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TacoGuthrie

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Just brewed up the all amarillo ipa recipe in the data base here. I used all the same ingredients except I used LME instead of DME but i multipled the amount by 1.1 to correct.

Recipe calls for an OG of 1.067. I just took my OG and it read 1.030!!

Two things

1- What can I do to fix it?

2- What could cause such a difference?
 

The Pol

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You didnt mix well prior to the sample being drawn. This happens about 5x a week or so. You really cant screw up an OG on an extract brew, if you have the correct final volume.

OR your hydrometer is REALLY off.

Bottom line, your OG is fine, the beer will be great, just test that hydrometer and mix better next time.
 
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TacoGuthrie

TacoGuthrie

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I have already pitched the yeast and spun the heck outta the primary bucket for a few minutes. I took another reading right now and it says ~1.034. should i mix more?

I tested the hydrometer in some water and it's reading fine.
 

The Pol

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How much extract did you put in a 5 gallon batch?

If you used the correct ammount, the sugar is in there. The yeast will find it... regardless of the hydro reading. No need to keep mixing. How much LME????
 

flyangler18

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I have already pitched the yeast and spun the heck outta the primary bucket for a few minutes. I took another reading right now and it says ~1.034. should i mix more?

I tested the hydrometer in some water and it's reading fine.
Provided you measured your volumes correctly, your OG would be as written. When topping off to your final volume, it takes a good 5 minutes of very vigorous stirring to get everything incorporated properly. At this point, I'd not worry. The yeast will properly mixed everything once things take off.
 
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TacoGuthrie

TacoGuthrie

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recipe calls for 7lbs Muntons Xtra Light dme

I put in 7.5 lbs pale LME.
 

The Pol

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recipe calls for 7lbs Muntons Xtra Light dme

I put in 7.5 lbs pale LME.
Promash sayes 1.056 for the OG with that much LME in 5 gallons. So, Id bet you actually have 1.056

7lbs of DME shows 1.064


Many people never take OGs with extract, simply because you have 100% eff. Your OG should be 1.056 with this batch as stated.
 

ACo

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are you sure you used the hydrometer right? cause that should not be right with the amount of DME u used...
 
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TacoGuthrie

TacoGuthrie

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hmm. thanks for checking that.

curious if it is my hydrometer.

is putting my hydrometer in water a good test? i did that and it reads correctly.

edit: this was @ the pol
 

The Pol

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hmm. thanks for checking that.

curious if it is my hydrometer.

is putting my hydrometer in water a good test? i did that and it reads correctly.
That is the only test... so it is good.

#1 your OG is 1.056, it is low, you did not use enough LME
#2 it is just a mixing issue, but that is no issue, the sugar is there
 

flyangler18

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hmm. thanks for checking that.

curious if it is my hydrometer.

is putting my hydrometer in water a good test? i did that and it reads correctly.
It's not your hydrometer. You didn't sufficiently mix the concentrated wort with the top off water, so you're getting a skewed reading, plus you didn't add enough LME to get you to your intended OG. That's all.

RDWHAHB, mate!
 
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TacoGuthrie

TacoGuthrie

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Alright, now we're getting somewhere! DME:LME is not a 1:1 substitution.

The Rule of Thumb conversion is 1 lb = .75 LME = .6 DME.
I was using Renny's conversion in this post.

7 DME * 1.1 = 7.7 LME.

I did short it by .2 though.

Did i do something wrong?
 
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TacoGuthrie

TacoGuthrie

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Ok Ok.

I'm just gonna mix it up a bit and let it do its thing.

Thanks for all your help you two.
 

The Pol

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I was using Renny's conversion in this post.

7 DME * 1.1 = 7.7 LME.

I did short it by .2 though.

Did i do something wrong?
You needed 9lbs of LME to hit 1.067...

Revvy is a smart dude, but in this case the 1.1 factor was wrong. Sorry... this is where brewing software is a huge help.

Your beer will be great though, better than the swill at the store ;)
 

dontman

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Your OG was 1.054. Doesn't matter what your hydrometer said. When you are doing extract it never matters what your hydro says. The math is always right.
 
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TacoGuthrie

TacoGuthrie

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You needed 9lbs of LME to hit 1.067...

Revvy is a smart dude, but in this case the 1.1 factor was wrong. Sorry... this is where brewing software is a huge help.

Your beer will be great though, better than the swill at the store ;)
dang. So can a noob get an explanation as to how this is going to affect the outcome of this particular brew? How different is it gonna taste to what the original recipe was aiming for?

Recipe Type: Extract
Yeast: Safale - 05
Yeast Starter: No
Additional Yeast or Yeast Starter: No
Batch Size (Gallons): 5
Original Gravity: 1.067
Final Gravity: 1.016
IBU: 45
Boiling Time (Minutes): 60
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 7 days at 60 deg
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 3 weeks at 60 deg

7lbs Muntons Extra Light DME
1/2lb Crystal 40

Steeped in 1.5 gallons of 160 deg water for 20 minutes.

1.5 oz Amarillo 8%AA for 60 Min
1 oz Amarillo 8%AA for for 15 Min
1 oz Amarillo 8%AA for for 5 Min
.5 oz Amarillo 8%AA for at flameout
 

flyangler18

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Flavorwise, I don't think it'll be substantially different at all; just slightly lower ABV.
 

The Pol

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Less alc.

Lighter body (less residual sugar)

Slightly more bitter (less sugar/IBU)

It will be great beer though, you just created a recipe!
 

ChshreCat

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One thought.

Are you sure you had 7.5 lbs of LME? Did you weight it out yourself or just tell the LHBS you wanted 7.5 and they handed you a container?

If so, I'd wonder if they mixed up and shorted you on accident.
 
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TacoGuthrie

TacoGuthrie

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One thought.

Are you sure you had 7.5 lbs of LME? Did you weight it out yourself or just tell the LHBS you wanted 7.5 and they handed you a container?

If so, I'd wonder if they mixed up and shorted you on accident.
I've thought of that one. I had three plastic containers of pre measured LME from the LHBS. Each one said 2.5lbs. I did measure one before using it and it came in at 2lbs 6.5 oz which isn't far off but that was including the container too.
 

ssabin

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You know, I find myself a bit puzzled now. The standard conversion I have learned is that going from DME to LME you need 1.25 as much. When going from LME to DME, you need 0.8 times as much (which is 1/1.25).

However, in "How to Brew", it mentions that DME has about 40 points per pound, whereas LME generally has 36 points/pound. And as an example, the book states that 5 lbs of DME and 5.5 lbs of LME will both achieve the same OG.

So maybe Revvy deserves some love here?

Has anyone actually measured typical extracts for their actual gravity properties? I would guess there is some variability. Palmer's book also states that DME typically runs 1.40 to 1.43 per pound in a gallon of solution, suggesting that perhaps 41.5 points is the correct mid-range, whereas LME runs 1.34 to 1.38 (consistent with the 36 points for LME bogey).

At any rate, like many others have suggested, the actual OG generally has to be equal to what you put in divided by the volume of solution. Unless your extract was bad or diluted somehow, your OG should be in the range of 1.56 (using 36 points for the LME in 5 gallons total wort and 7.5 lbs of LME), or 1.051 if you finish with 5.5 gallons into your fermentor, which is a common volume for brewing 5 gallon batches.

I am also guessing there are steeped grains providing some fermentables in this recipe as 7 lbs of DME in 5 gallons only gets the OG to 1.058.

When you transfer the wort to the fermentor, it's a good idea to pour the wort back-and forth between the fermentor and the boiling pot, or shake it if in a carboy. This will help homogenous the solution as well provide some oxygen for the yeast. It should also provide and almost foolproof way of reading your OG correctly.
 

The Pol

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In all three of my separate brewing software programs...

DME = about 1.046 points
LME = about 1.037 points

Which is about 1.25x as much LME to DME

Check out the Briess and other manufacturers sites as well, they support these numbers. Meaning, you need 1.25X as much LME as DME in a recipe to get the same OG
 
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TacoGuthrie

TacoGuthrie

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hi folks.

so i've been thinking about it for an hour or so and yeah, I didn't pour the wort back and forth into the water like I''ve done before.

now that its been in the bucket about 2 hrs is there any point in pouring it back and forth now? or do i just let it do its thing?

all i can say to that mistake is d'oh!
 

ChshreCat

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Let 'er be. As much as you say you've stirred it, I'm sure it's got enough O2 in it. It's not a big beer, after all.
 

dontman

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We really should start a charity to sponsor reearch into cures for noobitus. There is a lot of needless suffering and worry going on. :)
 

llazy_llama

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For just pennies a day, you can help us find a cure for noobitus. Nah, wouldn't work. The cure is already there in the stickies and in the search feature. It's more a matter of delivery. How can we get people to read the stickies and search the forums?

Hell if I know.

(I don't mind the low OG posts, mostly because one of my first posts here was the exact same thing. It just didn't occur to me that someone else could have made the exact same mistake.)
 
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TacoGuthrie

TacoGuthrie

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I usually do search but this time I'm afraid I just hit the big read panic button and thought if I got to y'all fast I could get a quick answer.

I'll let everyone know how my new recipe turns out. :mug:
 

dontman

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For just pennies a day, you can help us find a cure for noobitus. Nah, wouldn't work. The cure is already there in the stickies and in the search feature. It's more a matter of delivery. How can we get people to read the stickies and search the forums?

Hell if I know.

(I don't mind the low OG posts, mostly because one of my first posts here was the exact same thing. It just didn't occur to me that someone else could have made the exact same mistake.)
Actually I don't believe the cure is really right there. Because every problem is unique.

More importantly, because there is a newb reading these last couple posts, we are totally just kidding around with you. We don't mind seeing the same questions day after day. What it means is that new people are picking this obsession on a daily basis. And this can be nothing but good.

So :mug: welcome, do your best to be patient and this beer will reward you. You could do some terrible things to this beer and it would never even shudder. It will still be a champ when you get through.

To me the most important piece of waiting to do is the three weeks after you bottle until your first sip.
 

ssabin

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Thanks for the post, Pol. It just seems a bit strange that John Palmer could be - wrong?

This is timely as I am putting together a spreadsheet to calculate OG and IBU for extract recipes. The twist from what I understand is in most brewing software is that it has flexibility to properly account for hop utilization depending on what times the eaxtracts are added, in addition to the hop times.

Granted, the difference isn't large, but I always like this sort of thing to be as "good" as possible. Perhaps I'll change the "Generic" values for DME and LME to the numbers you posted. The user can always override them as well.

I'll post this spreadsheet (probably on the extract forum) when I get it a bit more refined and tested.
 

The Pol

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Thanks for the post, Pol. It just seems a bit strange that John Palmer could be - wrong?

This is timely as I am putting together a spreadsheet to calculate OG and IBU for extract recipes. The twist from what I understand is in most brewing software is that it has flexibility to properly account for hop utilization depending on what times the eaxtracts are added, in addition to the hop times.

Granted, the difference isn't large, but I always like this sort of thing to be as "good" as possible. Perhaps I'll change the "Generic" values for DME and LME to the numbers you posted. The user can always override them as well.

I'll post this spreadsheet (probably on the extract forum) when I get it a bit more refined and tested.
John Palmer has been wrong before. Have you read some of the homebrewing "rules" from the 80's? Wow... much has changed.

Also, the numbers I got, were from Briess and Muntons... I think they know the gravity point value of thier products better than Palmer. Like I said, do the research. I have never brewed extract, but did some research when this post came up... the manufacturers of LME and DME know thier product, and thier numbers support the idea of 1.25lbs LME to one pound of DME, that is all I am saying. I trust the manufacturer over Palmer... the manufacturers values are what are loaded in the top three or four brewing software applications. That is where I got the 1.25lbs of LME to 1lb of DME.
 

goetzUM

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I've been getting extremely low hydrometer readings as well. The hydrometer works fine in water. I get a reading of 1. But my last two batches have had OGs around 1.030 when the recipe said they should be much higher.
 

The Pol

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I've been getting extremely low hydrometer readings as well. The hydrometer works fine in water. I get a reading of 1. But my last two batches have had OGs around 1.030 when the recipe said they should be much higher.

If it is extract, poor mixing is generally the problem. It is quite difficult to get the sugars from extract mixed well enough to get a good reading.
 
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