check and she's at 1.014-6 and still bubbling at the airlock. You can still see some visual yeast activity albeit much slower. The taste is delicious and very familiar! Same with the nose. That being said there is still a thick gelatinous yeast ...blob? At the top. Idk if that's still considered Krausen or not.

The target fg on beersmith is 1.015 so what do I do? Since there is still yeast activity do I cold crash? Will that get rid of the yeast blob? Or should I let it run its course? Will it continue to go down and end up too dry? I'm new to the concept of not letting the yeast finish when they are ready :-/

The below picture the top yeast layer is after passing a thick wine thief through it. And the last is all the yeast that came out into the small 4 oz glass after less than a minute of settling.

 

[eric19312]

Let the yeast finish.

If the beer ends up too dry adjust the recipe next time you brew by mashing a higher and or cutting back on the simple sugars.

With about 2 pounds of simple sugar in a 1.062 wort you are probably going to end up pretty dry.

 

[CarbonTom]

Cool, thanks for the advise.

 

[CarbonTom]

Kegging tonight!! Will report back with tasting notes!

 

[user 141939]

Looking to clone this recipe soon myself. How'd she turn out?
Anything you would change?

 

[CarbonTom]

Looking to clone this recipe soon myself. How'd she turn out?
Anything you would change?

It turned out great. I am still sitting on half a keg of it because I've been squandering it for colder weather. I would have dialed the molasses down a bit since it was a tad overpowering. Also I forgot to add the maltodextrin and I wish I hadn't (half in the bag at that point of the brew...as most of us usually are heh). Other than that, it is a great brew. I'm no recipe pro, but this one will stay in my lineup for sure.

 

[user 141939]

I didn't notice the Maltodextrine in your recipe. I don't have any of that. I suppose I could pick some up but LHBS will probably want like $500 for it or something. Maybe I'll just mash higher? At any rate my recipe came out a bit different than yours. But perhaps I'll try yours if this doesn't come out that good. I have...

9 lbs Marris Otter
10 oz Crystal 60
6 oz chocolate
6 oz flaked oats
6 oz torrified wheat
4 oz dark brown sugar
4 oz demerera sugar
4 oz molasses
2 oz fuggles (60 min)

I know they use Thomas Fawcett. I had a hell of a time finding a place that had all that I needed from them. I ended up at least getting the MO and crystal. Wish I could've got the malted oats.

I have Wyeast British Ale 2 which I'll probably use.

 

[CarbonTom]

I didn't notice the Maltodextrine in your recipe. I don't have any of that. I suppose I could pick some up but LHBS will probably want like $500 for it or something. Maybe I'll just mash higher? At any rate my recipe came out a bit different than yours. But perhaps I'll try yours if this doesn't come out that good. I have...

9 lbs Marris Otter
10 oz Crystal 60
6 oz chocolate
6 oz flaked oats
6 oz torrified wheat
4 oz dark brown sugar
4 oz demerera sugar
4 oz molasses
2 oz fuggles (60 min)

I know they use Thomas Fawcett. I had a hell of a time finding a place that had all that I needed from them. I ended up at least getting the MO and crystal. Wish I could've got the malted oats.

I have Wyeast British Ale 2 which I'll probably use.

I guess I never added the Maltodextrine since it was a last minute suggestion from my LHBS owner. Your recipe looks great. I had a fresh Botolphs bottle yesterday and had had my clone on Friday. The taste is definitely reminiscent and pretty close. I have the feeling that me going ham with the sugar on brew day caused me to miss the mark on being true to the recipe. I will definitely try this recipe again with the proper amounts. I expect you will have better results than I.

 

[user 141939]

I guess I never added the Maltodextrine since it was a last minute suggestion from my LHBS owner. Your recipe looks great. I had a fresh Botolphs bottle yesterday and had had my clone on Friday. The taste is definitely reminiscent and pretty close. I have the feeling that me going ham with the sugar on brew day caused me to miss the mark on being true to the recipe. I will definitely try this recipe again with the proper amounts. I expect you will have better results than I.

Well the maltodextrine makes sense to balance all the sugar additions. I actually have some carapils so maybe will use some of that. And I might exchange some or all of the chocolate for black malt. I feel like the original has black malt.

Gotta try to find a bottle of it to compare. I haven't seen one on the shelves in a while.

 

[CarbonTom]

Well the maltodextrine makes sense to balance all the sugar additions. I actually have some carapils so maybe will use some of that. And I might exchange some or all of the chocolate for black malt. I feel like the original has black malt.

Gotta try to find a bottle of it to compare. I haven't seen one on the shelves in a while.

That sounds like a more authentic grain choice as well. Let me know how it goes. As for availability, they released the newest batch of it last Tuesday. I've seen it on the shelves around Boston since Friday. It will probably hit further parts of their distribution area in the next week or so.

 

[CarbonTom]

edit: Deleted duplicate post.

 

[user 141939]

I found a recipe that is supposedly from the brewery here...

http://www.brews-bros.com/topic/68755-st-botolphs-brown-clone/

So I followed this pretty closely today. The percentages didn't add up to 100% so I increased the brown malt to one pound which made it around 7.7% of the grain bill.

I also for some reason had terrible efficiency (60%) so I boiled it down longer and added 4 oz molasses and 4 oz demerera sugar to hit my target OG. So I ended up with 1.061 OG and 41 IBU. The bitterness slightly higher than I wanted but the wort tasted great and didn't seem like it should be too bitter. I tried to mash thick and wonder if that was my problem with efficiency.

I got a starter of west Yorkshire yeast too add. I'm gonna cool wort to about 61-62, pitch and let rise to 64-65 to ferment. I also need to track down some bottles for a comparison when the beer is finished!

 

[CarbonTom]

I found a recipe that is supposedly from the brewery here...

http://www.brews-bros.com/topic/68755-st-botolphs-brown-clone/

So I followed this pretty closely today. The percentages didn't add up to 100% so I increased the brown malt to one pound which made it around 7.7% of the grain bill.

I also for some reason had terrible efficiency (60%) so I boiled it down longer and added 4 oz molasses and 4 oz demerera sugar to hit my target OG. So I ended up with 1.061 OG and 41 IBU. The bitterness slightly higher than I wanted but the wort tasted great and didn't seem like it should be too bitter. I tried to mash thick and wonder if that was my problem with efficiency.

I got a starter of west Yorkshire yeast too add. I'm gonna cool wort to about 61-62, pitch and let rise to 64-65 to ferment. I also need to track down some bottles for a comparison when the beer is finished!

Interesting that he got that from Dann but the only mentioned sugar is Treacle (the imported one). On PT website it says 4 types of sugars are used in the process to achieve the color and taste. At least Dann gives a good indication of the grist.

If I recall correctly when I mashed it was on the thinner side, but I think my efficiency was pretty low as well, I think I added too much sugar to compensate for it. But who knows. I need to reattempt this again, incorporating this new grist bill and the correct sugars.

 

[user 141939]

One thought I had was since the thread is a little old, maybe the way they started making it with just the one sugar and not four like it is now.

I have no idea what happened to my efficiency but I've only been that low before on huge barleywines and RIS and such. The only thing I changed was the thickness of the mash from 1.25 to 1.0.

Anyways I'll update once its's finished. I really need to get to the store and try to buy some. There's not a ton of stores up here that even have pretty things...

 

[CarbonTom]

One thought I had was since the thread is a little old, maybe the way they started making it with just the one sugar and not four like it is now.

I have no idea what happened to my efficiency but I've only been that low before on huge barleywines and RIS and such. The only thing I changed was the thickness of the mash from 1.25 to 1.0.

Anyways I'll update once its's finished. I really need to get to the store and try to buy some. There's not a ton of stores up here that even have pretty things...

As far as I know that's always the way its been. But PT has only been on my radar for a couple years or so, so who knows.

Where are you located? If you have issues finding I can prob send you some.

 

[user 141939]

Yeah no idea about the sugar. That thread I find was pretty short and not much info. I'm in Portland Maine and have been to all the stores and there is none of that to bad had. The guy at Bier Celler said he hasn't gotten anything special from them since fluffy white rabbits in the spring.

Are in you in Mass? What part? I ask because I am usually go down there to Chelmsford around the holidays so I could maybe meet you and make a trade for something here. I could try to get you some substance or somethng if you like IPAs.

Or I could just wait and maybe it will still be on the shelves down there when I go. I'm just kind of cheap to pay the shipping

 

[CarbonTom]

That's pretty amazing that you could get any PT I'm maine. I think their website says they distribute only to MA RI and NY. I live in Boston but work in concord so we def could meet up. I'll grab a couple bottles next chance I get. A holiday trade sounds good to me. I am a big fan of the Maine Beer co esp their ipas

 

[user 141939]

We most regularly have the saison and meadowlark. I got the fluffy white rabbits in the spring and had a couple of the lawnmower beers this summer. So they def come up. Yes please pick up a couple and I'll let you know when I come down. If it doesn't work out with our schedules we plan a shipment. Lots of MBC beers nowadays. They have expanded their lineup quite a bit lately.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[CarbonTom]

Sounds like a plan, I will grab a couple for you and we can figure out how to deal when the date approaches. I'm glad they are getting that far north, I am borderline PT fanboy, so it makes me happy to see their presence expand.