Quick (ish) Flanders?

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sockmerchant

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Before I get all the "There's no such thing!"comments, just hear me out :)

I currently have two oud bruins and flanders red doing its thing... slowly. I also have some brett saison etc etc.

So, while i am waiting for these slow pokes to turn into something... I have been thinking of doing a sour mash with a brown ale, then fermenting it using Wyeast's brett lambicus.

That way I get a bit of control over the amount of lactic acid, and then the brett should give that yummy cherry pie that I so love.

IE, it should equate to something along the lines of an oud bruin within 6 months

Thoughts?

I have contemplated using a second brett to add more complexity (I have whitelabs brett C and trois)... but i might hold off on that.
 

Pogopunx82

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If this helps I did a berliner weisse like beer of a flemish red recipie. Just piched a handful of grain and some dregs and it was tart as hell. I have most of it saved up in a keg to blend with my other flemishs when they are ready, as I think it would be a nice blending base for them.
 

mysteryshrimp

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At a comp last week I had an American Pale that I'm pretty sure just had lactic acid added to it. It had no funk rather than over-the-top sourness, but it was nearly as good as a Petrus Pale (brewed by Brouwerij Bavik). I'm seriously considering trying this.
 
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sockmerchant

sockmerchant

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Cool.

I'm waiting for my rye saison (with brett) to be bottled, then I'm going to try it. I suspect it will yield good results.

It will be as sour as i want it to be, and will still get some of the cool funky fruity stuff that brett can give.

Its still not quick really... But it should get me a decent flanders (ish) beer in half the normal time. Maybe even three months. Will need to see how it goes.
 

Wahoo

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I've always wondered if a brett-fermented beer (either with, or without sacc), that had lactic acid added before packaging, would be a good way to do a poor man's flemish-style beer.

Paul Zocco, from Zok's homebrew shop in CT does a "Rodenzok" which I believe has no brett but rather is fermented clean with lactic acid and sour cherry juice added to it. I've had it at beer festivals and it's good, quick, but doesn't have any funk. I think adding brett to that process would be worth a try.
 

kwadric

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I'd say give it a shot. I've done a Belgian Wit recipe that I fermented with a handful of grain at 100F for seven days and then pitched WL Brux. That beer came out a bit too lactic (should have gone more like three days) and I did not get much Brett funk at all. It tasted a lot like like my Berliner (which I did a 3 day WL Lacto ferment at 100F and then heated the beer to 180F before pitching Sac) except for a very subtle Brett funk note. Of course the Flanders grain bill is quite different than a Belgian Wit.

Brett as the primary strain ferments a lot cleaner than when used as a secondary strain. You might be better off to do the Lacto Ferment, pitch Sac, and then add the Brett once the Sac finished up. I'm not sure.
 
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sockmerchant

sockmerchant

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My fermenters are all tied up so havent had a chance. I started a wyeast lacto starter yesterday. Brew day will be Thursday or Friday next week.
 

redbone

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My fermenters are all tied up so havent had a chance. I started a wyeast lacto starter yesterday. Brew day will be Thursday or Friday next week.
Great! I was hoping that it wasn't a dead project.

:ban:
 

redbone

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Depending on your success I have plans to do a similar thing. I have a proven brown sour recipe (oud bruin) that I wanted to ferment like you would a berliner by throwing 5335 and incubating at 90F for 5-7 days.... then throw some 1007, roselare blend, and french oak cubes at it. The plan would be to keg it in about 2 months and then bottle from the keg allowing it to age in the bottles and start drinking them as they age.
 

kwadric

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I think 5-7 days might be too long. I did three with my Berliner and seven for my lacto Brett beer. I thought the Berliner turned out well, but the lacto Brett beer screams lactic acid with little other flavor.

I'd take a sample at three days and see what it tastes like. You can always leave it going if you aren't happy. The only risk is that the flavor could be mild and but the pH or lactic acid levels are enough to change the performance of the other bugs and yeast you pitch. I don't even have a guess on that.
 

redbone

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I think 5-7 days might be too long. I did three with my Berliner and seven for my lacto Brett beer. I thought the Berliner turned out well, but the lacto Brett beer screams lactic acid with little other flavor.

I'd take a sample at three days and see what it tastes like. You can always leave it going if you aren't happy. The only risk is that the flavor could be mild and but the pH or lactic acid levels are enough to change the performance of the other bugs and yeast you pitch. I don't even have a guess on that.
Without throwing their names out there and putting them on the spot.... the people I've been talking to recommend 5-7 days on Lacto B. @90F followed by 1007 in order to get the MOST acidic results. I've got to take their experience to heart. :) Worst case scenario is that its VERY SOUR... darn. :) heh This is for a Berliner... I've just extrapolated the same process and want to try applying it to a brown sour.
 
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sockmerchant

sockmerchant

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Depending on your success I have plans to do a similar thing. I have a proven brown sour recipe (oud bruin) that I wanted to ferment like you would a berliner by throwing 5335 and incubating at 90F for 5-7 days.... then throw some 1007, roselare blend, and french oak cubes at it. The plan would be to keg it in about 2 months and then bottle from the keg allowing it to age in the bottles and start drinking them as they age.
Cool man. I'd be interested to know how your one turns out too. Mind sharing your oud bruin recipe? I'm in the process of modifying mine a bit.

I wont be using any sacc on the recommendation of Mr madest of fermentationists. I will just let the lacto go for about a week and then pitch the brett lambicus.

For my gose, i only gave it a couple days before pitching the yeast. Needed to give it more time.

I am planning on letting mine go for about 2 months as well. Though, I suspect mine will change less (not much?) over time due to using the brett as the primary yeast.
 

kwadric

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Give it a shot and let us know the results. We'd all like a quicker way to make flanders tasting beers.

I'm certainly not against experimenting. I was just disappointed in my lacto Brett beer and want to offer it as a data point. I did a grain based lacto for 24hrs at 120f before adding the WL lacto and going an additional six days at 120f. I let the temp come back down to room temp and pitched a WL Brett B starter.
 
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sockmerchant

sockmerchant

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Give it a shot and let us know the results. We'd all like a quicker way to make flanders tasting beers.

I'm certainly not against experimenting. I was just disappointed in my lacto Brett beer and want to offer it as a data point. I did a grain based lacto for 24hrs at 120f before adding the WL lacto and going an additional six days at 120f. I let the temp come back down to room temp and pitched a WL Brett B starter.
Yeah i'm just pitching a WY lacto starter. As i said, my gose isnt close to as tart as i was hoping. I'm going to leave it another month and see what happens
 

gamb0056

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I've been thinking about doing something similar. However, I was thinking of doing it even quicker than the 3 - 6 months you're talking about. My plan was to sour mash (or sour wort) for a few days to get the sourness, then boil as usual to kill the lacto, then ferment 'clean' with Brett Brux trois. My thought was that with only brett in primary, it could be ready in typical ale timeframes (with a little extra time for sour mashing), but will hopefully develop a nice fruity ester profile from the lactic acid + trois combo. Still not as complex as the real deal, but hopefully with just enough character to satisfy my 'sour tooth'
 
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sockmerchant

sockmerchant

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Today was brewday. About a week ago I made up just over 1 gallon's worth of wort using dme (1.045) and chucked some grains into it. I kept this at around 30-35C for a week. At the same time I have been stepping up a starter of Wyeast Lacto. I have been having a hard time deciding on how i want to approach the souring.

I decided to use slightly less water in my sparge, and added the gallons worth of sour as all buggery (but very clean otherwise) soured wort to the rest of the wort bringing the total volume in the fermenter up to 23L.

I kept the IBU down to just below 10 to keep the lacto going. I intend to boil some hops later on (hop tea) to bring the bitterness up some more. I heave heard all kinds of calculations that state this adding bitterness with hop tea is a foolish endeavor, but my personal experience indicates otherwise.

Anyhoo.... post boil the wort already has a mild tartness thanks to the gallon of sour wort and to a lesser degree accidulated malt. So, I pitched the Lacto starter and Brett lambicus together. I did not make a starter for the brett and i did not aerate. My thinking is that the brett will have quite a long lag phase (as brett tends to) which will:
a) give the lacto time to do its thing some more
b) provide more of the cherry brett flavours on account of being more stressed.

I consider this whole thing an experiment, so we shall see what comes of it. This is the recipe i used:

Quick Brown Fox
Flanders Brown Ale/Oud Bruin

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 23.0
Total Grain (kg): 6.300
Total Hops (g): 16.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.061 (°P): 15.0
Final Gravity (FG): 1.011 (°P): 2.8
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 6.50 %
Colour (SRM): 19.4 (EBC): 38.2
Bitterness (IBU): 9.3 (Average)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 70
Boil Time (Minutes): 60

Grain Bill
----------------
4.000 kg Golden Promise Malt (63.49%)
1.000 kg Vienna (15.87%)
0.500 kg Caramunich I (7.94%)
0.250 kg Acidulated Malt (3.97%)
0.250 kg Cane Sugar (3.97%)
0.250 kg Special-B (3.97%)
0.050 kg Black Malt (0.79%)

Hop Bill
----------------
16.0 g Styrian Golding Pellet (5% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (0.7 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 64°C for 60 Minutes.
Fermented at 20°C with Wyeast 5526 - Brettanomyces lambicus & Wyeast 5335 – Lactobacillus

If the brett does not ferment it through completely due to too much stress, I will pitch a starter of brett trois as well. I will give it a month or so before making decision however.
 
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sockmerchant

sockmerchant

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Three and a half hours later and the lacto is going nuts in there. The airlock is going and it has a nice layer of froth. Good to know that lacto starter did its job.

Now to wait and see...
 

redbone

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Good updates. I'm excited to hear how it goes in a few more days and hopefully you will do a taste test.

I just did mine this weekend. Its fermenting at 90F like gangbusters with 5335! I'm planning on throwing Roesalare or 1007 to it depending on the gravity reading and taste.

Again, please keep us updated! :)
 
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sockmerchant

sockmerchant

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As mentioned above, I pitched the lacto and brett L at the same time. The brett got started much faster than i was led to believe it would. It pretty nice and tart now, and the brett is getting darn funky. I've had krausen filling the entire head space for 3 days now. Very vigorous.

 
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sockmerchant

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A quick update.

I bottled half of this a couple of weeks ago. I got impatient and tried one last night. Still needs some time to carb up properly, but it is very nice.

It can do with a bit more sourness. However the brett L has made for a very nice beer. Its sitting at about 1.008. So there is a decent amount of maltiness to back it all up.

It tastes a lot like one of my favourite NZ beers, the Galbraith's Strong Ale, which is essentially and english style old ale. It has a very prominent brett character with a bit of sourness.

I am,very happy with how its going. I will check on it again in a few weeks.

The bottles all developed a pelicle though, so there is that.

The rest of the fermenter had some second runnings from a stout I made a few ago added to it. I took about 5L and boiled it with hops for 15 minutes. Its fermented through and tastes quite good so far. I will give it another week or so.

I may be adding some cherry concentrate to it and let that ferment through as well. Or maybe to half of it... we shall see.
 
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sockmerchant

sockmerchant

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Second update.

I tried a bottle from the second half of this brew tonight. Since bottling the first half, I messed around with it some more while it sat around. I added some second runnings from a russian imperial stout, a fair bit of montmorency cherry concentrate, and some oak cubes thats been sitting in red wine.

Overall, I call this a success. Its not massively sour/tart, but its definitely in the flanders brown territory. This half has a lot more depth to it.

The second runnings added a pleasing maltiness up front, which is quickly followed by the pie cherry/ lambicus flavours and a decent amount of tartness/sourness that sticks around for a little while.

I have a lot of bottles of this, but will definitely be repeating this process.

 
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