Raspberry, Vanilla, Coconut & Chocolate with hops

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crusader1612

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I recently judged my first BJCP competition over here in NZ, and we came across what was called a "Jellytip Stout"
(In New Zealand a Jelly tip is an icecream on a stick using coconut/vanilla icecream as the main base, with a raspberry jelly top section, and covered in chocolate). google if if you want, they';re quite yummy.

Anyways, it got mye thinking about NE IPA style beers, and in particular Milkshake IPA.
Mainly because the next beer judged was a Raspberry Pale Ale, which has nice fresh Raspberry flavours, but loacked hop character.

So my thoughts were this,
brew up a simple NEIPA, eliminating the crystals and carapils etc. load up on the main hops at the end, with a touch of lactose as per milkshake "guidelines", then add roasted cacao nibs, raspberry, and a vanilla pod as well as hefty dryhopping, for a hoppy Jelly-tip IPA, I'm just wondering how these flavours would marry with the hops. Raspberries, would work , but the Chocolate I'm not so sure about. The coconut works with each individual element too.

I know it seems like throwing the kitchen sink at a beer, but thats what homebrew is, experimentation, and it'd be just a one-off.

any tips etc?
my thoughts were (note, all measurements in metric):

- A simple Pale, Wheat and flaked oats malt bill
- 100-150g lactose at the end of the boil
- plenty of galaxy, citra, and mosaic (unless you think other hops would be better) at flameout, whirlpool and dryhop (big big amounts for juicyness)
- 1 vanilla pod to secondary
- 60-80g roasted cacao nibs (im am wondering about leaving them unroasted, to keep the cacao from being bitter)
- 2kg fresh/frozen raspberries (hibiscus is an option for colour as well, to get it a bright red/pinkish colour).

Yeast would be WLP007, conan or 1318
 

Northern_Brewer

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I recently judged my first BJCP competition over here in NZ, and we came across what was called a "Jellytip Stout"
(In New Zealand a Jelly tip is an icecream on a stick using coconut/vanilla icecream as the main base, with a raspberry jelly top section, and covered in chocolate)....

nice fresh Raspberry flavours, but loacked hop character....I'm just wondering how these flavours would marry with the hops. Raspberries, would work , but the Chocolate I'm not so sure about.
To be honest my immediate thoughts are firstly, you're in danger of having so many flavours going on - even before you add the hops - that you end up smearing them into a single shade of grey rather having each flavour popping out, so I'd worry first about how you express those flavours cleanly and distinctly. Secondly - none of them sound particularly complimentary to hops. How often do you have a Jelly Tip and think "I wish I could dip this in a hoppy IPA"?

I must admit, my first thought is to use the same trick that Jelly Tips do and use different phases to separate the flavours - think tequila sunrise. The quick-n-dirty way to do it would be to carefully pour some raspberry-flavoured syrup under a layer of coconut/vanilla milk stout. If you're wanting to do it with beer, then most of the obvious options for a raspberry beer - wheat, lambic, sour - would probably end up lighter than a typical stout. Maybe if you went for a light, Mackeson-type milk stout underlain by a raspberry-flavoured tripel or saison, that could work - I think you want the raspberry as a surprise at the end rather than the beginning. And no, it wouldn't work in a competition without some flexing of the rules!

Personally I think the big problems I have with most raspberry beers is that a)they cook them into a jammy mess and b) they forget that what makes raspberries so delicious is the balance between sweetness and acidity, the tartness is an essential part of their appeal. It seems really difficult even for commercial brewers to get that freshness and balance into a raspberry beer, too often they're sickly jammy sweet with nothing to balance them. That's going to be even more of a problem if you're looking to include them directly into a beer with lactose.
 
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crusader1612

crusader1612

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To be honest my immediate thoughts are firstly, you're in danger of having so many flavours going on - even before you add the hops - that you end up smearing them into a single shade of grey rather having each flavour popping out, so I'd worry first about how you express those flavours cleanly and distinctly. Secondly - none of them sound particularly complimentary to hops. How often do you have a Jelly Tip and think "I wish I could dip this in a hoppy IPA"?

I must admit, my first thought is to use the same trick that Jelly Tips do and use different phases to separate the flavours - think tequila sunrise. The quick-n-dirty way to do it would be to carefully pour some raspberry-flavoured syrup under a layer of coconut/vanilla milk stout. If you're wanting to do it with beer, then most of the obvious options for a raspberry beer - wheat, lambic, sour - would probably end up lighter than a typical stout. Maybe if you went for a light, Mackeson-type milk stout underlain by a raspberry-flavoured tripel or saison, that could work - I think you want the raspberry as a surprise at the end rather than the beginning. And no, it wouldn't work in a competition without some flexing of the rules!

Personally I think the big problems I have with most raspberry beers is that a)they cook them into a jammy mess and b) they forget that what makes raspberries so delicious is the balance between sweetness and acidity, the tartness is an essential part of their appeal. It seems really difficult even for commercial brewers to get that freshness and balance into a raspberry beer, too often they're sickly jammy sweet with nothing to balance them. That's going to be even more of a problem if you're looking to include them directly into a beer with lactose.
It works in competition, under 34C - Experimental beer, explain your purpose and base style, and include any special ingredients used.

but your right in regards to balancing the beer, it'll be difficult to get flavours layered throughout, but i think its do-able (the chocolate is my only real major concern in a pale hoppy beer).
Flavoured syrups are out for me, as its easier and cheaper to source fresh or frozen raspberries.

but thanks foryour input, it helps me in my quest forward. I'll keep you posted.
 

Northern_Brewer

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It works in competition, under 34C - Experimental beer, explain your purpose and base style, and include any special ingredients used.
Sure - but the thing I was thinking of involved not one but two separate beers, and a special pour like a pousse-café - which is stretching the norms of beer competitions to the limits! Not that beer competitions really matter....

it'll be difficult to get flavours layered throughout, but i think its do-able (the chocolate is my only real major concern in a pale hoppy beer).
Flavoured syrups are out for me, as its easier and cheaper to source fresh or frozen raspberries.
The flavoured syrup was only a quick-n-dirty way of getting the necessary difference in density for the pousse-café to work - easy enough to make your own syrup from fresh, but it was more a proof-of-principle for doing it with a separate raspberry beer.

People are doing things with chocolate in pale beers - white stouts and such like - but that's why I suggested a milk stout as a better starting point than a NEIPA. Then if you want to pile on the hops as well, it becomes the bastard offspring of a NEIPA and Mackeson.
 
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