Recipe Critique: Bloody Murder IPA

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drgonzo2k2

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Hey gang, inspired by some of the IPAs out there that use blood oranges in them, I wanted to try my hand at one without necessarily trying to clone one of the commercial ones already out there. After looking at some of the existing clone attempts to see where they started, here's what I wound up with.

I would appreciate any comments or feedback you might have! :mug:

Title: Bloody Murder IPA

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Imperial IPA
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 6 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 8.4 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.055
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.077
Final Gravity: 1.015
ABV (standard): 8.19%
IBU (tinseth): 65
SRM (morey): 9.41

FERMENTABLES:
13 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (76.5%)
2.5 lb - German - CaraRed (14.7%)
1 lb - Flaked Wheat (5.9%)
0.5 lb - Canadian - Honey Malt (2.9%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Warrior, Type: Leaf/Whole, AA: 16, Use: First Wort, IBU: 26.62
0.5 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 9.75
0.5 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 15 min, IBU: 8.25
0.5 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 7.12
0.5 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 10 min, IBU: 6.03
0.5 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 3.92
0.5 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 5 min, IBU: 3.31
0.5 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Aroma for 0 min
0.5 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Aroma for 0 min
1 oz - Citra, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
1 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 25 qt, Single Infusion @ 150
2) Sparge, Temp: 168 F, Time: 15 min, Vorlauf, Batch Sparge (volume depends on first runnings)
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Whirlfloc, Time: 10 min, Type: Fining, Use: Boil
2 oz - Blood Orange Zest (Flame Out), Time: 0 min, Type: Spice, Use: Boil
2 oz - Blood Orange Zest (Dry Hop), Type: Spice, Use: Primary
6 lb - Blood Orange, Type: Flavor, Use: Primary

YEAST:
The Yeast Bay - Vermont Ale
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 78.5%
Flocculation: Med/Low
Optimum Temp: 64 - 72 F
Fermentation Temp: 66 F
Pitch Rate: 0.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Light colored and hoppy
Ca2: 75
Mg2: 5
Na: 10
Cl: 50
SO4: 150
HCO3: 0
Water Notes:

NOTES:
Begin by zesting, peeling, and chopping 6 lbs of blood oranges prior to brew day.

Reserve zest, but freeze orange chunks for at least 24 hours, and then set out to thaw to room temp on brew day.

Brew as normal, and add 2 oz of blood orange zest at flame out.

Add thawed blood orange chunks to primary fermenter prior to draining kettle.

Ferment as follows:

Day 1 - 66
Day 2 - 68
Day 3 - 70
Day 4 - 72

Then hold @ 72 for another 10 days (14 days primary fermentation)

Then dry hop @ 65 degrees for 5 days, and use another 2 oz of blood orange zest during dry hop.

Then cold crash @ 35 degrees for 3 days prior to bottling.

This recipe has been published online at:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/241498/bloody-murder-ipa
 

bobbrews

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Notes:

CaraRed is a Caramel malt, first and foremost. Don't be fooled by the name; it is typically 20 Lovibond and will not contribute much in the way of red color. The flavor is toasty, rich, sweet, and full of caramel... It will also add fuller body, which are all things that are unnecessary for a crisp, easy-drinking IPA. Combine this with the honey malt, and you will have a cloying, thick mess of an IPA. If you want a red hue with no flavor or body contribution, use something like 1% black malt (although the blood orange juice should provide more than enough color).

Galaxy has some tangerine notes, but Citra is pure mango and lychee fruit. Galaxy & Citra will offer more tropical notes than anything. For a blood orange IPA, there are other/better hops reminiscent of tangerine and citrus. You can keep the Galaxy, but if you don't want to be overwhelmed by tropical fruit then swap the Citra for Cascade or Amarillo. A small amount of Summit or Comet can be used as well if you desire.

Alterations:

Original Gravity: 1.071-75 (for this style, lower OG and lower FG, within reason, are better than higher OG and higher FG)
Final Gravity: 1.008-1.012 (the drier the better)
IBUs: Insignificant for a double IPA. Blast it with hops! You will not surpass 90-100 lab-tested IBUs anyway.
Boil Length: 90 Minutes

American - Pale 2-Row (85%)
German - CaraRed (5%)
Flaked Wheat (5%)
Corn Sugar (5%)

2.00 oz - Warrior, Added to Full Rolling Boil at the 60 min mark (not FWHd)
2.00 oz - Cascade, 180F Hopstand for 30 minutes
2.00 oz - Galaxy, 180F Hopstand for 30 minutes
3.00 oz - Cascade, Dry Hop for 5 days
2.00 oz - Galaxy, Dry Hop for 5 days
1.00 oz - Summit or Comet, Dry Hop for 5 days

7-10 Blood Oranges - Zest, no Pith - Use: Secondary, with Dryhop
7-10 Blood Oranges - Segments, no Pith - Use: Secondary, with Dryhop
10-14 Blood Oranges - Juiced, Use: Keg or Bottles (remember to account for residual sugars in juice)

Wyeast San Diego Super or Wyeast 1272 Starter (Conan/Vermont Ale yeast peachiness not as suitable for a blood orange IPA)
Optimum Temp: 62 - 65 F

Sulfate level boosted to 350 ppm
 
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drgonzo2k2

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Hey @bobbrews, thanks for your feedback. I'll definitely be making some changes to the recipe and post it back here when I do.

Before that though, a couple of comments/questions...

Regarding the CaraRed, thanks for that. I've learned that it's essentially a Crystal/Caramel 20 with a slightly more red hue, which is why I wanted to try it in this beer. I've used it in a couple of other brews with good results, but not in an IPA, nor at this much of the grain bill. I suppose you are correct though, and in hindsight dedicating about 18% of the grain bill here to specialty malts like C20 and honey malt is not a good idea.

Regarding the hops, I've actually always found both Citra and Galaxy to have a lot of citrus aroma (not that I'm saying your choices don't also exhibit that characteristic), which was the reason I included them here. I've yet to use Summit or Comet in a beer, but looking into them they both do sound wonderful, so I'm undecided what to do here currently. I'll definitely think about this a bit more. I think I'll switch the bittering hop to the 60 minute mark instead of FWH, but I'll keep the rest of the additions as hop bursts a I haven't tried hop stands yet, and in general shy away from things that add extra time to the brew session. I'll probably also try to keep the IBUs on the lower end for a DIPA, as I wasn't going for a west coast hop bomb with this one.

Thanks again, and I hope to get more feedback on my revision when I post it!
 

yeknom366

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Like bobbrews said, you probably won't get the blood orange flavor. However, I made a nearly identical beer about year ago and it turned out fantastic. The hop schedule was exactly the same except I didn't use any bittering hops. The malt bill was:

15lb Maris Otter
1lb honey malt
1lb wheat

I used SO-4 for it though, but an ipa I made a month ago that was also fantastic used harvested Conan. You can't really go wrong with the galaxy/citra combo.
 

m00ps

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Conan + citra + galaxy will be great IMO.

But I agree to ditch the carared altogether. I never use for than like 4oz of any crystal malts in my IPAs. Plus you've got the blood orange that can add some extra sweetness too. I think the way it is, you'll end up a very cloying beer.

I'd also add some cane sugar, maybe in place of the carared. I usually do 5-10% simple sugar in my IPAs to get a nice lean body and let the hops shine through. I've also seen many professional brewers (Stone, Russian River come to mind) recommend this.

If you really want a red IPA, try Red X malt (got mine at farmhosue brewing supply) its a base malt that can be used up to 100% specifically designed for red beers.

last thing, be sure to do a hopstand. Its an absolute must for any IPA that you want a huge hop character (unless you just want to waste money on a bunch of extra hops). I usually do 8oz or so added after flameout and let them sit for a while. Gives a tiny bit of bitterness but an amazing hop aroma. I just tried my lastest IPA on tap yesterday (using this technique) and it has a juicer hop flavor than any commercial IPA i've had (though this is probably because I'm able to drink it before its even a month old). But the hopstand gives it very little bitterness so you can drink it like a session beer. What's a measly 30min of your time compared to the satisfaction of seeing peoples faces as they try your hopstanded masterpiece?
 
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drgonzo2k2

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@yeknom366, @m00ps, thanks for the feedback guys! I'm currently re-working my recipe, and I actually moved away from the citra/galaxy/conan combo based on @bobbrews's feedback, but now that you've chimed in, I'm not sure which way I'll end up going.

If you think galaxy/conan would be an awesome combo, you might want to check out this recipe I posted that I'm bottling this weekend, so far it is coming along awesome:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=522779
 

bobbrews

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Conan is an excellent choice fo an IIPA, don't get me wrong. It works wonderfully in Heady Topper type IIPAs. However, in this recipe, you'll likely be left with something EXTREMELY fruity (on the border of tropical fruit juice) if you brew a double IPA with a load of Citra/Galaxy, combined with Conan... especially finishing at 1.015 FG or higher; and even moreso if adding actual "fruit" to the mix.

I have brewed IPAs like this before and they are good, but you end up getting that one note... a fruit bomb with no complexity. Additionally, there are sooooo many fruity, sweet, caramelly IPAs on the market, which makes them very commonplace. It's tough to find a crisp, highly drinkable yet complex, dry, well-executed piney, resiny, citrusy, or floral IPA. A handful of breweries do them well (out of literally hundreds).
 
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drgonzo2k2

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Yep, @bobbrews, I think you are totally right. Conan is an excellent IPA yeast, but it just isn't needed in this recipe. I definitely think Version 1 had enough going on between the malt bill, hop bill, and fruit additions, that adding Conan on top of that was just too much. I've gone ahead and switched to WLP090 (SD Super Yeast), which I've used before and like quite a bit, so I think it'll do the trick here.

I am trying to go for a crisp, lean bodied IPA that lets the citrus notes (both of the actual citrus and the hops) really shine through. As far as color goes, I'm afraid if I don't do something with the malt bill to redden it up a bit, I'm going to wind up with something more pink due to the blood orange addition, which is why I'm planning on adding some CaraRed, but definitely way less than I started with, and I might check out the Red X malt that @m00ps mentions as well. I figure that and just a pinch of black malt or roasted barley should get me what I'm looking for. I'll augment with corn sugar or cane sugar to get a leaner body.

As far as hops go, I've ditched the Citra altogether (I've got enough other recipes that use them anyway), and as of now am looking at Warrior/Comet for my bittering charge, Cascade & Summit for all of my late editions, and some combination of Cascade, Galaxy, Comet, & Summit as my flame out hops (which I think on the advice here I will give my hand at turning into a hop stand), and finally some combo of Summit, Amarillo, Cascade, & Galaxy for dry hopping.

I'll see if I can't get my finishing touches done on revision 2 during my commute home this evening and post it back here.
 
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drgonzo2k2

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Alright guys, as promised, here is V2 of the recipe. Let me know how far I've now taken this in the other direction!

Title: Bloody Murder IPA

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Imperial IPA
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 6 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 8.4 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.056
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.079
Final Gravity: 1.014
ABV (standard): 8.42%
IBU (tinseth): 93.43
SRM (morey): 10.5

FERMENTABLES:
14 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (84.3%)
0.8 lb - German - CaraRed (4.8%)
0.8 lb - Flaked Wheat (4.8%)
0.2 lb - American - Roasted Barley (1.2%)
0.8 lb - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (4.8%)

HOPS:
0.45 oz - Comet, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 14.85
0.35 oz - Warrior, Type: Pellet, AA: 16, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 16.79
1 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 200 °F, IBU: 8.74
1 oz - Comet, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 200 °F, IBU: 13.73
1 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 200 °F, IBU: 16.23
1 oz - Summit, Type: Pellet, AA: 18.5, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 200 °F, IBU: 23.09
2 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
2 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
1 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 24 qt, Single Infusion @ 150
2) Sparge, Temp: 168 F, Time: 15 min, Vorlauf, Batch Sparge (volume depends on first runnings)
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Whirlfloc, Time: 10 min, Type: Fining, Use: Boil
2 oz - Blood Orange Zest (Flame Out), Time: 0 min, Type: Spice, Use: Boil
2 oz - Blood Orange Zest (Dry Hop), Type: Spice, Use: Primary
6 lb - Blood Orange Chunks, Type: Flavor, Use: Primary

YEAST:
White Labs - San Diego Super Yeast WLP090
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 79.5%
Flocculation: Med-High
Optimum Temp: 65 - 68 F
Fermentation Temp: 65 F
Pitch Rate: 0.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)

PRIMING:
Method: Bllod Orange Juice
Amount: 1.2 L
CO2 Level: 2.2 Volumes

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Light colored and hoppy
Ca2: 75
Mg2: 5
Na: 10
Cl: 50
SO4: 150
HCO3: 0
Water Notes:

NOTES:
Begin by zesting and peeling 6 lbs of blood oranges prior to brew day. You want to eliminate as much of the pith as possible as it is quite bitter.

Dry zest in 170 degree oven for about 4 hours or until completely dry. Grind up the dried zest and divide equally by weight into 2 containers.

Freeze orange chunks for at least 24 hours, and then set out to thaw to room temp on brew day.

Brew as normal, and add 1/2 of your blood orange zest at flame out along with your whirlpool hops.

Whirlpool for 1 minute and then allow kettle to sit for 30 minutes prior to chilling down to pitching temperature.

Add thawed blood orange chunks to primary fermenter prior to draining kettle.

Ferment @ 65 degrees for 14 days and then take gravity readings.

Dry hop @ 65 degrees for 5 days, and use the other 1/2 of your blood orange zest during dry hop.

Cold crash @ 35 degrees for 3 days prior to bottling.

Prime with 1.2L of blood orange juice (assuming 22g of fructose/8 oz of juice) to achieve 2.2 vols of CO2.

This recipe has been published online at:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/241498/bloody-murder-ipa
 
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drgonzo2k2

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Well, after reading the "how long and at what temp" hopstand thread on here and seeing all of @bobbrews's post in that, I'm pretty sure he's going to come along and tell me I better get that hopstand temp down under 180 or else. ;)
 

m00ps

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Personally, I like to do my hopstands in 2 steps, flameout addition then ~180 addition. I divide the hopstand hops into whatever smells best or which hop(s) I want to have more flavor of. The best smelling ones get the 180F and dry hop treatment
 

hanuswalrus

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I think it looks pretty good. I would do a FWH for my bittering hops, though. And probably wouldn't do any Roasted Barley. Personally, I wouldn't mind the color the blood oranges will give.

I've only done a couple hop stands so far, but have had good success chilling the wort to ~185 and then adding the hopstand hops, letting them steep for about 20-30 minutes, then finish the chilling of the wort.
 
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drgonzo2k2

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Thanks for the feedback guys! Really appreciate it! Just curious, how do you guys figure your utilization when you do a hopstand that doesn't start at flame out? From the BYO article I understood the assume 10% utilization to be for hopstands that initiate above 200, but maybe I read that wrong.
 

bobbrews

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Thanks for the feedback guys! Really appreciate it! Just curious, how do you guys figure your utilization when you do a hopstand that doesn't start at flame out? From the BYO article I understood the assume 10% utilization to be for hopstands that initiate above 200, but maybe I read that wrong.
You're barely getting any additional alpha acids at 175-180F. This is the point at which isomerization grinds to a halt.

If you want some isomerization along with some flavor/aroma contributions then employ a direct flameout addition as well as a separate 160 F hopstand addition.
 
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Hey everyone, thanks so much again for all your feedback/help in this thread. I greatly appreciate it, especially on the hop stand stuff as I've never employed that technique before. So, taking into account the most recent feedback, here is Version 3! Please let me know your thoughts!

HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Bloody Murder IPA

Brew Method: All Grain
Style Name: Imperial IPA
Boil Time: 90 min
Batch Size: 6 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 8.4 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.056
Efficiency: 75% (brew house)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.079
Final Gravity: 1.014
ABV (standard): 8.42%
IBU (tinseth): 67.33
SRM (morey): 10.5

FERMENTABLES:
14 lb - American - Pale 2-Row (84.3%)
0.8 lb - Corn Sugar - Dextrose (4.8%)
0.8 lb - Flaked Wheat (4.8%)
0.8 lb - German - CaraRed (4.8%)
0.2 lb - American - Roasted Barley (1.2%)

HOPS:
0.45 oz - Comet, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 14.85
0.45 oz - Warrior, Type: Pellet, AA: 16, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 21.59

0.5 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 200 °F, IBU: 4.37
0.5 oz - Comet, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 200 °F, IBU: 6.87
0.5 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 200 °F, IBU: 8.11
0.5 oz - Summit, Type: Pellet, AA: 18.5, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 200 °F, IBU: 11.55

0.5 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 160 °F
0.5 oz - Comet, Type: Pellet, AA: 11, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 160 °F
0.5 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 160 °F
0.5 oz - Summit, Type: Pellet, AA: 18.5, Use: Whirlpool for 30 min at 160 °F

2 oz - Amarillo, Type: Pellet, AA: 8.6, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
2 oz - Cascade, Type: Pellet, AA: 7, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days
1 oz - Galaxy, Type: Pellet, AA: 13, Use: Dry Hop for 5 days

MASH GUIDELINES:
1) Infusion, Temp: 150 F, Time: 60 min, Amount: 24 qt, Single Infusion @ 150
2) Sparge, Temp: 168 F, Time: 15 min, Vorlauf, Batch Sparge (volume depends on first runnings)
Starting Mash Thickness: 1.5 qt/lb

OTHER INGREDIENTS:
1 each - Whirlfloc, Time: 10 min, Type: Fining, Use: Boil
0.5 each - Blood Orange Zest (Flame Out), Time: 0 min, Type: Spice, Use: Boil
0.5 each - Blood Orange Zest (Dry Hop), Type: Spice, Use: Primary
6 lb - Blood Orange Chunks, Type: Flavor, Use: Primary

YEAST:
White Labs - San Diego Super Yeast WLP090
Starter: Yes
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 79.5%
Flocculation: Med-High
Optimum Temp: 65 - 68 F
Fermentation Temp: 65 F
Pitch Rate: 0.75 (M cells / ml / deg P)

PRIMING:
Method: Blood Orange Juice
Amount: 1.2 L
CO2 Level: 2.2 Volumes

TARGET WATER PROFILE:
Profile Name: Light colored and hoppy
Ca2: 75
Mg2: 5
Na: 10
Cl: 50
SO4: 150
HCO3: 0
Water Notes:

NOTES:
Begin by zesting and peeling 6 lbs of blood oranges prior to brew day. You want to eliminate as much of the pith as possible as it is quite bitter.

Dry zest in 170 degree oven for about 4 hours or until completely dry. Grind up the dried zest and divide equally by weight into 2 containers.

Freeze orange chunks for at least 24 hours, and then set out to thaw to room temp on brew day.

Brew as normal, and add 1/2 of your blood orange zest at flame out along with your whirlpool hops.

Whirlpool for 1 minute and then allow kettle to sit for 30 minutes prior to chilling down to 160.

Add 2nd whirlpool addition, whirlpool for 1 minute, then allow kettle to sit for 30 minutes prior to chilling down to pitching temp.

Add thawed blood orange chunks to primary fermenter prior to draining kettle.

Ferment @ 65 degrees for 14 days and then take gravity readings.

Dry hop @ 65 degrees for 5 days, and use the other 1/2 of your blood orange zest during dry hop.

Cold crash @ 35 degrees for 3 days prior to bottling.

Prime with 1.2L of blood orange juice (assuming 22g of fructose/8 oz of juice) to achieve 2.2 vols of CO2.

This recipe has been published online at:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/241498/bloody-murder-ipa
 

hanuswalrus

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You seem to have your mind set on the grain bill... The whirlpool looks good to me.

The only thing I would suggest is to split up the dry hop into 2 separate additions. 1 oz Cascade 1 oz Amarillo and .5 oz Galaxy for each 5-day addition. Discard the 1st addition when you throw in the second as dry hops start to add grassy flavors/aromas after 5-7 days (in my experience at least. lots of people leave them in for 10 days or more and don't get the grassiness)
 

m00ps

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I've never got grassiness. I accidently dry hopped a beer in a keg for 4 months one time and it turned out great
 
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