Recipe Feedback: Chocolate Oatwine

[AlexKay]

Hi, all. I'd certainly appreciate suggestions and other feedback on the following recipe for 2.5 gallons of chocolate oatwine:

4 lbs. malted oats
2 lbs.English pale malt
2 lbs. Munich
1 lbs. flaked oats
0.5 lb Crystal 77L
1.0 lb chocolate
0.5 lb chocolate rye

10 g Magnum (10.6% AA) @ 60 min.
10 g Talus (8.7% AA) @ 15 min.
10 g Talus (8.7% AA) @ 0 min.

22 g (two packages) Danstar Nottingham
Ferment @ 64 F

4 oz. cacao nibs (soaked in vodka, added to the fermenter at 1 week, continue with primary for at least another week)

I'm brewing this tomorrow or the next day from ingredients I have lying around the house, so if you have suggestions for other grains or hops, I might or might not have them available.

 

[3 Dawg Night]

That's interesting. I've never heard of an oatwine, chocolate or otherwise. Have you tasted one? How does the taste differ from a barleywine or wheatwine?

 

[Alan Reginato]

That's really interesting, but I would be worried about diastatic power in that recipe. Did you check it out? Maybe diastatic malt instead of pale malt.
I really don't know, just venting some ideas.

 

[AlexKay]

That's interesting. I've never heard of an oatwine, chocolate or otherwise. Have you tasted one? How does the taste differ from a barleywine or wheatwine?

I've never had one either. I modified a wheatwine recipe. I actually just bought the malted oats. The only thing I've used them so far was a hefe-oaten, which is still in the fermenter.

 

[AlexKay]

That's really interesting, but I would be worried about diastatic power in that recipe. Did you check it out? Maybe diastatic malt instead of pale malt.
I really don't know, just venting some ideas.

I should have worried about that. Some quick Googling suggests a DP of 25 might be reasonable for the oats. I could replace the English pale with regular 2-row, white wheat, or Pilsner, all of which should be 100+.

I'm inclined to go with wheat, from a recipe perspective. (I have some really good wheat malt.)

 

[Jayjay1976]

 

[Komodo]

Can you followup in this thread with your progress? I've also never heard of it and am really curious.

 

[AlexKay]

Can you followup in this thread with your progress? I've also never heard of it and am really curious.

Can do. Brew day is tomorrow. Will report back with numbers then and initial tasting notes in 3-4 weeks.

 

[BrewMan13]

I did an oatwine ages ago. It was fairly basic as I only used oat malt & flaked oats (I think). Just add some amylase enzyme to the mash aid in conversion (regular, not the gluco- kind that gets used in brut IPA's).

 

[skibb]

That's really interesting, but I would be worried about diastatic power in that recipe. Did you check it out? Maybe diastatic malt instead of pale malt.
I really don't know, just venting some ideas.

Not sure this is an issue - all the malts, which constitute 80% of the recipe, all have enough DP to convert themselves and then some.

My worry for this recipe: too bitter/roasty. Unless you're planning on this beer finishing in the 1.030s+ its going to drink more like a stout.

Chocolate Rye is an amazing malt, I would just use that exclusively over regular chocolate.

 

[AlexKay]

Decided on some changes. Final recipe:

4 lbs. malted oats
2 lbs. pale malt
2 lbs. Munich
1 lbs. flaked oats
0.5 lb Crystal 77L
0.5 lb chocolate
0.5 lb chocolate rye

10 g Magnum (10.6% AA) @ 60 min.
10 g Talus (8.7% AA) @ 15 min.
10 g Talus (8.7% AA) @ 0 min.

11 g Danstar Nottingham
Ferment @ 64 F

Gravity came in at 1.088. The wort tasted delicious: very rich, slightly roasty. Normally, all wort tastes about the same to me, but this was an exception. Will report back in a month or so when it's ready (if still young.)

 

[AlexKay]

I frickin’ love Nottingham. 24 hours and it's down to 1.070 already.

 

[AlexKay]

Checking back in, as promised. This one is a winner! Creamy mouthfeel, lots of roast and chocolate with some grain in the background, and very pleasantly alcoholic.

Next question: What do people think the best BJCP category is? 31A (Alternative Grain Beer); base style 17D (English Barleywine)? It doesn't feel chocolate-forward enough to go in as 30A (Spiced Beer). Is there such a thing as an Imperial Oatmeal Stout?

 

[Protos]

Found this thread searching for "Oatwine". After brewing a stellar 100% Wheat Wheatwine and a 100% Rye Roggenwein (can't judge yet how good it is, still fermenting), I'm thinking of adding to my Collection of GrainWines a 100% Oat Oatwine as well.
BIAB makes stuck sparge risk unimportant, and adding 10% of inverted sugar alleviates things even more (I didn't use Sugar in Wheatwine, used it instead in my Roggenwein for it to not come out too sticky, and succeeded).
I was thinking of a recipe of 70% Oat Malt as the base, 10% Crystal Oat (Simpsons GNO) for peanut flavour, 10% Flaked Oats for raw grainy note and 10% Inverted Sugar (along with stepped mashing regimen, starting low) for thinning the wort.
From your taste notes I see that adding some chocolate to an Oatwine might be a great idea! Probably, will make some Heavily Toasted Oat Malt myself and substitute it for a part (like 5%) of the base Oat Malt.

If I brewed your recipe for a competition, I'd enter it as a Barleywine, as Oat malt doesn't make the majority of the grist here to qualify as an Alternative Grain Beer, in my opinion which could be wrong.

 

[AlexKay]

Sounds interesting! I ended up entering mine as an imperial stout (I did add a fair amount of dark malt), but the competition messed up and judged it as an American stout. It did not go well. See this thread.

That said, I liked it well enough I just made it again, but this time I'm giving it a few months before even tasting it. The first batch definitely got better as it was running out.

Hats off to you for making a ryewine. I just made mine a few weeks back and it was a syrupy mess (even after fermentation; who cares about runoff with BIAB.)

Since you've got an all-oat grist, it's worth thinking about whether there are enough enzymes to convert. Also, if you're grinding yourself, it needs a minuscule roller gap.

Epiphany makes a triticale malt. Just sayin'.

 

[AlexKay]

If I brewed your recipe for a competition, I'd enter it as a Barleywine, as Oat malt doesn't make the majority of the grist here to qualify as an Alternative Grain Beer, in my opinion which could be wrong.

31A doesn't need a majority-alternative-grain grist. According to the category description, the grain needs to "enhance" and be "noticeable" at whatever level it is. I decided with my recipe that the oats weren't really noticeable enough (which may indeed be a sign to use more of them.)

 

[Protos]

Nice to hear you liked your recipe and you're making it again!
You are right for planning to give it a few months before tasting as Oats definitely need some aging, in my experience. I haven't brewed 100% Oat Oatwines yet, but I've brewed several Kuits, 7 to 9 ABV and 60 to 80% Naked Oat Malt. Never had any issues with conversion or Vorlauf but the beers came out barely drinkable (to my taste) before 6 months of age, because Oat Malt imparted some weird perfumy note, which I hated fresh. After a half-year aging the perfume transformed into a very pleasant flavour, reminding of pineapples. I expect it to be very pronounced in Oatwine, so plan to age it no less than 8 months.
Regarding 100% Rye, I fly-sparged my bag. Rye wort was definitely gummier than from wheat or oats, but nothing too extreme, and the thinning Sugar addition and low-starting step mash helped for sure as well. I don't think however it would have worked as smootly with a standard non-BIAB setup. I often brew Roggenbocks, my "House Version" of it has 75% Rye, maybe I just used to how Rye behaves in mash.

According to the category description, the grain needs to "enhance" and be "noticeable" at whatever level it is.

Oops, my bad. I knew, I'd be wrong I've never entered my beers to competitions.

Epiphany makes a triticale malt. Just sayin'.

Have to try it someday. I've used raw Spelt several times, particularly in Saisons, and still couldn't tell it apart from wheat. Probably, trying malted Triticale would make some difference.

 

[AlexKay]

My roggenbocks come in at around 60% rye. No trouble with draining (yay BIAB). But they're ~1.045 beers, and my gummy ryewine was 1.144.

The triticale did taste like wheat. I made a hefe-triticalen, though, and it was just fun to call it a "hefe-triticalen." I've made "hefe-oaten" too.

 

[Protos]

1.144

Wow! Mine was far lighter, at 1.088. At 1.144, that must be some mighty chewy drink! I have ever had such an enormous gravity just once, with a Samichlaus clone.

 

[AlexKay]

It fermented down to 1.036. Tasted delicious right out of the fermenter, but again, I’m going to leave it alone for at least a few months.