Recipe conversion advice

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BoitAHL

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Hello all,

Wondering if I could get some advice/opinions on converting the following Firestone Walker Parabola Clone recipe I found on BeerSmith. Here's the recipe.

Parabola Clone

All Grain Recipe

Submitted By: GB2K (Shared)
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Batch Size: 12.00 galStyle: Imperial Stout (13F)
Boil Size: 13.00 galStyle Guide: BJCP 2008
Color: 47.3 SRMEquipment: Tippy
Bitterness: 81.3 IBUsBoil Time: 60 min
Est OG: 1.110 (25.9° P)Mash Profile: Single Infusion, Light Body, No Mash Out
Est FG: 1.019 SG (4.9° P)Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage
ABV: 12.1%Taste Rating: 30.0


Ingredients​
Amount
Name
Type
#
32 lbsPale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)Grain1
8 lbsMunich Malt (9.0 SRM)Grain2
2 lbsCarafa I (337.0 SRM)Grain3
2 lbsRoasted Barley (300.0 SRM)Grain4
1 lbsCaramel/Crystal Malt - 15L (15.0 SRM)Grain5
1 lbsCaramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM)Grain6
1 lbsChocolate Malt (350.0 SRM)Grain7
1 lbsOats, Flaked (1.0 SRM)Grain8
5.00 ozColumbus (Tomahawk) [14.0%] - Boil 60 minHops9
5.00 ozHallertauer [4.8%] - Boil 30 minHops10
2.00Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15 min)Misc11
1.0 pkgsCalifornia Ale (White Labs #WLP001)Yeast12
1.00 lbsOak Chips (Secondary 7 days)Misc13
12.00 ozBourbon (Secondary 2 weeks)Misc14
12.00 ozBourbon - 2 (Bottling 0 min)Misc15

First, I would like to convert this from 12 gallon to a 5 gallon recipe. Found this volume conversion formula on homebrewanswers.com.

Ingredient Amount/Original Volume*Intended Volume

So going by this formula I end up with the following ingredient changes. Does this make sense?

32 - 13.3lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter
8 - 3.3lbs Munich Malt
2 - .83lbs Carafa I
2 - .83lbs Roasted Barley
1 - .42lbs Caramel/Crystal 15L
1 - .42lbs Caramel Crystal 120L
1 - .42lbs Chocolate Malt
1 - .42lbs Flaked Oats
5 - 2oz Columbus (Tomahawk) Hops
5 - 2oz Hallertauer Hops
1 tablet Whirlfloc
5 – 2oz Oak Chips
12 – 5oz Bourbon

Second, since i am an Extract brewer I would like to convert this to an Extract (with specialty grains) recipe. My understanding is you convert/replace only the base malts which I believe in this recipe are the Maris Otter and Munich malts. However, I have seen in the past some converted recipes that do keep small amounts of the base malts for steeping. So what would your advice be regarding the AllGrain to Extract conversion of this recipe.

Thanks so much for your help.

Steve
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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Do you have a source for Maris Otter and Munich DME/LME? What do you know about the composition and fermentability of each? (For example: Briess Munich LME is 50% Munich with a fermentability of 75% (link))

OG 110, FG 19 appears to be 82% attenuation (see BeerSmith 'light body' mash profile (link)). If the DME/LME being used is only 75% fermentable, sugar could be substituted to maintain OG and lower FG.

Flaked Oats need to be mashed to convert starches into sugars. The other specialty malts can be steeped. Be careful with the "1 lb base malt for each 1 lb of specialty malt" for partial mashing. That guideline seems to assume a base malt with a DP of at least 100. Maris Otter and Munich Light (SRM 9) will have enough DP to self-convert, but may not have enough additional DP to help convert other malts.

Product information sheets for the specific malts and extracts used will be helpful if the goal is a really close conversion.

Or one could get kinda/maybe close with a combination of Pale Ale and Munich DME/LME, a sugar substitution to get close with FG, and a steep of the specialty malts.
 
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BoitAHL

BoitAHL

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Do you have a source for Maris Otter and Munich DME/LME? What do you know about the composition and fermentability of each? (For example: Briess Munich LME is 50% Munich with a fermentability of 75% (link))

No specific source yet but have seen them available through Google searching. I know close to nothing about composition and fermentability. However, your example makes sense when I look up and see the LME/DME versions are not 100% (1-1) of the specific malts.

OG 110, FG 19 appears to be 82% attenuation (see BeerSmith 'light body' mash profile (link)). If the DME/LME being used is only 75% fermentable, sugar could be substituted to maintain OG and lower FG.

Flaked Oats need to be mashed to convert starches into sugars. The other specialty malts can be steeped. Be careful with the "1 lb base malt for each 1 lb of specialty malt" for partial mashing. That guideline seems to assume a base malt with a DP of at least 100. Maris Otter and Munich Light (SRM 9) will have enough DP to self-convert, but may not have enough additional DP to help convert other malts.

Sorry but this all pretty much goes right over my head as I would have no idea how to tweak this recipe with sugar to use for maintaining OG and lowering FG, mash the Flakes Oats correctly (or eliminate them), or what DP is and malts helping convert other malts. As far as mashing would rinsing the Oats/Malt/Grains in hot water after steeping simulate mashing (to a point)? I have seen some extract recipes which include this step.

With my limited knowledge maybe this recipe is just to complex to be converted easily to Extract?

Thanks for your advice and info BrewnWKopperKat.
 
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BoitAHL

BoitAHL

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If you are interested, I can put together a "kinda/maybe" close recipe (Pale Ale and Munich DME/LME, ...) this evening.

BrewnWKopperKat,

Sure, if you have the time that would be very much appreciated. No rush. Your "kinda/maybe close recipe" would be a lot better than anything I could come up with at this point.

Thanks again.
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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With a 5 gallon batch, here's one idea for the 'grain bill':

1646951379681.png


Notes
  • I substituted Golden Naked Oats for flaked oats
  • I assumed 75% attenuation (due to fermentability of the LME)
  • I used the BrewersFriend assumption of 70% efficiency for steeping grains
    • at 35% efficiency for steeping grains: OG is 1.102 & ABV 10.7%
  • MoreBeer currently offers LME in 4, 5, 6, ... pound containers
  • "Golden Light" (or Pilsen / extra light) LME could be used in place of "Pale Ale" LME.
As I was working with the recipe, there were variations that worked with 3.3lb containers of LME, but they generally required a 5.5 or 6.0 gallon batch size.
 

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BrewnWKopperKat

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Or use comparable varieties of DME instead of LME, if you can obtain them (easier)
There is a "Pale Ale" DME. In 2022, I'm not aware of a Munich DME.

With 'extract + grains' recipes, I dislike the idea of partial containers of LME. There are a couple of places that offer LME in 1 lb containers. 3.3 lbs is also a common size. With 3.3 lb containers, it looked a 6 gal receipt would work (it would also have specialty malts with 1 lb and 0.5 lb increments).
 

IslandLizard

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There is a "Pale Ale" DME. In 2022, I'm not aware of a Munich DME.
My LHBS used to have Munich DME (Carlsson/Briess, IIRC) among a few other dry extract outliers (Wheat (65%), even 100% Maris Otter).
2022... I just checked, now they don't have any DME, not even the most common ones.

I dislike the idea of partial containers of LME
Same here.
However, they can be stored and kept for a few weeks, several months even, closely covered and well sealed in the fridge or freezer.

And thanks for converting the recipe, that took some insight and knowledge, as well as time. :rock:
 
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BoitAHL

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With a 5 gallon batch, here's one idea for the 'grain bill':

BrewnWKopperKat,

Wow! That looks great. Your time and effort is very much appreciated but of course I have a few questions.

You have Pale Ale LME listed. Are you recommending that above any Maris Otter LME/DME I can find?

As far as steeping would 30 minutes at 160° then sparge with about a gallon of 160° water sound reasonable?

Assuming I would do a full boil start at about 5.5 gallons?

Do the hop amounts of 2oz Columbus and 2oz Hallertauer and the times to add work for this recipe?

Thanks again.
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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@BoitAHL : answers / discussion on your questions. If you have more questions, please ask.

You have Pale Ale LME listed. Are you recommending that above any Maris Otter LME/DME I can find?
If you have a source for Maris Otter LME, use it. I picked Pale Ale LME as it would be 'closer' to Maris Otter than other LMEs.

If your Maris Otter and Munich LME containers don't match what's in the recipe, let me know. I saved the partial recipe in Brewers Friend, so changes are pretty quick. Also, if you have a Brewers Friend account, I can make the partial recipe available to you.

As far as steeping would 30 minutes at 160° then sparge with about a gallon of 160° water sound reasonable?
The approach is reasonable.

Assuming I would do a full boil start at about 5.5 gallons?
If you know your boil off rate, start with that. Otherwise, 5.5 gal with a top up to 5 gal going into the fermenter would work.

Do the hop amounts of 2oz Columbus and 2oz Hallertauer and the times to add work for this recipe?
Yes.
 
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BoitAHL

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I do have a couple more. :)

Add extract before boil, right after first boil (of course taking off burner), or split times?

When should I add the Sugar Cane?

Thanks.
 

BrewnWKopperKat

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Add extract before boil, right after first boil (of course taking off burner), or split times?

When should I add the Sugar Cane?
You can add the extract and sugar after removing/sparging the steeping grains. The heat source is off and the water/wort is warm (140F - 150F), so the extract & sugar will dissolve without concerns about scorching. The trade-off is that wort heats slightly slower than water.
 

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With a 5 gallon batch, here's one idea for the 'grain bill':

View attachment 762272

Notes
  • I substituted Golden Naked Oats for flaked oats
  • I assumed 75% attenuation (due to fermentability of the LME)
  • I used the BrewersFriend assumption of 70% efficiency for steeping grains
    • at 35% efficiency for steeping grains: OG is 1.102 & ABV 10.7%
  • MoreBeer currently offers LME in 4, 5, 6, ... pound containers
  • "Golden Light" (or Pilsen / extra light) LME could be used in place of "Pale Ale" LME.
As I was working with the recipe, there were variations that worked with 3.3lb containers of LME, but they generally required a 5.5 or 6.0 gallon batch size.
This is one of the issues I have with scaling recipes - and its a bigger issue for me because I’m usually trying to scale things to a 3 gallon size: Who is measuring out and using .42 pounds or 6.72 ounces exactly of crystal malt? Seriously. Don’t we just make that 6.5 ounces at least? And then increase something else to 7 ounces to make the difference.

It gets even worse with hops at my level when additions for a 3 gallon batch get scaled to .187 ounces or something bizzarre like that. I guess I am just a fan of round numbers.
 
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BoitAHL

BoitAHL

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Let's go back to the original 12 gal recipe, scale it to 6 gal, then convert it to LME.
Hmmmm....... Sure looks nice all rounded out. I think that's doable. :ban:

Only issue is our Gas Cooktop has a tough time getting 6.5 to 7 gallons of wort boiling. May need to wait til weather is nice enough to brew this outside on the burner.
 

IslandLizard

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Only issue is our Gas Cooktop has a tough time getting 6.5 to 7 gallons of wort boiling.
Since you're brewing extract, you can easily do a partial boil. It's actually better, and recommended. Boil only half the volume using only 1/4 to 1/2 of the extract.
Then at flameout add the remainder of the extract, stirring well to dissolve all of it.
Chill and transfer to your fermenter. Top up with cold water to the intended volume. Aerate (or better, oxygenate) well and pitch yeast.

Speaking of yeast...
The original recipe you posted is "foggy" on the amount of yeast.
Regardless, you'd need to pitch 2 pouches of US-05 in your 5 gallon (high gravity) batch.

Since it's a high gravity beer, 12 hours after pitching the yeast, aerate (oxygenate) again, thoroughly.
 
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Then at flameout add the remainder of the extract, stirring well to dissolve all of it.
Chill and transfer to your fermenter. Top up with cold water to the intended volume. Aerate (or better, oxygenate) well and pitch yeast.
I agree with all of that but instead of chilling and topping off, I’d Top off with chilled water then transfer.
 
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BoitAHL

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Gil and Island,

Appreciate the advice. I'll work on posting the final recipe with steps and procedures then work on purchasing the ingredients.

If I need to split the primary fermentation anyway, can I split it 50% into each of the two fermenters? Use one US-05 in each? This actually worked perfectly for a Black Forest Cake Stout Clone I recently brewed.
 

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I agree with all of that but instead of chilling and topping off, I’d Top off with chilled water then transfer.
Yes, that's a very good point, I didn't think of that.

It's indeed very good practice to top up a boil kettle before transferring, stirring/mixing well while doing so to homogenize it. It dilutes the super high gravity to a more modest one, so the hit on efficiency is reduced when there's any wort left behind.

can I split it 50% into each of the two fermenters?
Make sure that the wort is mixed well before transferring. It's quite amazing how wort stays stratified when adding water.
 

BongoYodeler

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Gil and Island,

Appreciate the advice. I'll work on posting the final recipe with steps and procedures then work on purchasing the ingredients.

If I need to split the primary fermentation anyway, can I split it 50% into each of the two fermenters? Use one US-05 in each? This actually worked perfectly for a Black Forest Cake Stout Clone I recently brewed.
Good luck with this. I'm interested in how it turns out. FW is just up the road from me so I go there often. The beers from their barrel program are my absolute favorite. They'll often have several different years of Parabola, or others, on tap so you can do a vertical comparison. I know they're also VERY particular about where they source their barrels from. IMO, and as mentioned above, don't expect to duplicate the exquisite barrel characteristic they produce, that would likely prove too lofty a goal. You can still brew something delicious though. I look forward to future updates.
 
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BoitAHL

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The beers from their barrel program are my absolute favorite.

I have had several different FW beers over the years getting them mostly from Tavour. 25th Anniversary Vintage Ale 2021 and Parabola Autumn Edition 2021 in my crate right now. Enjoyed them all but Parabola is my favorite.

don't expect to duplicate the exquisite barrel characteristic they produce, that would likely prove too lofty a goal

That's for sure. I'm not expecting anything really close but like you said hopefully delicious.
 
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BoitAHL

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All,

Here is the final recipe with instructions added. Please let me know if something is wrong or missing and I will edit the post. I'm really looking forward to brewing this.
Again, thanks for all your help.

Firestone Walker Parabola Clone (Extract)

Thanks to GB2k for the original AllGrain recipe on BYO.com.

A special thanks to BrewnWKopperKat (and others) on HomebrewTalk.com for the time, effort, and advice to help me convert the original recipe to 6 gallon Extract with Specialty Grains.

1647442637406.png


2oz Columbus (Tomahawk) Hops at 60 Minutes
2oz Hallertauer Hops at 30 minutes
2 packets of Safale US-05 rehydrated yeast
1 Whirfloc tablet at 15 minutes
½ Tsp Yeast Nutrient at 15 minutes
2oz American Medium Toasted Oak Cubes
8oz Bourbon of choice


Instructions:
Soak Oak Cubes in Bourbon for at least 3 weeks before ready for secondary fermenter.

Thoroughly mix all grains (if not already mixed) and separate into two or three large muslin bags. Heat 2.5 gallons of water to 160 degrees and steep the grains for 30 minutes. Pull bags, put on strainer, and sparge slowly with 1 gallon of 160 degree water.

Add ½ of the Pale Ale LME, ½ of the Munich LME, and ½ of the Dextrose. Stir until dissolved, fire up the burner, and bring to boil. This is a 60-minute boil.

Add Columbus hops at 60 minutes, Hallertauer hops at 30 minutes, then Whirlfloc tablet and Yeast Nutrient at 15 minutes.

Add the remaining LME and Dextrose at flame-out and stir until dissolved.

Chill the wort to 65 degrees while topping off to 6 gallons using cold water. Stir thoroughly to ensure mixing of wort and water.

While wort is chilling rehydrate yeast per manufacturer’s instructions.

Since this is a 6-gallon brew split the wort equally into two primary fermenters (unless you have an 8-gallon or larger fermenter). Measure OG. Aerate/Oxygenate each thoroughly (I use an Oxygenation Kit) and pitch yeast. After 12 hours aerate/oxygenate again but lightly this time.

Ferment at 65 degrees for the first 3-4 days then rise to lower 70's until finished.

Add soaked Oak Cubes (including Bourbon) to secondary fermenter. Rack into secondary on top of cubes. Age in secondary for 1 month (or to taste). Bottle or keg and let age for 6 months.
 
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eric19312

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this sounds like it could be a super tasty beer.

biggest challenge isn't going to be making the wort exactly right but getting a clean and complete fermentation on this monster. I'd add another pack of dry yeast. It is cheap insurance given cost of the rest of the ingredients. Make sure your oxygen can is full before you brew. Go heavy on first dose of O2 but easy on the second dose of O2. Pay attention to actual fermentation temperature of the wort. I'd start it at 65F, hold it at that temperature for about 3-4 days, and then let temperature free rise to low 70s. Hold it at 72F until it is done. Perhaps rouse it a couple times as it finishes.

Getting the recipe right will only get you near the pro beer you are trying to clone if you conduct a quality fermentation. On other hand, even with the recipe somewhat off, if you make a 1.117 OG stout wort and conduct a high quality fermentation (and do a good job with sanitation and packaging) you should expect to make a tasty beer.
 
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BoitAHL

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I'd add another pack of dry yeast

I was thinking about that. Adding another pack of US-05 to help ensure good fermentation. Recently did an Imprint Black Forest Cake Stout Clone, split the primary fermentation in two, and used 4 packs of Mangrove Jacks M42. Very aggressive fermentation and gravity went from 1160 to 1060. In secondary now on Cholaca and vanilla beans. Really excited about that beer.
 
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BoitAHL

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I'd start it at 65F, hold it at that temperature for about 3-4 days, and then let temperature free rise to low 70s. Hold it at 72F until it is done

I can absolutely do those temps but of course they are external room temps. I do not have the equipment to measure internal temps. :(
 
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BoitAHL

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Taste testing Whiskey/Bourbon for soaking my cubes. These three were highly rated by "experts" on Totalwine.com. Since i can't decide which one I like best I'm using a combo of all three. :p:mug:
 

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eric19312

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I can absolutely do those temps but of course they are external room temps. I do not have the equipment to measure internal temps. :(

not good - this fermentation could easily heat itself up to 10F above ambient temperature and that could be a real problem

get a stick on thermometer or an IR thermometer or perhaps you have a nice meat thermometer you could tape to the side of the fermentor with insulation over it.
be prepared with a swamp chiller set up if temps are getting higher than you want... something like what this guy did:
.
 

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Let's find guidance from Fermentis and "do the math".

1647600761383.png
source: current Fermentis US-05 product information​
Convert from hl (100 liters, hectoliters) to U.S. gallons:​
1647600908721.png
Scale guidance to batch size​
1647600968350.png

Fermentis recommends re-hydration with high gravity worts in a number of videos in the 2020 / 2021 time-frame.

Two or three packages of rehydrated US-05 looks like a good starting point.


1647602256887.png

With a wort that is close to the "alcohol tolerance" level for the specific strain, an extra package would be "cheap insurance".

My suggestion (go with 'cheap insurance'): three packages of re-hydrated US-05.
 
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