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Raspberry Sour Beer Experiment

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Mr. Nice Guy

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OK... I'm not going to try to classify this beer because I don't know what it is, maybe ya'll can help. I decided to make a sour raspberry beer my own wierd way, lol... here it goes...

:mug:

I took a gallon of water and put in a pound of extra light DME and a 1/4 cup of honey, boiled it for a while, then added my starter. The starter was a slurry from a sourdough starter I made and a cup of the boiled beer. The starter is only wheat flour and water which is naturally soured from the lactobacillus on the wheat. I let this sit for 2 days wrapped in a sleeping bag over a heater vent. The first day it was only a little sour, but the second, wow, super sour and actively fermenting as well. I then took my sour and boiled it for a couple of hours with anothr 1/4 cup honey, 1/4 cup lactose and a teaspoon of oven aged argentine cascade hops. It had no hop smell that I could percieve but boy did it stink up the house, so sour I could hardly take it. I let this cool till it seemed cool enough (did I mention I broke my thermometer moments before I needed it!) and pitched some muntons ale yeast and a tiny pinch of yeast nutrient because of all that honey. It tben fermented rapidly for a day and built up an inch or so of lees (and trub too, oops). It has now been a week and as soon as my wife and I can drink another gallon of Carlo Rossi (yeah I know...) I will rack onto 36 oz of raspberries and let it ferment for a month or so before racking again. I'll probably add more lactose too, I want a little sweetness with the berries, to me they need it.

I'll update this as appropriate, and maybe when not as well, who knows...

I guess I have a Frambdoughzen, wow really bad joke...

:mug: :fro: :rockin:
 

ericd

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You boiled it after you added your souring culture?
 
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Mr. Nice Guy

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Yes, this is a technique I got out of one of Charlie Papazian's books. It is a "sour mash" beer, some people call them pLambics or psuedo Lambics. It is not a Lambic though, just a different type of sour beer. I wanted to do something different but I am not up to making a real lambic yet, they have to age so long. Lindeman's Frambozen was my inspiration.

I watched this show last night, "Three Sheets," it is about this guy who experiences drinking culture all over the world, he went to Delerium and Orval Breweries in Belgium... pretty cool...
 
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Mr. Nice Guy

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OK...
I racked onto 36 ounces of raspberries yesterday. I brought them to 150 for 10 minutes or so with a splash of water and a teaspoon of turbinado sugar. The berries are being pushed forcefully to the top of my fermenter and yesterday night I let off some berries so my airock wouldn't clog. I tried the vodka in the airlock, mmm raspberry vodka...This morning, full airlock again, I just left it like that in the bathtub.
I tried the beer on its own before racking onto the berries and was very pleased with it, I think it will be great. I'm actually kind of surprised, I thought it might be pretty bad, lol...
 
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Mr. Nice Guy

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Update:
So the night I just "left it like that in the bathtub" it exploded with great force! I had a plug of raspberry on my ceiling, and all over the walls up to 10 feet away. Seriously bad! The next day, being so smart and all, I bought another bag of raspberries thinking it would be a solution to all that headspace left, and hey, the fermentation had mostly stopped. Guess what... another explosion! This time I just left a bunch of headspace, I gave up. The good thing is it tasted GOOD, better than lindemans I thought. I'm going to get a 3/4 gallon carboy soon and rack it off the berries, hopefully it isn't oxidized.

I now know, no more fruit in a mostly filled carboy, I left a few inches in my gallon but it needed more. It was strange how the fruit "levitates" ovet the CO2.

[/IMG]
 

Lou

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Update:
The next day, being so smart and all, I bought another bag of raspberries thinking it would be a solution to all that headspace left, and hey, the fermentation had mostly stopped. Guess what... another explosion!
:confused:

it sounds to me like you wanted another explosion...:D
 

noisy123

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I am trying something very similar. I let the wort sour with a handful of grains. Then boiled. I have not added fruit, but the blow-off has been intense. Its in a 6 gallon fermenter and the 5.75 gallon batch has blown off 0.5 gallons or so of brew. Its quite spectacular. I wonder why soured worts seem so explosive? I haven't ever seen this kind of activity with hefe's.
 
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Mr. Nice Guy

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This beer also fermented almost completely in 24 hours. The lees after 12 hours were an inch thick and this is a gallon batch. Explosive is right.

Lou, looking back it was stupid to add more berries so fast but I had added 3 bags before plus 1 tsp sugar (why!) and the second addition was just one bag.

I'm making a blackberry cider today by adding blackberries to some apfelwein that is starting to clear, I am using a 2 gal stainless bucket for 1 gallon, I learned my lesson!
 

Saccharomyces

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Wow, looks like a blast!

Blast, hehe. :p

I'll be trying my own sour beer experiment this weekend, we will see how it goes. I'm also contemplating using harvested wild yeast from fruit to make apfelwein. I have empty gallon juice bottles just lying around which is practically criminal.. :cross:
 
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Mr. Nice Guy

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Today I racked into a 3/4 gallon carboy on to some pectic enyme. The sourness is serious! I think this is going to be very good, I'll probably let it sit for a month or so now.

My 3/4 gallon carboy has a huge lid, I think I would have to special order a bung. Will I be OK with aluminum foil as an airlock?
 

avaserfi

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Any updates on this? It have had requests to make something similar and am curious about how the quicker "lambic" is working out.
 
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Mr. Nice Guy

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OK...
I let this beer sit in the tertiary for a month and it looks wonderful. It has cleared up nicely!

I went ahead and bottled today, it tastes awesome, even better that I hoped for. BTW, that was just the yeasty dregs at the bottom of the carboy, and warm too.

The beer tastes just like a raspberry, the same sourness and everything. The only thing I am going to change when I do this again is the method I use. Fruit gets an open fermenter! I would also make more than a gallon so after two rackings I still had a gallon. I only wound up with a six pack, lol...

This doesn't taste like Lindemans but I bet it would if I had doubled the lactose, I like it a little tangy though... this is just like biting into a raspberry. Now all I need to do is wait for it to carb.
 
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Mr. Nice Guy

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I finaly tasted the beer and it is awesome! It is very sour but not overpowering and it tastes just like raspberries.

You realy can't detect malt or hops, just raspberry flavor. I really can't percieve any taste from the lactose either, maybe doubling it would make something sweet and sour.

Try it, you'll like it!
 
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Mr. Nice Guy

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I tried this again and it is awesome. The raspberry taste is very up front and the sourness really adds to it. It almost tastes like it has to have some raspberry flavoring in it but in a good way. The color is killer too, raspberry red and crystal clear.

If you like beer with a hint of raspberry, this is not for you. This is more like raspberry soda with hardly any sugar in it. I'm going to age it for a while, it would be a great aperitif or desert beer. I still can't detect any hops or malt either. The lactose must have made it less sour but this is not sweet in any way, it is very tart.

:D
 

Indiana Red

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MNG,
That sounds De-Lish! I just secured 3 54oz containers of raspberry puree and am thinking oof a couple brews to make with it. Something very similar to Lindemans is what I too, have in mind.
Could you summarize and streamline your recipe including all the "i would do it differently next time" etc. ?

I have been thinking a lot about this project and am ready to go for it this summer.
 
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Mr. Nice Guy

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MNG,
That sounds De-Lish! I just secured 3 54oz containers of raspberry puree and am thinking oof a couple brews to make with it. Something very similar to Lindemans is what I too, have in mind.
Could you summarize and streamline your recipe including all the "i would do it differently next time" etc. ?

I have been thinking a lot about this project and am ready to go for it this summer.
Here is a simplified 5 gal recipe:

5# Extra Light DME
12 oz honey (honey bear!) at flameout
10-15# frozen raspberries (I used the equivalent of 15#, freeze and thaw twice)
2 oz oven aged hops 4-6% AA 60 minutes
5 oz lactose
Neutral ale yeast (I used muntons but anything else would probably be an improvement; nottingham, s-04, us-05, etc...)
lacto culture

Make a regular wort with the DME and hops. Let this sit overnight or until very sour with a lacto culture. I used a sourdough culture for this. The next day boil for a few minutes with lactose, flameout, add honey, cool, then pitch yeast. Let ferment for a few days until vigorous fermentation is over. Add the raspberries in a grain bag (sterilized with heat, campden or nothing) pull the bag out after a week or so. Rack to secondary after fermentation is over then age for a month.

Bottle with 5 oz corn sugar, age for a few weeks. Refrigerate for a month or so and ENJOY!

Note: to oven age your hops cook them on low for 2-4 hours. For the lacto you can let some grains sit overnight in your brew pot instead, I'll look the method up for those of you who want to try it/ don't have a culture handy. (credit to Charlie Papazian for this tip)

Try adding 1# lactose instead of 5 oz if you want this to be sweet.
 

leviticus

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Hey Mr, you still making this? Any updates to the process you would suggest? Gonna have to figure out the lacto culture prior to doing it, but I wanna give it a shot.
 

BenjaminBier

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omg dude, nicely bumped thread. i'm going to try this as well. the wifey loves framboise, and i gotta say, i can drink a few of them without complaining.

For the lacto, lots of different ways to get it. What Mr. Nice Guys is taling about is basically a sour mash. He used a sourdough "mash" of flour and water, but you can use brewing grains and water, too. ReverseApacheMaster here at homebrewtalk has a detailed write-up on sour mashing at his blog. The quick and dirty is you mix a portion of milled grain with a portion of 100F+ water and let it sit for a day or two until it sours.

I'm going to try Mr. NG's version but all-grain and i'm gonna sour the whole mash, aw snap!
 

BenjaminBier

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Here are some sour mash directions for a 3 gallon batch.

Reserve about a cup of milled grains until you are done mashing.

Dough in with 6 # US 2-Row and .25# US Carapils into 8 Qt 165F water and rest for 60 mins, should stabilize around 150F for sacch rest.



When conversion is complete, stir in your reserved grains and cover the surface with foil to limit exposure to oxygen. I didn't photo this but you can imagine what a cup of milled grains sitting next to this pot would look like.



Cover and let sit at 100F+ for 24 hours. Here I'm using a heating pad from the local pharmacy set to high.



After 24 hours, heat sparge water to 180F. You will need about 10 qts of water at 180F. You are going to "tea bag" sparge this twice. See Deathbrewer's Easy All-Grain instructions.

When you remove the foil, you are going to see that air is trapped under your grains. The smell is sour milky. You may have a bit of rotten garbage smell in there, but the warmer you keep your sour mash, the better smelling it will be.



When you drain out your mash, you don't get very much wort out of it - it is sour, thick, juicy, and trapped on the grains. Here's what I got out of my first tea bag "runnings," I'm guessing about 3 qts. Thus your sparge water is nice and hot and you want to "tea bag" sparge twice - once in 6 qts and again in the last 4 qts of water.



Boil, hop, cool, aerate as usual

 

BenjaminBier

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Oh man, I never boiled a sour mash before - that really stank. The beer itself was rotten to smell up until the last week. I just transferred to tertiary to clear, it's tasting nicely tart and slightly sour.

I did add a full pound of lactose to attempt a sweeter flavor but it isn't really sweet at all - just very full bodied.
 
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Mr. Nice Guy

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I had one from the original batch recently and it was great!

I haven't brewed it again but the sourdough culture worked great, I haven't had many sour beers I liked as much as this one.
 

JasonToews

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Im currently ageing a lambic at the moment, going to add the rasberries next year but I think I will definately add fermcap hehe seeing your giant rasberry explosion.
 

BenjaminBier

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this ages really well. just cracked one and it's pretty awesome. this bottle I let sit in the fridge for about 4 weeks and it's tasting really really smooth. the aroma is also cleaner.
 

Darkness

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Just a thought BIGER Fermenters a gallon jug really. I don't know where u r located but a good tip for every one, if you have a little Donut Shope near u swing in early and ask them if the have any filling buckets u could buy. They r around three gal and my local shop sells them for 1.50 ea keep it in mind next time the kids or company want some donut holes




Fermenting
Apple Wood Smoked IPA
Imperial Black IPA
Belgium Wit
 

boysbrew2012

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So my sour raspberry pale ale goes a little something like this...makeshift recipe from santa cruz brewery

1 lb Crystal 10L
5 lbs ultralight malt extract
1 oz hallertau
1 oz Pacific Gem

2ndary fermenter
1 can raspberry puree
1 lb hibiscus
1 lb rose hips
1lb maltodextrin

Fingers crossed this recipe rocks!!! Not sure how to apply the rose hips and hibiscus...being they are tea ingredients should i boil them and drain them and add them or boil 1-3 cups with the dry ingredients and add flavored water into fermenter? any ideas?
 

todd46

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boysbrew2012 said:
So my sour raspberry pale ale goes a little something like this...makeshift recipe from santa cruz brewery

1 lb Crystal 10L
5 lbs ultralight malt extract
1 oz hallertau
1 oz Pacific Gem

2ndary fermenter
1 can raspberry puree
1 lb hibiscus
1 lb rose hips
1lb maltodextrin

Fingers crossed this recipe rocks!!! Not sure how to apply the rose hips and hibiscus...being they are tea ingredients should i boil them and drain them and add them or boil 1-3 cups with the dry ingredients and add flavored water into fermenter? any ideas?
Raspberry and rose hips, sounds tasty to me, I'm curious how this comes out. I think a full pound of maltodextrin is way too much though, I'd halve that at least (unless you've used that much before and liked it).
 

boysbrew2012

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todd46 said:
Raspberry and rose hips, sounds tasty to me, I'm curious how this comes out. I think a full pound of maltodextrin is way too much though, I'd halve that at least (unless you've used that much before and liked it).
I used a 1lb of maltodextrin in a cream ale since I don't have a keg yet it seemed only natural to attempt it so we shAll see how it holds up during the aging process....also added a pound in my galaxy IPA for a creamy finish so time will tell. My mantra when brewing is go big or go home!!
 

boysbrew2012

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So I am back with an update or question really.....I used canned raspberry puree when i made the wort. It is in the 2ndary fermenter and the razz puree from the bottom is floating to the top. Should I be worried? or is this a good sign and once all the puree has floated to the top, should I bottle???

I should also add it looks like fermentation has kicked in again as my bubbler started up again....it smells fantastic so pretty boggled about now

Never done a sour before so I am curious as to what is going on?

Any insight would be great.

Thanks
 
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